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| USA Presidential Election 2012 | |
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| Topic Started: Nov 6 2012, 07:27 PM (700 Views) | |
| Sedulius | Nov 8 2012, 11:36 AM Post #26 |
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Field Marshal
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If I remember correctly, there were actually several riots in US cities this year that US media didn't report on. Yeah, I know, I need to find a source... Now that said, I don't know what TO is talking about when it comes to people choosing "fun" because there's a safety net. What safety net exactly? I know I don't see it there. I know I have to get a job if I'm not in college to stay afloat. If I get laid off, it's a pain to get unemployment checks (I'll get them, but only for so long, and it'll be a pain) and to find another job. Life out there is hard, but it seems some of you don't understand that. There is no safety net. That's why we have so many homeless people even in smaller cities. |
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| Menhad | Nov 8 2012, 12:40 PM Post #27 |
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ET2(IDW)
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Say you messed around in High school and didn't pay attention. Say you went partying instead of trying to go to College. Say you got some girl knocked up while dong that. But say you did the right thing and wanted to stick around. And say you knew that if you didn't marry her and just live with her the government would provide a sum of money to help the poor gal. Congrats, you've entered the welfare system. Now say the opposite happens. You get a good college degree, and a decent job. You found the women of your dreams and got married and had a child. But lets say you lose your job, like it moves to China. The government will look at you and say, "Oh you've got the capabilities to get a good job, so go get one." Now lets say more and more jobs are moving to overseas. You can't find any decent paying work, so you take a minimum wage job. But now you've got a wife and child to help support, and probably a college loan and mortgage bill. But still the government will continue to say "Oh you've got the capabilities to get a good job, so go get one." when no good jobs are to be found and what you're making now isn't covering it. Trust me I've been in the welfare system, they look at your education level too, but they don't care why it's that level. High school dropout cause you did too many drugs? Or a high school dropout cause you went to a school system that failed you(I only stayed in high school to play football)? lol doesn't matter. College grad that had to bust their ass to make it through and is now straddled with a large debt? Or a rich kid who got everything paid by his lawyer daddy? lol doesn't matter still college grad. Homeless cause you've had some terrible experiences in life that make it hard to deal with society? Or homeless cause you spend every cent to feed an addiction? lol doesn't matter. (In Florida there are plenty of programs to help the homeless, from government to NGOs) That's my biggest grip with the system. They don't care why you've put yourself in your position. I don't like the idea of supporting someone who made the wrong choices in life even though they had been warned. But I do want to help those who have been failed, never given the chance, or are affected by things outside of their control. And NH, sorry, maybe because it via the internet but what you said sounded racist. I guess I should know you better than to expect that from you. Edited by Menhad, Nov 8 2012, 12:43 PM.
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| Sedulius | Nov 8 2012, 01:25 PM Post #28 |
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Field Marshal
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Okay, I get you're point a lot better now, TO. Basically, the welfare system caters to people who have made bad decisions in life rather than ones that have quite simply fallen on hard times. I agree that just because someone was an idiot and had a kid too young doesn't mean they should automatically get free money. I don't think, however, that someone who has worked through college, is single, not a parent, and is simply having a hard time because of the bad economy and job market should be denied support. The former person has proven themselves a fool. The latter person has proven themselves an asset to society, but society itself is too harsh to use that asset properly. However... Just because someone has proven themselves a fool doesn't mean they should be homeless and starving. But the biggest problem here is that so many of the latter rather than the former type have landed in this same boat. So I get what you're saying. I get your frustration with it. But the solution is to replace the current welfare system with an intelligently designed welfare system. Cutting benefits to so many would only make things worse in the US. The main problem here is next to nothing is being done to change the system. Of course, I think welfare programs need to focus less on providing money and more on getting people work, and they need to be far stricter about it, rather than "Okay, you filled out the proper forms. Here's your money." No. There has to be control. "Okay, you have been properly analyzed by one of our specialists and you have been determined to need this amount of food stamps to live healthily and this amount of money each month to survive. You are now registered in our system. If indeed you misspend your allocated funds, you will be denied further funds." I live on VA checks, so I know exactly how funds must be spent. I can live on less than $1000 a month just fine. And when I do come up short, a lot of times I starve a bit, but I'm resourceful, and I'm able to survive without help from the government. However, admittedly there are times I wouldn't have made it without the help of my parents or friends. Rent is due when rent is due. Of course, my problems are usually caused by VA inefficiency (not getting checks on time, usually). Hmm. This all has me thinking though. Practically speaking, it should only take $1000 a month to live on for anyone. There are around 30 million people in poverty in the US, thus it would take around $30 billion to provide for them. Solution? Of course the welfare system would need to be reformed or replaced first, but even just a 1% raise in taxes on corporation and rich (if you wanted to be "fair", then everybody) would cover far beyond the set up and maintenance costs of the program plus the $30 billion a year without having a large impact on anyone's income. This would be enough, if correctly implemented, to ensure no one was homeless or starving. It's all about control. |
