Occupy Wall Street?

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Occupy Wall Street?
Topic Started: Sep 27 2011, 02:40 AM (1,157 Views)
Rhadamanthus	Oct 6 2011, 07:16 AM Post #26
Legitimist Posts: 12,945 Group: Admin Member #19 Joined: January 13, 2004	Quote: Demand eleven: Immediate across the board debt forgiveness for all. Debt forgiveness of sovereign debt, commercial loans, home mortgages, home equity loans, credit card debt, student loans and personal loans now! All debt must be stricken from the "Books." World Bank Loans to all Nations, Bank to Bank Debt and all Bonds and Margin Call Debt in the stock market including all Derivatives or Credit Default Swaps, all 65 trillion dollars of them must also be stricken from the "Books." And I don't mean debt that is in default, I mean all debt on the entire planet period. Demand twelve: Outlaw all credit reporting agencies. Wouldn't this just wipe out the loan market? Why would anyone, in such a situation, lend money to those they don't know personally? Quote: These demands will create so many jobs it will be completely impossible to fill them without an open borders policy. Why is that a good thing? Isn't it more efficient to create jobs where they are needed instead of creating too many jobs and then forcing people to move to fill them? Also, how the hell does someone claim to support open borders for movement but also tariffs to protect domestic industry? (Actually, a lot of the other proposed demands don't really play well with open borders. Of course, there are other things I would dispute, but those stuck out in my head. Edited by Rhadamanthus, Oct 6 2011, 07:18 AM.



Al Araam	Oct 6 2011, 07:22 AM Post #27
Demigod of Death & Inactivity Posts: 3,486 Group: Global Mods Member #102 Joined: February 19, 2005	I think it's pretty clear that whoever wrote those demands has the IQ of a turnip. On a good day, at least. After meeting the representative of the spin-off "occupation" protest who babbled at a group of people standing in line outside of a GameStop at midnight a couple nights ago, I'm not surprised. After all, anyone with half a brain could tell you that people who stand around outside for the better part of an hour at midnight to pick up a video game have things they're planning on doing with their free time the next day. Hint: it's not protesting. Edited by Al Araam, Oct 6 2011, 07:26 AM.



New Harumf	Oct 6 2011, 08:54 AM Post #28
Bloodthirsty Unicorn Posts: 9,638 Group: Forum Mods Member #177 Joined: October 8, 2005	Two things: I DEMAND AN OFFICIAL LIST OF DEMANDS! Did anyone see Dennis Miller last night on O'Rilley? Let me see if I can paraphrase: "These Wall Street punks gotta love Obama! First, he gives them two years of unemployment benefits, then free Medical insurance so they can get their medical marijuana, and then expands food stamps so they can by munchies! What a deal."



Sedulius	Oct 6 2011, 12:34 PM Post #29
Field Marshal Posts: 4,727 Group: Members Member #427 Joined: March 29, 2008	I disagree with you guys. Still all thinking inside of the box, and thinking in absolutes. Not thinking of yourselves in the shoes of the downtrodden. Most of that list is just fine by me. The only thing I truly disagree with is their wish to ban fission power. Come on! What did nuclear fission ever do to you! Are you worried about the incidents in Japan happening here? I for one support nuclear fission, but I do believe we must figure out to advance to fusion power as quickly as possible, though we must minimize explosions. One fusion power plant has the potential to alone power the entirety of the western coastal states and more. Fusion! It is the future, gentlemen! The rest, none of it is impossible. All of it is reasonable, as much as some of it may sound unreasonable. The USA is way behind international standards for so much on that list, and people just want the USA to be brought up to standard. You really can't go around saying the USA is the best country in the world when Russia has free healthcare, education, and no national debt (rather, a surplus). I'm not saying Russia is greatest (it obviously is not), but I'm saying that when the USA is behind the standards of Russia, there's a big problem. Nothing is impossible gentlemen. And those that think otherwise obviously are no intj.



