Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
This forum is used with the NationStates web-game designed and run by Max Barry. While not officially affiliated, this serves as the regional forum for the regions: Middle East, African Continent, American Continent, Asian Continent, and European Continent.

You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and can "read only".

In order to get the most out of these forums, please become a member and read this guide - http://z3.invisionfree.com/nationstates/index.php?showtopic=3060


If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features:

Username:   Password:
Add Reply
Fornication
Topic Started: Jul 5 2010, 08:57 PM (221 Views)
Sedulius
Member Avatar
Field Marshal
I need you guys to go to work for me.

My father, devout Christian though he may be, has challenged me to find any evidence that the Bible (not Christian churches) disapproves of premarital sex.

I can say right now, since I have been reading it for the past few nights, that it says several times over in I Corinthians that fornication (premarital sex) is a sin.

However, he counters that if two intend to wed, and the sex is done out of love, that such is not a sin. I counter that if they really love each other, they could just wait till marriage. I don't see why one can't simply be chaste.

Now, I bring this up in the forum because I know TC has said something on this matter before given some old law when I had discussed the subject with Riri. I'd like to see the literature on that if possible.

Otherwise, what I need are quotes from the Bible that clearly show that sex should not be outside of marriage. But care must be taken. Fornication is defined these days as sex outside of marriage, but 1) it is an English word translated from the Latin or original Greek, and 2) whatever the original Greek meant at the time it was written could have a much more specific definition than the rather wide definition of sex before marriage.

Can you guys help me out?
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Rhadamanthus
Member Avatar
Legitimist

If you need to find a Biblical basis, what is your father's Biblical basis for his view?

In any case, "porneia" is a Greek word often rendered as fornication in English. Some assign it that, specific, meaning, while others give it broader meanings. For example, if I recall correctly, the Orthodox Church has historically understood this to refer to sexual misbehavior in general.

Its worth remembering that in ancient Hebrew society, even engagements were binding contracts. Also, in the Old Testament, if a man violates an unmarried woman he is bound to marry her and, IIRC, pay her father the amount due.

I haven't looked at any of this recently enough to offer more commentary, but what exactly are you trying to show your father? Is it an issue of understanding the Bible in its own context, or is he seeking to re-interpret it for modern culture? Because I can understand his view in light of Modern American culture, but it is hard to understand how that would fit in the framework of Ancient Jewish culture (whether in the time of the Old Testament, or in the 1st century). Traditional Middle Eastern sexual attitudes are certainly not modern American ones.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Hastine
Member Avatar
Universi enim hic sumus.
 *  *  *  *  *  *
Here's a chapter in the Bible I thought of when you proposed this question. Emphasis added, of course. :P

Quote:
 
This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit. Because Joseph her husband was a righteous man and did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly. But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, "Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.

(Matthew 1:18-21 NIV)


What I can gather from this, is that in Judaic Law, even having sex before marriage was a scandalous affair. What it means by public disgrace, I don't know, but it probably isn't just being put in the stocks and getting vegetables and feces thrown at you. It's probably full-blown stoning, the traditional punishment for outright adultery. So it's likely that premarital sex, as well as adultery, were lumped into the same category in Israel. This makes sense when you consider the ambiguous meaning of "fornication" itself, which refers generally to any sex outside of marriage, married or not.

Later, Jesus himself said famously:

Quote:
 
"You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not commit adultery". But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

(Matthew 5:27-32 NIV)


So basically, looking at a woman and thinking she's attractive is fine, but thinking any farther and imagining yourself boning her is crossing the line. What I get from this verse is that, since it doesn't even mention marriage and yet mentions adultery, that even lusting after an unmarried woman makes yourself impure for your future wife. Pretty extreme, true, but it provides a glaring example of how Jesus, and therefore the early Christians, viewed adultery, both marital and non-marital.

Hope that helps a bit.

Edited by Hastine, Jul 5 2010, 09:31 PM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Union
Member Avatar
Pyrenees Republic
Quote:
 
What it means by public disgrace, I don't know, but it probably isn't just being put in the stocks and getting vegetables and feces thrown at you. It's probably full-blown stoning, the traditional punishment for outright adultery.


Not at all. It is a social rejection only. They didn't want Mary to be known as the town tramp. This continued up to the 1960s.

