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StarCraft
Topic Started: Jun 18 2010, 01:58 AM (1,008 Views)
Menhad
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ET2(IDW)
The reason why there is so much cheese (Early Game Rush/harass) is because a lot of players aren't comfortable with a build strategy yet. I've found mine as Terran, and will rape almost anyone if it turns into a macro (Long term) game. I'm still working on beating the cheese, and this has manly been the source of my defeats.

As for the campaign, it gets off to a slow start, and some mission are so stupidly simple/easy. But once you get to the Zeratul missions.... Well I'll let you find out.
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Paradise
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Resident bureaucrat

Rhadamanthus
Jul 29 2010, 07:03 PM
Paradise
Jul 29 2010, 06:57 PM
Damn. I just went to four different stores, and SC2 is backorder everywhere! :angry:

What a waste of time.
I just walked into Best Buy and got a copy.
There is no Best Buy here.

I went to Future Shop, Ebgames, Zellers and Wal-Mart. No copy left.

I guess it will have to wait.
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Aelius
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Norman Warlord
Paradise
Jul 29 2010, 08:07 PM
Rhadamanthus
Jul 29 2010, 07:03 PM
Paradise
Jul 29 2010, 06:57 PM
Damn. I just went to four different stores, and SC2 is backorder everywhere! :angry:

What a waste of time.
I just walked into Best Buy and got a copy.
There is no Best Buy here.

I went to Future Shop, Ebgames, Zellers and Wal-Mart. No copy left.

I guess it will have to wait.
Internets? I got mine via Amazon.
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Aelius
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Norman Warlord
Any StarCraft 2 players: my e-mail's lansdallius@gmail.com, if you're looking to add me.
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Sedulius
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Field Marshal
Rhadamanthus
Jul 29 2010, 04:59 PM
Sedulius
Jul 29 2010, 12:54 AM
Al Araam
Jul 29 2010, 12:35 AM
Sedulius
Jul 28 2010, 01:59 AM
Lansdallius
Jul 27 2010, 08:35 PM
Al Araam
Jul 27 2010, 07:52 PM
It's fun for now, but how's your tolerance for being repeatedly and savagely stomped by Koreans? I feel that's what's really going to make or break this game for you in the long run.
Not so great, it would seem. :dry: Played through the multiplayer since I'm reviewing the game for my college newspaper. I barely started pumping out units, three games in a row I get bumrushed with a full force within ten minutes.

I think I'll be staying to playing with friends if I do much more multiplayer. I like the campaign mode so far, though.
And how is that not exactly like C&C?

Same damn thing happens in C&C 3 multiplayer.
Because while C&C3 might be a passing fad, Starcraft is the official religion of Korea, as it has been for almost 13 years.
That doesn't answer my question. Seems to me its the same damn game if you can win it in the same way. I have no interest in static "strategy".
Strategy in Starcraft isn't static. It shifted and changed continually over a decade.
You guys had to keep arguing. I honestly find what you're saying hard to believe. StarCraft is not the God of all strategy games. It's just some game that you guys played when you were young so you act like it is. It's a lot like how Halo fans act as if Halo is God, but it is really just an average shooter.

So, say what you will to convince yourselves that your average games are the best things out there. That said, I honestly can't think of a good strategy game that balances fun with difficulty. It's as if it's one or the other, or neither. Total war is fun, but too easy. Stronghold 2 was somewhat challenging, but only because you had to nitpick between a ridiculous amount of things, literally having to pick up people's shit, which drains the fun.

Meh, just my opinion. I get sick of hearing about a game over and over again as if it's the best thing on God's green Earth when it isn't.
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Rhadamanthus
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Legitimist

Sedulius
Jul 30 2010, 02:41 AM
Rhadamanthus
Jul 29 2010, 04:59 PM
Sedulius
Jul 29 2010, 12:54 AM
Al Araam
Jul 29 2010, 12:35 AM
Sedulius
Jul 28 2010, 01:59 AM
Lansdallius
Jul 27 2010, 08:35 PM
Al Araam
Jul 27 2010, 07:52 PM
It's fun for now, but how's your tolerance for being repeatedly and savagely stomped by Koreans? I feel that's what's really going to make or break this game for you in the long run.
Not so great, it would seem. :dry: Played through the multiplayer since I'm reviewing the game for my college newspaper. I barely started pumping out units, three games in a row I get bumrushed with a full force within ten minutes.

