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| Debate on Anarchism in Grafton | |
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| Topic Started: Aug 18 2010, 05:44 PM (1,086 Views) | |
| New Harumf | Aug 19 2010, 04:22 PM Post #51 |
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Bloodthirsty Unicorn
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Wellllll, being gay and wanting to move to Euphala, Alabama might cause a revolution! |
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| Deleted User | Aug 19 2010, 05:39 PM Post #52 |
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Deleted User
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This is more interesting than the 9/11 debate. Great thing on the hypocrisy issue though. Maybe if you weren't so hyper-literal and if you didn't make so many assumptions, maybe then you'd get the point. |
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| Comrade Queen | Aug 19 2010, 05:55 PM Post #53 |
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Comrade Bitchqueen
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Someone's missing the point, but it sure as hell isn't me. |
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| Deleted User | Aug 19 2010, 06:08 PM Post #54 |
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Deleted User
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Of course. That perfectly justifies your statement. |
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| Union | Aug 19 2010, 06:12 PM Post #55 |
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Pyrenees Republic
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Atticus, the very nature of doublethink renders any attempt to make him realize it impossible. |
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| East Anarx | Aug 19 2010, 06:53 PM Post #56 |
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Anarchitect
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:whistling: The FSP, the Free Town Project, Free Grafton, and the libertarian movement in general is made up of lots of different people with all sorts of different opinions. As Konkin used to say, "Everyone here disagrees." I don't claim to speak for anyone but myself, but I feel like Union has collectivized and as a result misinterpreted some of the views of people within these various movements, and I'd like to address them. First of all, I don't endorse working within the political system, even on the local level. Some people within these movements do, and that's cool, I guess. I'll applaud whenever they achieve any step toward individual liberty, but I won't help them "take over the town." Not everyone in these movements is an anarchist. Not everyone in these movements doesn't pay taxes. We're quite a diverse crowd. I'm not forcing anything on anyone. In fact, I don't even vote. I couldn't even if I wanted to, I'm not a citizen of Grafton, or the U.S. for that matter, seeing as how I seceded. :king: And as Scy has repeatedly pointed out, no one is preventing people who want a security guard, or "cop," from having one. All cutting police forces from the budget would do is prevent people from stealing from others to fund their security. If you want a security guard, hire one. But don't steal from me to pay for it. Also, when I said that the next thing to be cut from the budget would be the police force, I was just talking out of my ass. Haha, I'm glad it pissed you off, though, Union. I don't know what the fuck those crazy people in the Grafton town government are going to do, I can only hope they won't be able to afford a cop soon. The lights, (at least some of them,) really are on the way out, though. I've met quite a few locals that have lived here in Grafton for years, and everyone I've talked to has said they hate the government too and are glad that freestaters are moving here and shrinking it. There are of course some who don't like it, but you can't please everybody, and nobody is going to force them to do anything. They are more than welcome to move somewhere where the government rapes them in the ass every day. Grafton was chosen because it already had a high density of liberty-loving people. As for going somewhere people don't live, that's exactly what we are doing. No free stater is coming in and squatting on someone else's property, or stealing people's houses. We're buying property and building houses and businesses and participating in and growing the community. I'm not interested in incorporating. I'm not interested in changing any laws. Some of the people in these movements are, but if they succeed, it will be because they are following the same methodology that politicians have always used to change laws, (that is, without the unanimous desire, or consent, of those to which they apply.) Personally, I find that unfortunate and so I will have nothing to do with politics. What these people moving all have in common is that they are upset with the size and oppressiveness of the government where they used to live. If there were a free country they could all move to, no doubt they would have. Since there is not, we have set about trying to create one. I, for one, intend to use only peaceful and voluntary means in that attempt. As a propertarian market anarchist, I beg to differ. As for the whole garbage disposal thing, I've taken it upon myself to begin a competing service in tire disposal. Instead of paying $2.50 per tire to drop off their tires at the town dump, Graftonites can pay me just $.25. It's a win-win. People get rid of their used tires for cheaper than they would have otherwise, and I get building materials for my earthship. I don't have time to go through all the fallacies in this thread, but I would just like to announce my plans to purchase property, (we're looking at about 2.2 acres at the moment,) with some friends of mine, in Grafton. We intend to divide it up amongst ourselves, build several dwellings and businesses on it, and actively resist the property tax. We'll be seceding, (not as a group, but individually,) and so will be a sovereign alliance, so to speak. As the Vatican City is to Rome, so this place, (I'm thinking of naming my chunk Esternarx City,) will be to Grafton. Except, we'll have a lot more popes. I'll keep y'all posted on our progress. Edited by East Anarx, Aug 19 2010, 06:58 PM.