People in the modern age seem to think we are so much more advanced than those that came before us, in every way. It simply is not true. Just read the summary of the Golden Ass on wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Golden_Ass :rolleyes:

Yeah, maybe an honor killing is POSSIBLE, but fornication was not unheard of in those times, and there certainly was no institutional punishment.

Quote:
 
"For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man." (Matthew 15:19-20, KJV)


There is a difference between adultery and fornication.

Quote:
 
"Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I am. But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion." (1 Corinthians 7:8-9)


Quote:
 
"Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman. Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband." (1 Corinthians 7:1-2, KJV)


Quote:
 
"Flee fornication." (1 Corinthians 6:18, KJV)


Basically, sex outside of marriage is a sin.

Try to keep in mind that common-law marriage qualifies as marriage.

That being said, why should the morality of an ancient tribe of Israelites that was followed only loosely by its own people in any way have a bearing on modern moral standards?
Edited by Union, Jul 5 2010, 09:49 PM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Sedulius
Member Avatar
Field Marshal
Okay, I can see more clarity is needed.

My view is that sex before marriage is a sin no matter what the conditions of it are.

His argument is that sex between a man and woman who intend to marry and do it in love is not a sin. He claims that there is no where in the Bible that says this is not the case. He says the sin of sex before marriage only applies to lustful sex.

This argument has nothing to do with modern world view, but rather with his interpretation versus my interpretation of the Bible. We both consider ourselves devout Christians.

I merely stand with the vast majority of Christendom on this one, especially because of my Othodox convictions.

Thanks for the quotes and clarifications so far guys. However, I'll really have to memorize the quotes and put them into a structured argument. The only way to beat him is through sound logic and fact.
Edited by Sedulius, Jul 5 2010, 10:56 PM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Deleted User
Deleted User

These Corinthians must have been some horny people.



...




Quote:
 
He claims that there is no where in the Bible that says this is not the case. He says the sin of sex before marriage only applies to lustful sex.
The Bible doesn't say a lot of things. It never says you can't use sex toys or masturbate. I don't get his argument.
Quote Post Goto Top
 
Sedulius
Member Avatar
Field Marshal
Atticus
Jul 5 2010, 10:56 PM
These Corinthians must have been some horny people.
Oh yeah, they certainly were. That's the main reason Paul wrote the letter to them. They had gone over to the Church, but they wanted to keep their old Greek traditions of orgies and the like.

Each Church he wrote to had a specific problem. Theirs was sex.

EDIT: Replying to your edit, I hear ya. Just because the Bible doesn't say something doesn't make it right. Is there possibly a fallacy I could call him on for saying that? Something to look into.
Edited by Sedulius, Jul 5 2010, 11:01 PM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Union
Member Avatar
Pyrenees Republic
People are horny.

The Israelis were no more chaste that Snooki.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Sedulius
Member Avatar
Field Marshal
Who or what is Snooki? Sounds dirty.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Telosan
Member Avatar
The Foremost Intellectual Badass
Snooki is one of the main female characters on that godforsaken show Jersey Shore.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Deleted User
Deleted User

I'm sorry, but its sad that you and Union know that, just downright sad.
Quote Post Goto Top
 
Sedulius
Member Avatar
Field Marshal
You know guys, I am in DC. I'll be free all of tomorrow, prowling about the metro and what not. Any of you up for meeting the Sed? lol
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Telosan
Member Avatar
The Foremost Intellectual Badass
Atticus
Jul 5 2010, 11:11 PM
I'm sorry, but its sad that you and Union know that, just downright sad.
How so? That show's reputation is black around here, so naturally we know everything about it so we can be more offended by it.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Sedulius
Member Avatar
Field Marshal
Telosan
Jul 5 2010, 11:15 PM
That show's reputation is black around here,
I have no idea what that is supposed to mean. :lol:
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Deleted User
Deleted User

Sedulius
Jul 5 2010, 11:22 PM
Telosan
Jul 5 2010, 11:15 PM
That show's reputation is black around here,
I have no idea what that is supposed to mean. :lol:
Cause everything black is cool.

That's how Obama won, because he was black and "cool".
Quote Post Goto Top
 
Sedulius
Member Avatar
Field Marshal
Atticus
Jul 5 2010, 11:23 PM
Sedulius
Jul 5 2010, 11:22 PM
Telosan
Jul 5 2010, 11:15 PM
That show's reputation is black around here,
I have no idea what that is supposed to mean. :lol:
Cause everything black is cool.