I think I'll be staying to playing with friends if I do much more multiplayer. I like the campaign mode so far, though.
And how is that not exactly like C&C?

Same damn thing happens in C&C 3 multiplayer.
Because while C&C3 might be a passing fad, Starcraft is the official religion of Korea, as it has been for almost 13 years.
That doesn't answer my question. Seems to me its the same damn game if you can win it in the same way. I have no interest in static "strategy".
Strategy in Starcraft isn't static. It shifted and changed continually over a decade.
You guys had to keep arguing. I honestly find what you're saying hard to believe. StarCraft is not the God of all strategy games. It's just some game that you guys played when you were young so you act like it is. It's a lot like how Halo fans act as if Halo is God, but it is really just an average shooter.

So, say what you will to convince yourselves that your average games are the best things out there. That said, I honestly can't think of a good strategy game that balances fun with difficulty. It's as if it's one or the other, or neither. Total war is fun, but too easy. Stronghold 2 was somewhat challenging, but only because you had to nitpick between a ridiculous amount of things, literally having to pick up people's shit, which drains the fun.

Meh, just my opinion. I get sick of hearing about a game over and over again as if it's the best thing on God's green Earth when it isn't.
If you don't like StarCraft, then don't post in the StarCraft thread. As it is right now, you just sound like someone who doesn't know what he's talking about.

Meh, just my opinion. I get sick of hearing you complain about people talking about things when you could just not read the threads about them.

Seriously Sed - when you go out of your way to start random meaningless arguments, you don't get to complain that someone continues them.
Edited by Rhadamanthus, Jul 30 2010, 08:19 AM.
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New Harumf
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Bloodthirsty Unicorn
Rhadamanthus
Jul 29 2010, 07:03 PM
Paradise
Jul 29 2010, 06:57 PM
Damn. I just went to four different stores, and SC2 is backorder everywhere! :angry:

What a waste of time.
I just walked into Best Buy and got a copy.
Damn those Canadians and their tarrifs!
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Aelius
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Norman Warlord
Sedulius
Jul 30 2010, 02:41 AM
You guys had to keep arguing. I honestly find what you're saying hard to believe. StarCraft is not the God of all strategy games. It's just some game that you guys played when you were young so you act like it is. It's a lot like how Halo fans act as if Halo is God, but it is really just an average shooter.

So, say what you will to convince yourselves that your average games are the best things out there. That said, I honestly can't think of a good strategy game that balances fun with difficulty. It's as if it's one or the other, or neither. Total war is fun, but too easy. Stronghold 2 was somewhat challenging, but only because you had to nitpick between a ridiculous amount of things, literally having to pick up people's shit, which drains the fun.

Meh, just my opinion. I get sick of hearing about a game over and over again as if it's the best thing on God's green Earth when it isn't.
Sed, I like Starcraft. I also like Total War, C&C, Civ, and most strategy games. I generally don't like multiplayer unless playing with friends. The campaign for StarCraft II is fun, in a more narrative way than some other strategy games. Mind you, I reviewed the game for my college newspaper, and I think StarCraft II, as a whole, isn't as good as Empire, but they're different games, and they're both good, fun games. I usually don't try to stick to fanboy lines, I play what I think is fun.

I'm waiting to see the narrative they go for with Shogun II. I find myself in need for a good story.
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Menhad
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ET2(IDW)
Lansdallius
Jul 29 2010, 11:00 PM
Any StarCraft 2 players: my e-mail's lansdallius@gmail.com, if you're looking to add me.
Menhadien@gmail.com

To Sed: StarCraft isn't the greatest strategy game ever, its one of the greatest competitive strategy games ever. Not to mention it has the best story line of any SciFi video games (Halo is so based off of it, Protoss=Convent, Zerg=Flood, Terrans=UNSC). But I doubt I am going to convince you to change your opinion of it, just as I doubt you will change my opinion of it. Stronghold 2 was a horrid game btw....

