Latinate vs. Germanic Roots in English

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Latinate vs. Germanic Roots in English
Topic Started: Nov 23 2011, 05:17 PM (189 Views)
Rhadamanthus	Nov 23 2011, 05:17 PM Post #1
Legitimist Posts: 12,945 Group: Admin Member #19 Joined: January 13, 2004	In another thread, TC made a comment alluding to the differences between Latinate and Germanic vocabulary in the English language. Harumf and I expressed interest in further discussion on the subject. I decided to start a thread so that we could focus on that discussion. I am not sure where to start, so I will list two comparisons that I have been mulling over. Feel free to discuss them, or to offer your own topics within this area of discussion. Two comparisons of roughly equivalent words that I have been considering lately are: "autumn" versus "fall" "liberty" versus "freedom"



Telosan	Nov 23 2011, 08:34 PM Post #2
The Foremost Intellectual Badass Posts: 3,893 Group: Map Makers Member #445 Joined: May 27, 2008	I thought this was interesting, but I don't really have anything I can contribute. :(



meh	Nov 23 2011, 08:58 PM Post #3
1st Lieutenant Posts: 618 Group: Members Member #695 Joined: August 17, 2011	Posted Image Posted Image Liberty



Tristan da Cunha	Nov 24 2011, 12:40 AM Post #4
Science and Industry Posts: 6,792 Group: Veterans Member #86 Joined: November 1, 2004	Freedom is a great word. As in "kingdom" the -dom suffix of "freedom" colors for us a tangible realm, a land and a place. Undoubtedly can be the forests and rivers of the earliest homelands of the Germanic tribes! The word liberty is more abstract to us. It describes a Platonic realm occulted from our own and to the Germanic ear carries no connotations of the sights and smells of the hearth or the homeland. However this must be different for a native Latinate speaker. The Romans were not an instinctively sophisticated people. Maybe "liberty" does invoke a certain parallel image for the Latinate speaker of the Etrurian foothills and rustic Saturnalia. But this is lost to us as the first memory of Rome by the Germanic seers is that of an elder civilization that had not been young and militant in many centuries. It's hard not to develop a fond appreciation for Germanic etymology when one inquires into English words like "window", which is derived from "wind's eye" in the old language of the Anglo-Saxon-Viking times. There is something deeply appealing about the vividness of the worldview and cultural memory of the ancient Germanic peoples as transmitted to us through language, and maybe we can best appreciate it as native English speakers rather than as learners of English from another cultural linguistic strand.



Sedulius	Nov 24 2011, 11:45 PM Post #5
Field Marshal Posts: 4,727 Group: Members Member #427 Joined: March 29, 2008	Well,speaking on just the overall subject of the thread, obviously English has mainly Germanic roots. Latin roots seeped in over time, between your Norman influence, Catholic influence, the influence of intellects, etc. I've always said English is kind of a bastard language. It's come very far from its Germanic roots yet not so far that it can be considered Romantic. It has unnecessary and redundant complexities to it, far more so than any other language I have studied. I do find German to be more complex in other ways, with redundancies, but not to the degree of English. Latin is far more complex than both, and yet never have I found its complexities to be unnecessary or redundant, just rather far more numerous. Certainly I consider it a blessing and a curse to have been borne in an English speaking country. It would be frustrating indeed to be a foreigner having to learn English, and by knowing English we really can speak with billions of people. It is closer to being the international language than any other language. I only find this a curse because of the irony that I, an Irishman, can only speak fluently the language of my people's conquerors. I aim to change that, but it will always be a fact that English is my native language. It is my wish that my children grow up speaking a language other than or in addition to English that they may not suffer the same curse.



New Harumf	Nov 25 2011, 04:43 PM Post #6
Bloodthirsty Unicorn Posts: 9,638 Group: Forum Mods Member #177 Joined: October 8, 2005	Oh, poor 1066. The Anglo Saxons defeated the damn Northerners, then had a forced march to face William of Normandy, and his long bowmen ripped him to pieces though he had larger forces. Think if William had been defeated, and a Germatic-based England had been formed. Think if the Celts, with their understanding of nature, had been the first to come to the New World - wouldn't they have had an understanding with the natives rather than the manifest destiny imported from Europe? How much more of a power would have England become if they made their matings with the Swedes and Norwegians other than the French and Spanish! What a different world we would have. I try, when ever i can, to use Anglo-Saxon words over French or Latin words. It is hard, but can be done. Ken if you can, a world without Latin and French. Know it would be strong, forceful, done. Know it would own the world.



Sedulius	Nov 26 2011, 12:53 AM Post #7
Field Marshal Posts: 4,727 Group: Members Member #427 Joined: March 29, 2008	New Harumf Nov 25 2011, 04:43 PM Think if the Celts, with their understanding of nature, had been the first to come to the New World - wouldn't they have had an understanding with the natives rather than the manifest destiny imported from Europe? There are Irish claims that they were fishing off the coasts around AD 800, something to do with Irish monks if I remember right. There is a modern day theory called the Celtic Theory for the origin of Native Americans, which while obviously they are not the sole origin, the theory has merit, given the discovery of Celtic artifacts in the Americas that are thousands of years old. I'd say it's safe to say the Celts did find the New World before other Europeans. EDIT: Celts also found China before the others. Ancient Celtic artifacts have been found under Beijing. It has been speculated that the original settlement was Celtic, and it has even been speculated the Chinese are descended of Mongols breeding with Celts. Edited by Sedulius, Nov 26 2011, 12:56 AM.