Comrade Queen	Oct 6 2011, 03:22 PM Post #30
Comrade Bitchqueen Posts: 4,159 Group: Forum Mods Member #83 Joined: October 4, 2004	meh Oct 6 2011, 02:33 AM Lansdallius Oct 6 2011, 12:53 AM meh Oct 6 2011, 12:45 AM So, these are the demands being presented by the Occupy Wall Street group: http://occupywallst.org/forum/proposed-list-of-demands-for-occupy-wall-st-moveme/ I read it. Those are just the ideas of one guy. Admittedly, some of those don't make much sense. Some of them are actually contradicting. I know that the movement is extremely broad, but this is just one of the more popular proposals that I've seen. Actually, they just added an Admin's note saying this isn't an official list of demands. It also sounds suspiciously like the Obama campaign goals. :dry:



Rhadamanthus	Oct 6 2011, 04:15 PM Post #31
Legitimist Posts: 12,945 Group: Admin Member #19 Joined: January 13, 2004	Siadhal Oct 6 2011, 12:34 PM Nothing is impossible gentlemen. And those that think otherwise obviously are no intj. No, that has nothing to do with personality type as determined by the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator. I don't care about the rest of the argument, but that last line is just false. This has nothing to do with the MBTI, which is not a measurement of political opinion. Of course... now that I think about it, you probably meant that facetiously and I'm taking it seriously. Sorry - I'm just not good with online discussions. Edited by Rhadamanthus, Oct 6 2011, 06:29 PM.



meh	Oct 6 2011, 04:37 PM Post #32
1st Lieutenant Posts: 618 Group: Members Member #695 Joined: August 17, 2011	Siadhal Oct 6 2011, 12:34 PM I disagree with you guys. Still all thinking inside of the box, and thinking in absolutes. Not thinking of yourselves in the shoes of the downtrodden. Most of that list is just fine by me. The only thing I truly disagree with is their wish to ban fission power. Come on! What did nuclear fission ever do to you! Are you worried about the incidents in Japan happening here? I for one support nuclear fission, but I do believe we must figure out to advance to fusion power as quickly as possible, though we must minimize explosions. One fusion power plant has the potential to alone power the entirety of the western coastal states and more. Fusion! It is the future, gentlemen! The rest, none of it is impossible. All of it is reasonable, as much as some of it may sound unreasonable. The USA is way behind international standards for so much on that list, and people just want the USA to be brought up to standard. You really can't go around saying the USA is the best country in the world when Russia has free healthcare, education, and no national debt (rather, a surplus). I'm not saying Russia is greatest (it obviously is not), but I'm saying that when the USA is behind the standards of Russia, there's a big problem. Nothing is impossible gentlemen. And those that think otherwise obviously are no intj. Russia also has the 5th largest death rate. In fact, their death rate trumps their birth rate. Not the best comparison.



Ulgania	Oct 6 2011, 05:14 PM Post #33
A better Zarathustra has never rode a horse Posts: 4,041 Group: Members Member #450 Joined: June 3, 2008	I'm not exactly inspired by Obama. Nor am I a greeny. But I would like to own a home a little later in life and have a job that can keep it. I don't want to have to depend on inheritance or corporate stuff to make a living. I would also like to hear more about the NYOD corralling hundreds of people on a bridge and arresting them for it. haha



Toussaint	Oct 7 2011, 01:49 AM Post #34
Major Posts: 1,973 Group: Members Member #377 Joined: October 3, 2007	Good luck getting a home when the loan and credit markets are toasted.



Al Araam	Oct 7 2011, 07:47 AM Post #35
Demigod of Death & Inactivity Posts: 3,486 Group: Global Mods Member #102 Joined: February 19, 2005	Toussaint Oct 7 2011, 01:49 AM Good luck getting a home when the loan and credit markets are toasted. There are countries in the world where one has to buy a home with cash. Needless to say, in these countries only the rich own homes. Everyone else there rents their apartment for their entire life. If owning a home is part of the "American dream" then you need loans. If you forgive all debt, only crazy people will loan more money. Therefore, if you ever want to own a home, you want absolutely nothing to do with that crackpot's demands. If you see him on the street, kick him in the nuts for me, yeah?



Quaon	Oct 8 2011, 01:23 AM Post #36
A Prince Amoung Men-Shoot First and Ask Questions Later Posts: 8,837 Group: Forum Mods Member #209 Joined: January 11, 2006	The pretense that that idiotic list of demands represents the opinions of a significant portion of the movement is basically a Fox News hitjob. (I dislike when people throw around phrases like that, but that's basically what happened).