To RD: Who are you and what have you done to our RD? Never seen you this angry....
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Rhadamanthus
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Legitimist

T.O.
Jul 30 2010, 11:17 AM
To RD: Who are you and what have you done to our RD? Never seen you this angry....
:lol: I'm actually not that angry. I'm pretty laid back right now, if you believe it, since I finished my bar examination yesterday. I was, however, kind of annoyed, that Sed feels the need to continue to state his dislike of StarCraft. I mean, we all heard him the first time, right? After a while, it just gets tiring.
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New Harumf
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Bloodthirsty Unicorn
So, how long until the scores come out, RD?
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Rhadamanthus
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Legitimist

New Harumf
Jul 30 2010, 12:25 PM
So, how long until the scores come out, RD?
They'll come out in November! This'll be quite a wait :shy:
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Sedulius
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Field Marshal
T.O.
Jul 30 2010, 11:17 AM
Lansdallius
Jul 29 2010, 11:00 PM
Any StarCraft 2 players: my e-mail's lansdallius@gmail.com, if you're looking to add me.
Menhadien@gmail.com

To Sed: StarCraft isn't the greatest strategy game ever, its one of the greatest competitive strategy games ever. Not to mention it has the best story line of any SciFi video games (Halo is so based off of it, Protoss=Convent, Zerg=Flood, Terrans=UNSC). But I doubt I am going to convince you to change your opinion of it, just as I doubt you will change my opinion of it. Stronghold 2 was a horrid game btw....

To RD: Who are you and what have you done to our RD? Never seen you this angry....
StarCraft as one of the greatest competitive strategy games... I can agree with that, simply because it is what it is. Stronghold 2 being a horrid game... I wouldn't say that much. Most people hated it because it had too many things you had to balance. Once you master that part though, it gets pretty fun. Point is, you shouldn't have to master that part to get to the fun. Now Stronghold Legends... that was the most terrible game ever made. The team that made that should be shot.

I'll grant that StarCraft is probably fun. But it's probably only as fun as C&C or good ol' Age of Empires II. It is what it is. My only point is it is not all people crack it up to be, as if it is the greatest game ever. I hate repeating myself.

RD, if someone can't give a negative point of view about something, then we can't very well have an open and free discussion.
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Tristan da Cunha
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Science and Industry
If you believe you are helping to foster an open discussion with statements such as "you guys had to keep arguing" then I would have to advise you to work on your understanding of the English language and I would agree it is better for you to not post in a thread at all, since you are just discouraging open and free discussion.

My advice would be for you to find something else to get sick about. No one is forcing you to enjoy Starcraft.

You got your basic assertions wrong though; Starcraft strategies constantly evolved since the game first came out. Its staying power is something unheard of for video games even though there are many other games that have stronger nostalgia value than Starcraft. I refer to Starcraft 1, not the Starcraft franchise as a whole. Starcraft is almost like chess, a game that has been around forever but with constantly evolving permutations of strategy. Nobody is forcing you to enjoy chess either (and I personally don't enjoy chess)
Edited by Tristan da Cunha, Jul 30 2010, 02:41 PM.
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Rhadamanthus
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Legitimist

Sedulius
Jul 30 2010, 02:17 PM
RD, if someone can't give a negative point of view about something, then we can't very well have an open and free discussion.
Sed, you said that Starcraft strategies were static. I pointed out that that was not true. You responded by complaining that people "had to keep arguing." That is hardly fostering an open and free discussion. Just the opposite, as TC has pointed out, and of course, TC has further expanded on why you were wrong.

The problem isn't you criticizing it - its making statements about things like how you are sick of hearing people praise it. If you are sick of it, you can simply avoid the thread. Complaining about other people's liking the game serves no purpose - it certainly does not promote open and free discussion. Nor does coming up with arbitrary theories about how people must obviously only like the game due to nostalgia. Just to be clear, I don't care that you don't like the game - that is your right. But when you say things or behave in a way that does not seem like it is in good faith, expect me to call you on it.
Edited by Rhadamanthus, Jul 30 2010, 03:40 PM.
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Nag Ehgoeg
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The Devil's Advocate

Sedulius
Jul 30 2010, 02:17 PM
I'll grant that StarCraft is probably fun. But it's probably only as fun as C&C or good ol' Age of Empires II. It is what it is. My only point is it is not all people crack it up to be, as if it is the greatest game ever. I hate repeating myself.
I remember StarCraft being fun, back when it was new, before I took it online to get zerg rushed by angry asians and the pizza eaters from beyond the pond. I didn't stick with it long enough to see zerg rushing get nerfed or really appreciate the continuing unfolding of strategies. But it was a pretty deep game that wasn't too involved, had a great universe and was very fun. End of.