That's how Obama won, because he was black and "cool".
Not everything black is not cool. Hip-hop culture is absolutely retarded. I have an urge to commit violence against hip-hop people. Jazz is cool. Several old big band and swing bands are cool, and some of the black ones are my favorite (i.e. The Ink Spots). If I hear someone call something black meaning cool, I'll call them gay meaning retarded.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Telosan
Member Avatar
The Foremost Intellectual Badass
To say something has a black reputation is to say that it's infamous. You know, black as the devil's soul/heart kind of thing?
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Deleted User
Deleted User

Sedulius
Jul 5 2010, 11:32 PM
Atticus
Jul 5 2010, 11:23 PM
Sedulius
Jul 5 2010, 11:22 PM
Telosan
Jul 5 2010, 11:15 PM
That show's reputation is black around here,
I have no idea what that is supposed to mean. :lol:
Cause everything black is cool.

That's how Obama won, because he was black and "cool".
Not everything black is not cool. Hip-hop culture is absolutely retarded. I have an urge to commit violence against hip-hop people. Jazz is cool. Several old big band and swing bands are cool, and some of the black ones are my favorite (i.e. The Ink Spots). If I hear someone call something black meaning cool, I'll call them gay meaning retarded.
Never said black wasn't cool. Its just the mainstream ideas, at least among most young people. Even if you don't like it, the rest of America thinks just because something is black, it has to be cool. Every white kid when they were young wanted to be black to be cool. We just wanted to be recognized by a black person as an "inside-out oreo".

Ha, don't even talk to me about jazz, the blues, or any legitimate black music. I worship that stuff.
Quote Post Goto Top
 
Telosan
Member Avatar
The Foremost Intellectual Badass
I never realized how much Americans are like the different kinds of Oreos.

Double stuffed, triple stuffed, mint, inside out, double chocolate, golden, mint, etc.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Sedulius
Member Avatar
Field Marshal
Wow. We went from Biblical interpretation to Oreos.

I understand the usage of black meaning dark in nature and the like (i.e. black comedy is dark comedy, not African-American comedy, but most people don't get that).
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Hastine
Member Avatar
Universi enim hic sumus.
 *  *  *  *  *  *
Telosan
Jul 5 2010, 11:58 PM
I never realized how much Americans are like the different kinds of Oreos.

Double stuffed, triple stuffed, mint, inside out, double chocolate, golden, mint, etc.
I'm so tempted to sig. :D

Union, I can see your point. Although I still think "fornication" is an extremely broad term when applied to Biblical ideas, you've convinced me that, for the most part, it isn't in the same category as adultery.

Also, the Golden Ass sounds like a hilarious book. I remember seeing a poster of it in my music class back in Grade 3 and, being the juvenile that I am was and not knowing the meaning of the poster, proceeded to laugh my ass off, pun oh-so-intended. Funny how St. Augustine was the guy who actually named the book. That just makes him even more awesome.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Nag Ehgoeg
Member Avatar
The Devil's Advocate

For general denunciation of fornication see:

Mt: 15:19, Mk 7:21, Acts 15:20, 29, 21:25, 1 Cor 6:13, 18, Gal 5:19, Eph 5:3, Col 3:5, 1 Thes 4:3, Rev 2:14, 20-21, 9:21

Nothing specifically about sex before marriage, but the traditional Jewish view of fornication is pre-martial sex and adultery.

I didn't take the time to parse the text for the Greek to distinguish the exact sex acts being denounced. I just culled the references from elsewhere.

As an aside, have you heard of BPBible? It's the electronic bible I use: it has plug-ins for various translations, commentaries and greek hewbrew dictionaries for easy referencing. Plus there's a fully portable version you can stick on a USB.

Personally, I'm with you. But you'll find very few prescriptions against sex before marriage specifically. The reason for this is that up until fifty years ago sex before marriage was lustful. Period. Marriage was the sanctifier, that before god made sex good rather than evil. This is for a myriad of reasons. You need to talk to a Rabbi. Or to look for passages about marriage and being fruitful.
Edited by Nag Ehgoeg, Jul 6 2010, 12:36 PM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
ZetaBoards - Free Forum Hosting
Fully Featured & Customizable Free Forums
Learn More · Register Now
« Previous Topic · Off-Topic · Next Topic »
Add Reply