Rhadamanthus	Oct 8 2011, 02:01 AM Post #37
Legitimist Posts: 12,945 Group: Admin Member #19 Joined: January 13, 2004	Quaon Oct 8 2011, 01:23 AM The pretense that that idiotic list of demands represents the opinions of a significant portion of the movement is basically a Fox News hitjob. (I dislike when people throw around phrases like that, but that's basically what happened). Is there a list that does represent a significant portion of the movement?



NRE	Oct 8 2011, 10:13 AM Post #38
Map Tsar and Southern Gentleman Posts: 9,266 Group: Admin Member #120 Joined: April 21, 2005	Al Araam Oct 6 2011, 07:22 AM I think it's pretty clear that whoever wrote those demands has the IQ of a turnip. On a good day, at least. After meeting the representative of the spin-off "occupation" protest who babbled at a group of people standing in line outside of a GameStop at midnight a couple nights ago, I'm not surprised..... Getting the new Gears of War sequel I take it? :lol: I thought it was good, but I waited for the next day, Im not much for the midnight madness thing. As for the topic at hand, eh, I can understand the feeling of dread and the hopelessness among the downtrodden. However, I too would be interesting to see a more across the board idea of what the protestors want.



Quaon	Oct 8 2011, 12:54 PM Post #39
A Prince Amoung Men-Shoot First and Ask Questions Later Posts: 8,837 Group: Forum Mods Member #209 Joined: January 11, 2006	Rhadamanthus Oct 8 2011, 02:01 AM Quaon Oct 8 2011, 01:23 AM The pretense that that idiotic list of demands represents the opinions of a significant portion of the movement is basically a Fox News hitjob. (I dislike when people throw around phrases like that, but that's basically what happened). Is there a list that does represent a significant portion of the movement? Not to my knowledge, though there was some vague statement that outlined some principles (I can't find the link, sorry). I think what's important about this movement right now is its ideological amorphousness. What the protestors believe is more or less irrelevant - the fact that Americans are on the streets in large numbers registering their discontent registering their discontent is what matters. Right now, these aren't the people who are going to effect reform - too many of the protestors believe in the Democratic Party and the protest organizers are too wrapped up in the ethos of Gandhi and King. What this marks - possibly (this could just peter out) - is a beginning of something. I don't know what that something is, and I don't know if it's a good something, but I think it's fundamentally different from what we've seen in recent years.



Al Araam	Oct 8 2011, 01:07 PM Post #40
Demigod of Death & Inactivity Posts: 3,486 Group: Global Mods Member #102 Joined: February 19, 2005	I'm all for not sitting at home bitching about the problems with the country and doing nothing to affect change. What worries me is that quite a few people from "the movement" believe that they're going to change the world by camping out in a park somewhere with a thousand other people, most of whom don't believe the same things they do. It could be a powerful statement. I just don't think it says what most the protesters think it does.



Tristan da Cunha	Oct 8 2011, 08:12 PM Post #41
Science and Industry Posts: 6,792 Group: Veterans Member #86 Joined: November 1, 2004	The "movement" may rapidly transform into something less amorphous and/or peter out, and in any case is one manifestation of deeper underlying trends. We are after all conditioned to consume internet news in very small, real-time morsels, and the news so far may be relatively unimpressive, but its still instructive to speculate what these signs and portents of the age ultimately point to. With creeping unemployment, economic stagnation, and political treacheries conducted on a grand scale, it would be unprecedented for masses not to gather and agitate. True to historical form these socioeconomic upheavals may lack any specific or intelligible direction at any given time but then again that is the way of unfolding history-- unpredicted lurches forwards backwards and sideways which will only be understood and rationalized in retrospect.



Al Araam	Oct 8 2011, 09:09 PM Post #42
Demigod of Death & Inactivity Posts: 3,486 Group: Global Mods Member #102 Joined: February 19, 2005	Perhaps. When looking at the grand sweep of history, however, it's easy to forget that not every action changes the world. I would be surprised if this is any sort of a "lurch" at all.