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| Rhadamanthus | Aug 19 2010, 07:20 PM Post #57 |
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Legitimist
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E, I know you have no intention of using the political process to enforce your views, and I respect you for that. But it seems clear to me that not all members of this Free Grafton thing feel the same way, and that is what concerned me. In any case, as always, I wish you well in your endeavors. And Scy too, of course ^^
Edited by Rhadamanthus, Aug 19 2010, 07:20 PM.
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| East Anarx | Aug 19 2010, 08:02 PM Post #58 |
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Anarchitect
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Free Grafton is different from the Free Town Project is different from the Free State Project is different from the libertarian movement. I personally know all the bloggers on Free Grafton, and all of them, are to the best of my knowledge, principled anarchists. This may change at some point in the future, but as far as I know, Free Grafton is not interested in using the political means. Some "libertarians" in Grafton are, however. |
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| Rhadamanthus | Aug 19 2010, 08:05 PM Post #59 |
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Legitimist
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Well, I apologize if I used the wrong term. It is awfully confusing. |
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| East Anarx | Aug 19 2010, 08:18 PM Post #60 |
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Anarchitect
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No apology necessary. It is indeed quite confusing. I just wanted to clarify things a bit. |
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| Rhadamanthus | Aug 19 2010, 08:22 PM Post #61 |
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Legitimist
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I appreciate that. I just wanted to make clear that I was not trying to deliberately misrepresent anyone. |
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| East Anarx | Aug 19 2010, 08:52 PM Post #62 |
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Anarchitect
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Even though I'm not involved in the political system, I'm acquainted with a few "libertarians" who are, and one positive thing I think they can do, (or should at least attempt to do,) from "the inside," is to get the town to recognize the independence of Esternarx City and it's neighboring Sovereigns. As long as people believe in the legitimacy of government, then the best thing for politically-minded "libertarians" to do is get the government to recognize secession. Plus, when we don't pay taxes, they can save face and claim that it was really their idea all along to have a "free trade zone" to stimulate the economy Hong Kong style. :lol: |
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| Nag Ehgoeg | Aug 20 2010, 03:25 PM Post #63 |
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The Devil's Advocate
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So the movement for the abolishion of slavery and suffrage of women was "an invasion"? Just sayin'. **** Victor Hugo said it best: A revolt is the revolution of tyranny against the people. An insurrection is the revolution of the people against tyranny. Foreigners imposing their laws on free people is an invasion. A people seeking to make themselves freer is just and proper revolution. Edited by Nag Ehgoeg, Aug 20 2010, 03:27 PM.