Hastine	Nov 28 2011, 11:31 PM Post #8
Universi enim hic sumus. Posts: 586 Group: Members Member #438 Joined: May 11, 2008	Siadhal Nov 26 2011, 12:53 AM New Harumf Nov 25 2011, 04:43 PM Think if the Celts, with their understanding of nature, had been the first to come to the New World - wouldn't they have had an understanding with the natives rather than the manifest destiny imported from Europe? There are Irish claims that they were fishing off the coasts around AD 800, something to do with Irish monks if I remember right. There is a modern day theory called the Celtic Theory for the origin of Native Americans, which while obviously they are not the sole origin, the theory has merit, given the discovery of Celtic artifacts in the Americas that are thousands of years old. I'd say it's safe to say the Celts did find the New World before other Europeans. EDIT: Celts also found China before the others. Ancient Celtic artifacts have been found under Beijing. It has been speculated that the original settlement was Celtic, and it has even been speculated the Chinese are descended of Mongols breeding with Celts. :rolleyes: If the Celts ever found the New World, it was during the legendary expedition of St. Brendan, and even that is in doubts. Remember, they've also found Roman coins in America, but unless the Romans actually wrote about having a province there (which they didn't), we can safely assume that any supposed expedition was one-way and had little to no effect on the Native American gene pool. The Vikings are a different story however, as there is evidence to their settlement in Newfoundland. Maybe Celts came along with them, since the population of Iceland was a mixture of Celts and Norsemen. As for Celts in China, this is all I have to say: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tocharians A seperate Indo-European group, not Celts.



Rhadamanthus	Nov 29 2011, 09:17 AM Post #9
Legitimist Posts: 12,945 Group: Admin Member #19 Joined: January 13, 2004	I think that for me, liberty invokes something more formal and more ordered, while freedom calls to mind something more chaotic and primal.



New Harumf	Nov 29 2011, 10:09 AM Post #10
Bloodthirsty Unicorn Posts: 9,638 Group: Forum Mods Member #177 Joined: October 8, 2005	Rhadamanthus Nov 29 2011, 09:17 AM I think that for me, liberty invokes something more formal and more ordered, while freedom calls to mind something more chaotic and primal. I was quite amused when I was driving in Spain and I would see a parking lot which flashed the sign "Libre"; I assumed it meant free parking because of my confusion between liberty and freedom. I know realise I was committing crimes all over the place, since it meant "Pqrking spaces available." Free parking would have said "Gratis"! "Liberty", to me, means the ability to go about your life without interference, while "Freedom" means total self-governance. That is the fundimental difference between P.H.'s "Give me liberty or give me death," and W.W.'s "FREEDOM!"



Rhadamanthus	Dec 11 2011, 10:04 PM Post #11
Legitimist Posts: 12,945 Group: Admin Member #19 Joined: January 13, 2004	That is an interesting anecdote. I like your contrast between Patrick Henry and William Wallace. I think TC's vision of the Germanic homeland is interesting, and his post draws attention to the importance of philology. Though, to be honest, the strongest feeling I have in this discussion is regret. I regret not having been a better Latin student in high school.



New Harumf	Dec 12 2011, 09:45 AM Post #12
Bloodthirsty Unicorn Posts: 9,638 Group: Forum Mods Member #177 Joined: October 8, 2005	Rhadamanthus Dec 11 2011, 10:04 PM That is an interesting anecdote. I like your contrast between Patrick Henry and William Wallace. I think TC's vision of the Germanic homeland is interesting, and his post draws attention to the importance of philology. Though, to be honest, the strongest feeling I have in this discussion is regret. I regret not having been a better Latin student in high school. I have never been a Latin student - I took linguistics! Much more fun!!



Al Araam	Dec 12 2011, 08:40 PM Post #13
Demigod of Death & Inactivity Posts: 3,486 Group: Global Mods Member #102 Joined: February 19, 2005	Personally, I find myself more attracted to the Germanic words in a lot of situations. Latin (and Greek) play a large role in the more technical areas of the English language, just think of the first five to ten words that come to mind when you think about biology or chemistry, for example. German words, on the other hand, comprise the majority of those words we use most regularly. I believe I read they're only 57% of the most common thousand English words, but 97% of the most common hundred. In addition, I believe that the words that inspire a certain type of gut emotional response tend to be of Germanic origin. Try these: awe, blunder, both, call, cast, cross, cut, die, drag, drown, get, gift, give, ill, law, low, rotten, skin, skull, stain, take, trust, ugly, want, weak, wrong. Some of those are pretty hefty concepts, but that's largely beside the point. Just say them and tell me you don't feel something in your gut.


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