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| New Harumf | Nov 8 2012, 01:58 PM Post #29 |
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Bloodthirsty Unicorn
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$1000 a month would suffice for some. Not all. A mother with 4 kids in school and a crack habit? I don't think so. A chronic alcoholic? Nope. Those young people that don't understand they are poor and have to have the latest I-Mac phone/vaccuum cleaner/massage chair. Nope. Most people would have a hard time on $1000 a month simply because they do not have the discipline to live that way. Oh, and what if they get robbed on the 3rd day of the month? They are screwed. Simple solutions do not exist, but the one-size-fits-all of the current benefits programs does not work at all. I agree with T.O. - try to get benefits with a master's degree, even if it is in a completely obsolete field (like vaccuum tube technology). They don't care. If your score comes up short, you are SOL! |
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| Telosan | Nov 8 2012, 04:39 PM Post #30 |
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The Foremost Intellectual Badass
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I spent months arguing with Social Security to get disability benefits. I have a car loan and rent to pay monthly with no job, experience, or college. Nor do I have the ability to get one due to medical status. However, SS doesn't seem to think moderate to severe hearing loss with yearly degradation for life since 6 months of age counts as a disability. Apparently cancer doesn't either. I eventually managed to get it by lying to them and saying I'm unable to walk due to a car accident and presented the repair bill and insurance payout from a minor guardrail collision I had some time back. 2 weeks later they tried to charge me $7000 in overpayment charges because they claimed they were paying me all the months we were arguing when they shouldn't have. That's since been straightened out too. My insurance is also state owned and was discontinued the whole time I was arguing with them and was cut off again after 2 weeks of activity due to the above fiasco and it took another 4 weeks to get it back. I had alot of doctors appointments, procedures, and a surgery in that long period of inactivity. I have no love for the current system. |
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| Quaon | Nov 8 2012, 04:45 PM Post #31 |
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A Prince Amoung Men-Shoot First and Ask Questions Later
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I worked at a pro bono law organization this past summer and processed intake forms. You guys are severely overestimating how much income these people actually get from the government. Off the top of my head, of those with absolutely no other income, most made around $700 a month from SSD and other sources. That's ignoring food stamps and other things, but still; $1,000 a month is more than the average income of a welfare recipient, at least anecdotally. |
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| Menhad | Nov 8 2012, 05:16 PM Post #32 |
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ET2(IDW)
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Oh yeah I never said they get a lot, but it's once you start adding up all the little things like Section 8, Food stamps, and the National School Lunch Act. Do I think the Defense budget should be slashed? Yes, withdraw from NATO (in doing so stop paying for western Europe's defense), cut unneeded troops and close unneeded bases (this hurts me to type). But should we cut military spending for these kind of programs? Some would say yes, others no. Personally I think charity isn't something that should be forced (via taxes), and the defense of our nation is more important in my eyes. We can't afford to keep blowing money on every little thing to keep everyone happy. We are going to have to make some cuts, and these cuts are going to hurt. But we have to tighten our belts and get through the adversity, cause the more we delay the more it's going to hurt. Edited by Menhad, Nov 8 2012, 05:18 PM.
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| Telosan | Nov 8 2012, 06:50 PM Post #33 |
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The Foremost Intellectual Badass
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Oh yeah, my check is only $400 at best, somewhere between $330 - 360 usually. |
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| Eleytheria-Duo | Nov 9 2012, 06:23 PM Post #34 |
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Resident Bystander
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The next day I awoke to realize it all wasn't a sleeping but a very much living nightmare.Because I actually had faith in the electorate having a functional brain cell or two. Back to losing all faith in humanity, again. Should have never allowed myself to have it in the first place. Worthless, worthless people... -Sigh- I'm not sure which I find more ... interesting. Your disdain for Mormons or your disdain for wealth. I'd rather take a risk with him over one of the most wantonly arrogant and piss-poor presidential track records in history. (IMO) :dry: Oh, and you misspelled billionaire. Anyone got land space for a gardener? I can grow all the food/ornamentals your heart desires. Coffee? Growing my own mini-tree as we speak. Like spicy food? I never treat my chilis as annuals. I'm quick to learn with various firearms, own a bow crafted to Magyar specs, can (usually) fix household appliances, and am not bad with computers... Best of all, if your ultimate goal is to form a movement intent on burning D.C. to the ground, do count me in. |
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| flumes | Nov 9 2012, 07:20 PM Post #35 |
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CLEVELAND ROCKS!
