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Debate on Anarchism in Grafton
Topic Started: Aug 18 2010, 05:44 PM (1,087 Views)
Union
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Pyrenees Republic
...

You expect a profitable business to be run, in say, garbage-collecting, in a town with a population density of 27 people per square mile? With gas pushing $2, and soon more, a gallon, and a large truck with a very low gas mileage? Keep in mind, please, the world average population density is 37.5 per square mile, and that's downright sparse. :rolleyes:

Sometimes there is no business opportunity, short of outright extortion. And this is the problem with this utopia.
Edited by Union, Aug 18 2010, 11:00 PM.
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Comrade Queen
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Comrade Bitchqueen
Hemp grown biodiesel is pretty damn efficient. Better than the corn and sugar cane crap that governments and companies on corporate welfare are failing utterly at. And who needs gasoline?
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Union
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Pyrenees Republic
The truck. The truck needs gasoline. Or does this mythical company have thousands, if not more, to spend on researching an efficient engine and outfitting a vehicle, thousands it can not expect to return.

Not to mention the fact that you would need to pay someone to grow the hemp. Or pay someone to transport it to a tiny town of 1,100 about an hour from any population center over 30,000 people. And, of course, someone needs to get around to building a hemp biofuel refinery in this town, or within an economic distance, for the sole purpose of fueling this truck.

:rolleyes:

Good christ. might as well build your town on the big rock candy mountain.

Fuck this. Lunatics.
Edited by Union, Aug 18 2010, 11:10 PM.
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Al Araam
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Scythirus
Aug 18 2010, 10:34 PM
Electricity can be free. Buy a solar panel. Free electricity right there for the rest of your years. All you had to buy was the equipment to get said electricity and the sun will always shine.

Founding a new town takes more time and more money. Not every libertarian has endless heaps of cash. Moving to an established town is cheaper and frankly better financial sense.
I should mention that, at this point in time, buying enough solar panels to provide electricity for the average house costs tens of thousands of dollars. So I think it's a stretch to say electricity is free. Sure, electricity may technically be free, but you'd need a heap of very specific components and a lot of technical know-how to utilize it.

On the other hand, trash collection is a luxury. You can also dispose of trash by throwing your garbage can in the back of a car and hauling it to a dump. As all that is really required for a dump is a hole in the ground and one guy to stand there and charge you for throwing your junk into it, I daresay someone could figure out how to make it pay.
Edited by Al Araam, Aug 18 2010, 11:08 PM.
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Comrade Queen
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Comrade Bitchqueen
The truck doesn't need gasoline. Any vehicle can be converted to a biofuel engine. Also, hemp can be grown right there at the town and furthermore a huge biofuel refinery isn't needed for a small town. Most people can make biofuel on their own with the right equipment. Seriously it's very easy to make that shit.

Edit: The solar panel costs money, the electricity itself produced from the sun's rays costs NOTHING!
Edited by Comrade Queen, Aug 18 2010, 11:10 PM.
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Union
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Pyrenees Republic
http://www.nhpr.org/audio/audio/ex-2004-06-23.wax

Grafton residents not particularly happy about the Free Town project.
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Comrade Queen
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Comrade Bitchqueen
Oh well. If they hate being free that much then it sucks to be them.
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Union
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Pyrenees Republic
You really don't see the irony? Really? :lol:

Their opinions no longer matter, then? They don't know for themselves what they want? You know better, do you?
Edited by Union, Aug 18 2010, 11:33 PM.
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Comrade Queen
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There is no irony. They want to rely on the state; no one is stopping them from freely giving money to the state. I just don't see why it's mandatory to rely on and give money to the state.
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Union
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Pyrenees Republic
And you don't see how flooding the polls with persons from all across the country circumvents the ability of the locals, as in Kansas in 1850, to decide for themselves? You are deciding for them. Electing a government is choosing to give to it.
Edited by Union, Aug 18 2010, 11:43 PM.
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Comrade Queen
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How are they being decided for? I already said that they can slavishly give away their money to the state if they want to instead of learning how to do things for themselves. No one's holding a gun to their head and saying you MUST not pay the government or else. The free staters just don't want the government holding a gun to THEIR head and force them to pay. How is that forcing other people to do what they want? You're misinterpreting the cause completely.
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Tristan da Cunha
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Scythirus
Aug 18 2010, 10:25 PM
Union
Aug 18 2010, 10:16 PM
That's wonderful, and true to boot. Nor can anyone stop me from voting against that, in favor of jack-booted thugs that would throw you in Aushwitz for your sexuality. (Not that I want too, mind you, I'm just making a point. I'd hardly expect anyone to accept democracy when the vote turns the gun on them.)
Once again, there is such thing as un-Constitutional laws and your hypothetical strawman continues to be an un-Constitutional law.
The federal constitution is not intended to prevent localities from keeping out the "undesirables." Unconstitutional is the idea that it is unconstitutional to restrict movements of "legal US citizens".

That said the new measures in Grafton are quite sensible for conserving electricity and curbing police salaries, which are completely out of line compared to private sector salaries. Grafton, a 97.86% Caucasian community is safe enough that it does not need street lights; street lights are more or less prison strobe lights for the African-American inner city ghettos. Heck, police forces are more or less enforcers of martial law for those selfsame ghettos. You know the blaqs.

