Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
This forum is used with the NationStates web-game designed and run by Max Barry. While not officially affiliated, this serves as the regional forum for the regions: Middle East, African Continent, American Continent, Asian Continent, and European Continent.

You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and can "read only".

In order to get the most out of these forums, please become a member and read this guide - http://z3.invisionfree.com/nationstates/index.php?showtopic=3060


If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features:

Username:   Password:
Add Reply
Debate on Anarchism in Grafton
Topic Started: Aug 18 2010, 05:44 PM (1,082 Views)
Union
Member Avatar
Pyrenees Republic
That's incredibly selfish, E. Why force your viewpoint on a community? Isn't that the antithesis of the values you claim to uphold? Maybe the majority of the town likes having a cop, and tyranny by majority doesn't sound particularly non-coercive to me.

Go somewhere people don't live, and build your own town. :dry: It isn't even that hard to do. One of your Free staters apparently bought up a few hundred acres of land. Incorporate a town there, and let Grafton be.

Edited by Union, Aug 18 2010, 05:50 PM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Comrade Queen
Member Avatar
Comrade Bitchqueen
I've actually expressed my interest in Grafton in another thread so Esternarx isn't "forcing" anything. I'd just rather be in a better situation financially before I consider any long distance relocation.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Union
Member Avatar
Pyrenees Republic
I'm actually talking about the people who lived in Grafton, and this may be difficult to understand, before the Free Towners hijacked their community for their own purposes, without regard to the local opinion or permission, and now undermine the ability of the community to provide for its own citizens, because of their personal issue with it.

Of course, the complete irony of a group of anarchists forcing a town to conform to their desires, a town they did not found and which they migrated to, without regard for local desires, is also amusing.
Edited by Union, Aug 18 2010, 09:13 PM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Comrade Queen
Member Avatar
Comrade Bitchqueen
It's suppose to be a free country, we can live anywhere and vote however we damn well want.
Edited by Comrade Queen, Aug 18 2010, 09:29 PM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Union
Member Avatar
Pyrenees Republic
So it is a tyranny of majority, then? As long as it is cleared up. I was unaware coercion was permissible because of popular vote.

Can I have gays or transvestites, like yourself, shot, if 50%+1 of the country consents, then?
Edited by Union, Aug 18 2010, 09:30 PM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Comrade Queen
Member Avatar
Comrade Bitchqueen
I believe there's clauses in the Constitution on how far a law can go and clarified in later amendments, so no. That's infringement of someone's right to live.

All the people in Grafton are trying to do is set a precedent of a community immune from mandatory government taxes. Why should taxes be forced on people? If people want to give money to a government, it should be because they want to not because they have to.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Union
Member Avatar
Pyrenees Republic
So... why not found your own town, which is relatively simple, of which dozens are incorporated each year in the United States, and invite people to join you...

Instead of hijacking an existing community, pushing the local government to an inoperable point, and getting rid of services that you may disagree with, but others rather like - such as police men, or lights on at night.

Or is it OK to force your will on others, as long as it is for a good purpose?

I just find it funny as hell we're talking about 'anarchists' here.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Comrade Queen
Member Avatar
Comrade Bitchqueen
Requiring people to pay taxes at gunpoint is forcing your will on someone else. The libertarians in Grafton are making it optional.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Union
Member Avatar
Pyrenees Republic
Forcibly. That's the irony of it all. The people of Grafton did not ask for them there, and had protested their arrival.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Comrade Queen
Member Avatar
Comrade Bitchqueen
You're being a jackass. As I said before, this is supposed to be a free country and no one can stop legal citizens from living where they want to.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
NRE
Member Avatar
Map Tsar and Southern Gentleman