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| Quaon | Aug 22 2010, 04:12 PM Post #64 |
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A Prince Amoung Men-Shoot First and Ask Questions Later
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Pretty much. I mean, there was a literal military invasion that had to do with the former, so yeah. I'm not opposed to the idea of a cultural invasion on principle - I am opposed to the cultural invasion of Grafton because I am opposed to libertarianism and anarchism, be it capitalist or syndicalist. Mostly, my point in posting was pointing out Scy's (not E's) hypocrisy. |
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| Comrade Queen | Aug 22 2010, 06:31 PM Post #65 |
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Comrade Bitchqueen
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What you think is hypocrisy is your own inadequacy of understanding my viewpoint. You seem to think coming in from a different country is the same as coming in from another state or city. It's not. A different country involves usually a completely different culture and language. You are a stranger in a strange land, and if you came into that land illegally whatever that land's laws on immigration, you are breaking the law. Just popping into a different town in the same country doesn't even come close to the same level as there's a higher chance the culture and language are the same (unless you live in India) and most countries don't have laws concerning intercity immigration. |
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| Quaon | Aug 22 2010, 11:09 PM Post #66 |
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A Prince Amoung Men-Shoot First and Ask Questions Later
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Which is a completely stupid objection when you're talking about people whose stated goal is not just to break the law, but ignore the very existence of the law. |
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| Comrade Queen | Aug 22 2010, 11:33 PM Post #67 |
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Comrade Bitchqueen
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I see you're making the same error Union did. Go back up and read Esternarx's own post again and then try to form a better argument, otherwise you will always be.... |
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| Quaon | Aug 23 2010, 12:00 AM Post #68 |
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A Prince Amoung Men-Shoot First and Ask Questions Later
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All E has posted in this thread was a statement that he's not part of the Free Stater movement and that he disregards laws, but if political libertarians can get the government to recognize his right to secede, he would view that favorably. I don't see how that has any relevance, so I'd suggest you stop stonewalling. |
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| Comrade Queen | Aug 23 2010, 12:17 AM Post #69 |
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Comrade Bitchqueen
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Still failing to get it, I see. I'm not surprised. |
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| Menhad | Aug 23 2010, 02:10 AM Post #70 |
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ET2(IDW)
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What is there to get :huh: |
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| New Harumf | Aug 23 2010, 09:10 AM Post #71 |
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Bloodthirsty Unicorn
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There really is nothing to get. Scy is right. If he wants to move down the block, or accross the country, he can. If he wishes to change the government where he is moving to, he can. If he wishes to ignore the law where he is moving to, he can. If they wish to arrest him for ignoring that law, they can. No crime is committed until a crime is committed, so you can't pre-arrest Scy because he might break the law. From what I've seen, Scy is a pretty law-abiding guy to begin with, but he just wants to be left alone. More power to him! |
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| Union | Aug 23 2010, 09:43 AM Post #72 |
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Pyrenees Republic
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No one is saying it is illegal. That doesn't make it right. If these people moved there, and did not try to change the local government, it would be perfectly fine. But even as E absolves himself and others of political participation, he rejoices in suspending local law enforcement, in paralyzing local budget, and in acting against the government. E has as much legal right to change Grafton, NH, as Muslims have to build a mosque ON ground zero, and not two blocks away. Just because he corresponds with your political beliefs does not make it right. This is doublethink. They are invaders. They are not natives, and moved there with the intent and result of changing the local system. They are no different than French Algerians crying for Sharia law in Paris. A bunch of commies should move to Grafton with the same purpose. Let's see how you howl. Edited by Union, Aug 23 2010, 09:44 AM.
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| New Harumf | Aug 23 2010, 09:54 AM Post #73 |
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Bloodthirsty Unicorn
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I would oppose anyone trying to overthrow my political belief system, yes. That's what politics is all about - it's about winnig, not loosing, so, if a bunch of commies tried to take over Grafton, or any other town, like, say, San Francisco, yes, I would howl very loudly. |
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| Union | Aug 23 2010, 10:38 AM Post #74 |
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Pyrenees Republic
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But you don't recognize the same issue with anarchists like E doing the same thing - and all of you are ignoring the irony in an anarchist coercing a community towards his viewpoint. :rolleyes: |
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| Quaon | Aug 23 2010, 11:19 AM Post #75 |
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A Prince Amoung Men-Shoot First and Ask Questions Later
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Again, I am unconvinced by your assertion that there is a difference between a group of Americans going to a town and actively violating its laws and a group of Mexicans going to a town and passively violating its laws. |
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11:51 AM Jul 13