Tristan da Cunha	Oct 8 2011, 09:31 PM Post #43
Science and Industry Posts: 6,792 Group: Veterans Member #86 Joined: November 1, 2004	Personally I believe this is a natural reaction to the rampant bailouts of Wall Street and the subsequent economic failures of those policies. Of course, a bunch of youngsters who have been indulged by their parents and possess no actual experience with real life or gainful employment, gathering in a park to protest, will not personally effect change but they are at the very least the vanguard of a wider sea-change whose appointed time to manifest will only depend on where is located the breaking-point of unemployment and poverty past which the country can no longer stomach. We are entering an era where forcible transfers and redistributions of wealth on the grandest, continental scale will become a routine thing, ushering in the Hobbesian "war of all against all" and the first shot was fired several years ago by those who bailed out Wall Street; now the underclasses seek to seize through legal or extralegal means whatever is left of the spoils.



New Harumf	Oct 9 2011, 11:59 AM Post #44
Bloodthirsty Unicorn Posts: 9,638 Group: Forum Mods Member #177 Joined: October 8, 2005	Tristan da Cunha Oct 8 2011, 09:31 PM Personally I believe this is a natural reaction to the rampant bailouts of Wall Street and the subsequent economic failures of those policies. Of course, a bunch of youngsters who have been indulged by their parents and possess no actual experience with real life or gainful employment, gathering in a park to protest, will not personally effect change but they are at the very least the vanguard of a wider sea-change whose appointed time to manifest will only depend on where is located the breaking-point of unemployment and poverty past which the country can no longer stomach. We are entering an era where forcible transfers and redistributions of wealth on the grandest, continental scale will become a routine thing, ushering in the Hobbesian "war of all against all" and the first shot was fired several years ago by those who bailed out Wall Street; now the underclasses seek to seize through legal or extralegal means whatever is left of the spoils. Fair analysis, TC. What pisses me off about this is the media reported on this imediately while they waited months to report on the Tea Parties, and then only to call them racist boobs. The current protests want Wall Street and its government lackys and lobbyists out. They feel (rightly) that the process of government is in ruins, controlled by the wealthy elete (as Eisenhower warned). This is basically the same thing the Tea Party wants - less government, less corruption, and elected officials that will put the people first. Could we have a French-type revolution? If government continues to abuse its power and ignore the people, and if it continues to only work for the lobby-heavy wealthy, it is inevitable. May God help us.



Ulgania	Oct 9 2011, 03:41 PM Post #45
A better Zarathustra has never rode a horse Posts: 4,041 Group: Members Member #450 Joined: June 3, 2008	Quote: a bunch of youngsters who have been indulged by their parents and possess no actual experience with real life or gainful employment I'm calling myself a protester, but I will bitterly fight anyone who dismisses me with that label.



meh	Oct 9 2011, 03:47 PM Post #46
1st Lieutenant Posts: 618 Group: Members Member #695 Joined: August 17, 2011	. Edited by meh, Oct 24 2013, 06:21 PM.