GIVEN THIS IS NOT THE PROPER PLACE FOR SUCH A DEBATE, I'M GOING TO CUT THIS DISCUSSION FROM THIS AREA AND RELOCATE IT IN THE GENERAL AREA OF THE OT. I WILL ALSO REMIND ALL PARTIES THAT WE RESPECTFULLY REQUEST ALL PARTIES INVOLVED IN "SPIRITED" DEBATES TO REMAIN CIVIL. WHILE I DON'T THINK ANY LINES HAVE THUS FAR BEEN CROSS, I JUST THOUGHT I'D NIP THIS IN THE BUD RIGHT NOW. YOU MAY CARRY ON
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Rhadamanthus
Member Avatar
Legitimist

I thought that going somewhere en masse and changing the laws without the desire of the preexisting occupants was called an invasion. As interesting as this whole Free Grafton project is, the methodology disturbs me.
Edited by Rhadamanthus, Aug 18 2010, 10:11 PM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Comrade Queen
Member Avatar
Comrade Bitchqueen
So are you saying that legal citizens of the U.S. should not be allowede to live where they want? That we should live where we're told to and have no choice in the matter? Because that's what it sounds like you're saying.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Union
Member Avatar
Pyrenees Republic
That's wonderful, and true to boot. Nor can anyone stop me from voting against that, in favor of jack-booted thugs that would throw you in Aushwitz for your sexuality. (Not that I want too, mind you, I'm just making a point. I'd hardly expect anyone to accept democracy when the vote turns the gun on them.)

But you can still criticize my intentions and means.

And I yours.

Perhaps the people of Grafton did not mind at first when you arrived. No zoning board, after all, or any such 'statist' tools. But you are ultimately guests of the community. You are outsiders. You are paralyzing their local government, trying to gut their law enforcement, and gloating about it. Did you ask if that was OK with them? Did you consider the fact that the current residents might be less than happy about that?

There are many unpopulated corners of this country. Please, just tell me: why did they not incorporate their own town? Why force their views on others? That's all I want to know. If you truly live by the principles of non-coercion, why coerce? And voting is coercion by popular will, whatever you may want to believe.

I don't care if you think I'm a jackass, Scy. I don't think too highly of you, frankly, and I will call the Free Town movement what it is - a disturbing trend, and, to be perfectly honest, a disgrace and betrayal of the values you claim to hold dear.
Edited by Union, Aug 18 2010, 10:17 PM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Rhadamanthus
Member Avatar
Legitimist

Scythirus
Aug 18 2010, 10:14 PM
So are you saying that legal citizens of the U.S. should not be allowede to live where they want? That we should live where we're told to and have no choice in the matter? Because that's what it sounds like you're saying.
No Scy. If you were talking to me, I hope you know me better than that. What I am saying is that I am not comfortable with the idea of gathering together a large group of people to converge in one place and change the way everything works. I would certainly be upset if it happened to me.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Comrade Queen
Member Avatar
Comrade Bitchqueen
Union
Aug 18 2010, 10:16 PM
That's wonderful, and true to boot. Nor can anyone stop me from voting against that, in favor of jack-booted thugs that would throw you in Aushwitz for your sexuality. (Not that I want too, mind you, I'm just making a point. I'd hardly expect anyone to accept democracy when the vote turns the gun on them.)
Once again, there is such thing as un-Constitutional laws and your hypothetical strawman continues to be an un-Constitutional law.

Quote:
 

Perhaps the people of Grafton did not mind at first when you arrived. No zoning board, after all, or any such 'statist' tools. But you are ultimately guests of the community. You are outsiders. You are paralyzing their local government, trying to gut their law enforcement, and gloating about it. Did you ask if that was OK with them? Did you consider the fact that the current residents might be less than happy about that?

There are many unpopulated corners of this country. Please, just tell me: why did they not incorporate their own town? Why force their views on others? That's all I want to know. If you truly live by the principles of non-coercion, why coerce? And voting is coercion by popular will, whatever you may want to believe.