Grafton ought to emulate some successful municipalities in California that abolished their own police forces and subcontracted other cities' police, resulting in cost savings, no increase in crime, and in fact more effective and more efficient law enforcement. Somewhere along the line it was pounded into people's heads that every city no matter how intrinsically safe or how small requires police force in its own name, and all its attendant bloated costs. This stark lack of critical thinking prevents the detection of waste and redundancy.

As for the matter of anarchy I don't believe it will be actualized under current technological conditions as peoples' attachment to their private property is simply too great to overcome (and arguably should not be overcome) and private property is antithetical to anarchy. Even more mundane than that, mankind is simply too lazy to be anarchistic. It's not even a matter of being moral angels, rather it's a matter of not being lazy copouts as most of us are, myself not excepted. Anarchy suffers from the freeloader problem, and societies that solve that problem, such as the Amish, are not very palatable to us. The Amish have made life on this rock of an earth an unnecessarily serious business but otherwise technophilic anarchies will, at most, be a vague, plasmaoid corona around the sun of the Taylorized industrial state, never anything substantive and dependent on the goings on in that state(s).
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Comrade Queen
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Tristan da Cunha
Aug 18 2010, 11:57 PM
The federal constitution is not intended to prevent localities from keeping out the "undesirables." Unconstitutional is the idea that it is unconstitutional to restrict movements of "legal US citizens".
I only disagree with this point. I was born in this country and I have every right to live where I want. Anything else is slavery.
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Eleytheria-Duo
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Scythirus
Aug 19 2010, 12:04 AM
I only disagree with this point. I was born in this country and I have every right to live where I want. Anything else is slavery.
ANYWHERE you want, Scy?
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Comrade Queen
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Comrade Bitchqueen
If you're being hyper-literal, you're missing the point.
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Eleytheria-Duo
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Scythirus
Aug 19 2010, 12:14 AM
If you're being hyper-literal, you're missing the point.
Seems like people taking things to the extreme is the norm in these debates, I merely felt compelled to join.

But, since in the past 10 minutes I've lost the will to press my case, I'll let more capable minds handle this debate.
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Union
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Pyrenees Republic
Just curious where in the constitution the right to travel unhindered is actually written.

Another fun fact is that the Free Towners are blocking a budget the taxes of which they have not, proudly, paid. It is not even their money they're paralyzing. :lol:
Edited by Union, Aug 19 2010, 07:59 AM.
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New Harumf
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Bloodthirsty Unicorn
OK, come on, you are both partially right, and you know it. You are just too stubborn to admit it.

1. There is no "we" vs "they" in this town. Once someone moves into the community, they become part of the "we" and have as much say as to what happens with the community as the next guy. If, at some point, those favoring the "free state" concept become a majority they can force the town's budget to 0. Barney Fife looses his whistle, gun and bullet, street lights go dark, etc. etc. That's how local government works.

2. The "free staters" are, however, moving into a town with existing infrastructure. They did not pay for the infrastructure, and claim they will not pay to support it. If this is indeed what they prefer, then no water taps should be permitted to them, no sewers, no roads, no fire protection, no garbage pickup, no police protection, no building inspectors, no use of city parks and facilities, no schools, etc. etc. If you want electricity, you must pay ther electric company - kinda sounds like a fee for services, right? Then everything should be a fee for services, if they won't pay their share, you don't get the service.

This is how it should be set up, in order to be fair. There is no need for anyone not to live there.
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Union
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Pyrenees Republic
I feel moving into a community, whether you are a libertarian or an Arab or a Catholic, requires conformance with the local community, and integration into the existing structure. If a bloc of men move to a single place for the purpose of changing it, it is invasion. Period. Why move there if you only want to change it, after all?
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Quaon
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A Prince Amoung Men-Shoot First and Ask Questions Later
I find it hilarious that some of the people who attack illegals for "invading" think it's perfectly all right to do the same thing. And Scy is not allowed to appeal to his privileges and immunities as a US citizen to justify this discrepancy, because he claims to be an anarchist.
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New Harumf
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Quaon
Aug 19 2010, 10:46 AM
I find it hilarious that some of the people who attack illegals for "invading" think it's perfectly all right to do the same thing. And Scy is not allowed to appeal to his privileges and immunities as a US citizen to justify this discrepancy, because he claims to be an anarchist.
Well, then you are a fascist! You have no trouble wanting to strip Scy of his rights endowed by our creator, and not by any government, simply because of the way he thinks politically?** votes for Quaon to leave the country **
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Union
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Pyrenees Republic
:lol:
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Comrade Queen
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Comrade Bitchqueen
I'm more of a minarchist, really.
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Quaon
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Okay. Why is it more acceptable to move to a town for the sole purpose of radicalizing than crossing a border to earn a shit wage. I don't support either, but the hypocrisy is evident (I am not accusing E of this, mind you, as I know he obviously would not support that).
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Comrade Queen
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Comrade Bitchqueen
Are you implying inter-state immigration should be illegal? Because believe or not but people move around freely in this nation without restriction. A friend of mine just moved to Colorado from Washington just this month. Should he have not been allowed to do this? Or any past time he's moved around widely in the past? The United States is a single nation and we are native to that nation. If you restrict our right to move wherever we want, you make this country even more authoritarian.

And keep in mind, I support legal immigration. More power to whoever wants to move here from another country as long as they respect our sovereign laws. There are no laws against moving to another town in this country. At least, there weren't any last I checked.
Edited by Comrade Queen, Aug 19 2010, 02:52 PM.
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