Ulgania	Oct 9 2011, 03:53 PM Post #47
A better Zarathustra has never rode a horse Posts: 4,041 Group: Members Member #450 Joined: June 3, 2008	A little thing I wrote out that's gotten some attention. Feel free to tear it to pieces. It was written with the intention of illustrating that one can be a part of Occupy Wall Street and be a part of the protests, but not feel that one is entitled to wealth distribution or handouts. Spoiler: click to toggle I�ve decided that I support Occupy Wall Street I�m not entitled. I�m not rich. I have a job. I commute 50 miles a day and am underemployed. I know full-well that the only risk I�ve taken in life was college, and it�s one that I have zero regrets over. I have zero expectations for entitlement. I have zero for meaningful reform. Despite this, the idea of the 1%, or those who earn the most and piss on everyone else, that�s different. I have zero expectations of people changing my life for the better, but I do believe that it�s morally and ethically right to protest those who, with their control over immense wealth and power, serve only to take more from the pockets of those who need it. I believe in needs. Everyone has needs, and while no one in control of their faculties deserves handouts, they should not have to fight tooth and nail for ever-lower levels of capital. People who have money deserve to continue to make money, but the line ought to be drawn when their income is increasingly at the expense of their compatriots. I believe that everyone also needs to have needs. Everyone needs to feel the sting of failure, and to suffer the consequences. This does not mean that I do not support the government bailouts of banks and other institutions � millions more would be unemployed had those not occurred. This does not mean that I believe things should have been structured so that a new rule in one instance ought to lead to exploitation in another � new rules leading to BoA and Citi to charging customers for the use of debit accounts is an example. To extend this, Citi�s announcement of charging those with less than $15,000 in their accounts is especially heinous. I do see that as a calculated judgment that lends itself to no one but the 1%. I do believe that those with the Tea Party mentality have every reason and right to march, but I don�t think they have the right to act obstructively and to rain down hate and pessimism, lies and hypocrisy and think they have the authority to call the OWS movements �Fascist� or �Nazi-like�. I do believe it�s every American�s right to live sheltered and in the dark, but it�s every young person�s right, despite the aforementioned group, to have the ability to own a home and pay down debts. This, however, is often labeled as �entitlement� and �socialism�. I will forever disagree, so long as those same people benefit disproportionately from government handouts, subsidies, and entitlements of any kind, save for military service and age. I�m not an absolutist, neither should anyone be. I believe that every marcher on Wall Street and across the country has realized injustice, but perhaps they have not felt injustice. I do not believe in a world without injustice as that would mean the removal of justice, as well, just as quickly. I think they have realized the injustices of their world, and are working towards something better, something that our Founding Fathers would see as a positive, those who actually participated in the Boston Tea Party would beam at with pride. I do believe that the perceived counter-culture is a fallacy, as many who march are incredibly hard working, but have had less to show for it than those predisposed to money and hardly work and those who entered the workforce of generations past. And finally, I believe that the organic nature of this protest, the �something for everyone� mentality, I believe that it is perfect. This is not a movement to be hijacked; this is not a movement to be obscured; this is not a movement to be used politically. The nature of this movement is that it cannot be sold out. It encompasses everyone, despite whatever part the media magnifies and inflates, left or right. It�s a liberal movement, it�s a conservative movement. It exists for everyone, and seeks to restore sanity and reignite the spark of self-preservation. It doesn�t reject and is all but libertine. It�s a big hug of strange bedfellows, it�s a picnic of people who are told "yes you can" just as often as they are told "don�t even risk it". It�s a movement that requires everyone, left or right, old or young, rich or poor, sane or not, to step back, and stop giving out immediate knee-jerk reactions to everything in their site, to stop projecting their pre-contrived views on it. I was biased against OWS at its inception, but on closer inspection, it illustrates a great maturity among those Americans who can stop and think, who can perceive, and can see that things are indeed amiss. It shows that this country can, in fact, grow up. We don�t have to join hands and sing, but we can stand together and make a stand against vain immaturity. Why not take a stand against those who drain capital and treasure from the next generation? Why not make it known that the decisions at the top are making it exponentially more difficult for those at the bottom than our peers of the previous generation? Why not act on the



Tristan da Cunha	Oct 9 2011, 04:11 PM Post #48
Science and Industry Posts: 6,792 Group: Veterans Member #86 Joined: November 1, 2004	"Underemployed" is a term of entitlement. The commonwealth does not not need nearly as many lib arts graduates as they suppose it does and certainly does not need to employ them all... Rather than being under-employed, you, (and I), are more or less "over-educated", "mis-educated", or "mal-educated."



Ulgania	Oct 9 2011, 04:36 PM Post #49
A better Zarathustra has never rode a horse Posts: 4,041 Group: Members Member #450 Joined: June 3, 2008	Tristan da Cunha Oct 9 2011, 04:11 PM "Underemployed" is a term of entitlement. The commonwealth does not not need nearly as many lib arts graduates as they suppose it does and certainly does not need to employ them all... Rather than being under-employed, you, (and I), are more or less "over-educated", "mis-educated", or "mal-educated." So, college should only be used to attain immediately marketable skills? Because that's not why I went to college. I went for the opportunity to learn things I wanted to learn, not to attain a certain tax bracket later in life.



Comrade Queen	Oct 9 2011, 04:39 PM Post #50
Comrade Bitchqueen Posts: 4,159 Group: Forum Mods Member #83 Joined: October 4, 2004	New Harumf Oct 9 2011, 11:59 AM Could we have a French-type revolution? If I was drinking something, I'd spew it all over my screen. The last thing this country needs is another Maximilien Robespierre.

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