No one's forcing the prior inhabitants to stop giving their money to the government. They'll just need to think of a better way to keep doing it. The libertarians didn't shut off the electricity, the government did, thus it's the government that's actually trying to play the coercion game.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Union
Member Avatar
Pyrenees Republic
Quote:
 
Once again, there is such thing as un-Constitutional laws and your hypothetical strawman continues to be an un-Constitutional law.


It is possible to amend the Constitution, as you well know.

And please stop ignoring my question. It was the only question I have asked, and you have deliberately avoided responding.

Why is taking over a town better than founding your own?

I am also sorry you believe electricity is free, and that the local government had a choice in the matter. You do, I hope, understand the concept of 'acting under duress'. Is that legitimate now too?

Joy to Doublethink, eh?
Edited by Union, Aug 18 2010, 10:31 PM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Ulgania
Member Avatar
A better Zarathustra has never rode a horse
anarchy is so anachronistic.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Comrade Queen
Member Avatar
Comrade Bitchqueen
Electricity can be free. Buy a solar panel. Free electricity right there for the rest of your years. All you had to buy was the equipment to get said electricity and the sun will always shine.

Founding a new town takes more time and more money. Not every libertarian has endless heaps of cash. Moving to an established town is cheaper and frankly better financial sense.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Union
Member Avatar
Pyrenees Republic
Not to mention, of course, that pivotal infrastructure required to sustain a modern quality of life, particularly for a movement so involved with the internet, has already been built on the expense of the very same government you now threaten to bankrupt.

But hell, what's a little more abuse? You have voting abuse (Who remembers Kansas c. 1850s?) and extortion under your belts, after all. Might as well add theft. Because fuck paying for the services you use. Doubt you're putting checks in your neighbor's mailbox for usage of the road, so don't bother going down the 'taxation is theft' road, because you're not even paying the people who did build that infrastructure.

What a joke. :rolleyes:
Edited by Union, Aug 18 2010, 10:40 PM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Comrade Queen
Member Avatar
Comrade Bitchqueen
Hm, lessee... last I checked, all the homes were legally paid for, no theft there. Solar panels make electricity available right off because the sun is eternal compared to human life and remains unowned, so no theft there. No one wants the overzealous men in blue costumes holding guns at their heads so no theft there. Um... what "theft" are you talking about?
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Union
Member Avatar
Pyrenees Republic
Roads. Powerlines. The fiber optics cables that run to your house. The sewer system that manages your water. The place where your garbage goes. Stoplights. Those sweet road and street signs. The nifty red truck that helps you when your house is on fire.

I also take issue with the phrase 'no one wants overzealous men in blue costumes'. You. You don't want overzealous men in blue costumes. The point where you decided you meant everyone is when you crossed the line into the hypocritical jungle you now roam.
Edited by Union, Aug 18 2010, 10:49 PM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Comrade Queen
Member Avatar
Comrade Bitchqueen
Most people generally pay their own garbage and sewage as those are usually run by actual BUSINESSES as opposed to the government. The rest is overrated.
Edited by Comrade Queen, Aug 18 2010, 10:51 PM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Union
Member Avatar
Pyrenees Republic
Unfortunately, no.

www.townofgrafton.com

Garbage and recycling is handled by the city. The fire and ambulance service is run by the city. Grafton County runs the Wastewater Treatment Plant.

And again, you are transposing your views unto others in a coercive way. That you may think they are overrated does not mean that opinion is unanimous. I severely doubt of the 1,100 people in Grafton even a majority, hell a significant minority, support your position.
Edited by Union, Aug 18 2010, 10:55 PM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Comrade Queen
Member Avatar
Comrade Bitchqueen
Ah, the perfect opportunity to break the monopoly of the state then. I hear potential business opportunities.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
ZetaBoards - Free Forum Hosting
Free Forums with no limits on posts or members.
Learn More · Sign-up for Free
Go to Next Page
« Previous Topic · Off-Topic · Next Topic »
Add Reply