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Lets remember, cost of living varies wildly depending on where you live. $700 a month and food stamps would do more than OK where I live. |
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| East Anarx | Nov 9 2012, 08:07 PM Post #36 |
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Anarchitect
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I find some parts of your post refreshing. In particular the part where it seems like you come to the realization that US federal politics will not bring about the outcomes you want to see. Also the part about how you want to grow things and fix things. But I haven't lost all faith in humanity, simply the institution of coercive government over humanity. Neither do I share your belief that a Romney regime would have represented any substantial deviation from the course followed by the previous Bush and Obama regimes. I'm not interested in "burning DC to the ground," because I believe in peaceful evolution, not violent revolution. That said, if instead of revenge, you actually seek independence, then I hope you find a community where your skills are valued. |
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| Sedulius | Nov 10 2012, 10:53 AM Post #37 |
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Field Marshal
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NH, I get what you're saying, that $1000 a month would be misspent by some, but my argument is that $1000 a month per person is more than enough for anyone to live off of. If someone misspends it, then they're just screwing themselves. I was saying that no more than $1000 a month need be allocated to anyone. But because of the flaw you pointed out, which I hadn't discounted, there has to be some sort of control over the way welfare recipients spend their funds. But I'd rather not get into the discussion on how to do that. ED, I disdain Mormons between my history with them, my extensive knowledge of them, and indeed their own history. The common Mormon is not necessarily a bad person; in fact, I'd say they have just as much variation in good and bad people as any other group. To say otherwise without having lived among them is folly. Having lived among them I understand how they are. My hatred is for the Mormon religion itself, the "church" that it the organization behind it. It is the thing responsible for the atrocities Mormonism has committed and for the sick things it continues to commit. It would be naive to think that a man as powerful as Mitt Romney does not have very close ties to the upper echelons of the Mormon church. Indeed, his family is quite prominent within the Mormon church. I disdain the super-rich because of just how little they do for the people, and how they are running this nation into the ground. I find it interesting that you're losing faith in humanity over a silly election between two pathetic persons. Neither is truly qualified to be president. Perhaps no politician at the federal level is. They are not true leaders. They do not have what it takes. They're all just so... average. Hmm... there was actually a scientific study done recently this year that concluded Americans are too stupid for democracy to work (consider the average American and not yourselves). They actually ran an election simulation based on the statistics they gathered, having a multitude of different leaders available to be elected: the ones that were only slightly above average in leadership skill won every single time. But to restore you faith somewhat, ED, it's not as if the popular vote wasn't close. It was only the electoral vote that had a significant difference, but it's the only thing that counts (which is one reason why this system isn't really a democracy). |
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| New Harumf | Nov 10 2012, 10:53 AM Post #38 |
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Bloodthirsty Unicorn
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Hmm, when I lost my job in Chicago my unemployment was $700 + twice a month. |
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| Union | Nov 19 2012, 07:54 PM Post #39 |
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Pyrenees Republic
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Posted Image ;) |
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| Assassin | Nov 19 2012, 08:20 PM Post #40 |
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Field Marshal
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:thumbup: |
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| Telosan | Nov 20 2012, 05:18 PM Post #41 |
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The Foremost Intellectual Badass
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Interesting short article over on Cracked. It's not really related to the thread's topic, but I didn't feel like making another thread just for this. http://www.cracked.com/quick-fixes/the-7-types-failed-relationship-understood-via-u.s.-wars/ |
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| Menhad | Nov 23 2012, 03:46 PM Post #42 |
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ET2(IDW)
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I know this is pretty late and all but this quiz is pretty good for determining who you closest match politically. Edit: Good, not god Edited by Menhad, Nov 23 2012, 03:53 PM.
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| Comrade Queen | Nov 23 2012, 04:17 PM Post #43 |
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Comrade Bitchqueen
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Predictable result. |
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| East Anarx | Nov 24 2012, 06:47 PM Post #44 |
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Anarchitect
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I expect that test would indicate that I should "side with" Gary Johnson, however, I sided with the winner, Nobody. I think it's important to point out that more people voted for Nobody than for any other candidate. The fact that the office of POTUS is not occupied by Nobody is as clear a demonstration of the illegitimacy of this so-called democratic government as can be found. |
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| Comrade Queen | Nov 24 2012, 07:00 PM Post #45 |
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Comrade Bitchqueen
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I voted for Nobody this year myself. |
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| East Anarx | Nov 27 2012, 03:31 PM Post #46 |
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Anarchitect
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In The End Nobody Wins |
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11:38 AM Jul 13