The C&C series is one of the greatest RTS series of all time (barring the most recent game, which I haven't played). AoE2 is one of the most enjoyable RTS games I've ever played - I prefer it vastly to the simplicity of the Total War games (granted, I've only played Rome and Shogun). If you're saying that StarCraft is only as good as some of the most fun and successful gaming franchises out there... I don't really see what you're arguing.

I am far more annoyed with the C&C fanbase than the StarCraft fanbase. Maybe there's a lot more fanboy hype in the States than here in the UK... but StarCraft 2 is only getting about as much publicity as Fallout 3 did (and Halo 3 when that was new) here. And people care only about as much.

StarCraft was good. It was "stand the test of time" good. It was "people play it because it's still fun, not because of nostalgia" good. It's not the greatest game of all time. No-one here is claiming it is (unless I missed something).

People are allowed to be excited about sequels to good games Sed.

For arguments sake, let's say that EA didn't run the AoE franchise into the ground. Let's say after AoE 2 there were no more "Age of" games. You would expect people not to be excited about AoE 3? (Hell, I still play AoM.)

I honestly don't know what you're complaining about Sed. It just looks as if you're complaining about people liking a game you've never played.

I do see a complaint where you seem butt-hurt that you (you personally, Sed) don't know how to defend yourself from getting rushed in C&C3 and you seem to think that StarCraft is a bad game because you might also get rushed if you played that. Not to make this a personal attack, but I play C&C3 a lot. If you can't defend an early game rush, you're... very, very, very bad at the game - perhaps you should play offline for a bit to get your skill level up before complaining just because people are better than you? (Seriously dude, practice against the computer when it's set to a real difficulty.) As has been pointed out, there's more to StarCraft 2 than "play zerg, rush zerglings": that there is a rich tapestry of strategies constantly being woven for the (well balanced) original game and that new strategies are emerging for this new game. Having not played StarCraft 2, I can't really comment on how likely you are to get rushed by Koreans or how feasible it is to defend yourself - but I'd rather trust the opinions of players than stick to preconceived notions based in abject fantasy.

In every game it is possible to rush the enemy. Doesn't mean that you can (reliably) win that way or that every RTS game is the same and not worth playing.

If your argument is that SC isn't good because it has some similarities with C&C, then the Unreal Tournament games aren't any good because they're like XS. Master of Orion sucks because it's like Civ. Stronghold is basically the worst game in the world, being Medieval Sim City. Who in the hell wants to play American Football when they could play real Football/Soccer and who'd want to play Football when you could play Cricket instead!

In chess, one of the best ways to win is to get a piece to the far side of the board. That does not make it the same game as Checkers, British Bulldog, Shove-Ha'penny, Rubgy, Halma and Frustration.
Edited by Nag Ehgoeg, Jul 31 2010, 10:45 AM.
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Ulgania
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A better Zarathustra has never rode a horse
The Activision-Blizzard relationship has pretty much killed gaming imo.
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Menhad
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Ulgania
Jul 31 2010, 02:54 PM
The Activision-Blizzard relationship has pretty much killed gaming imo.
Fixed
Edited by Menhad, Jul 31 2010, 03:22 PM.
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Aelius
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Norman Warlord
T.O.
Jul 31 2010, 03:22 PM
Ulgania
Jul 31 2010, 02:54 PM
The Activision-Blizzard relationship has pretty much killed gaming imo.
Fixed
This.

EDIT: If anyone's interested, my review of the game for the OU Daily.
Edited by Aelius, Jul 31 2010, 10:59 PM.
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Sedulius
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Nag Ehgoeg
Jul 31 2010, 09:43 AM
I am far more annoyed with the C&C fanbase than the StarCraft fanbase. Maybe there's a lot more fanboy hype in the States than here in the UK... but StarCraft 2 is only getting about as much publicity as Fallout 3 did (and Halo 3 when that was new) here. And people care only about as much.
If Ireland is the same way in that respect, then it's a win-win for me.

But really, I think you missed my point entirely Nag. I'm annoyed about Starcraft for the same reason I'm annoyed about Halo. People hype it too much when it really isn't that great. I'm not saying it's bad. I'm saying it's average. Just as C&C is average. The only reason I like original C&C over Starcraft is the style. C&C styling is semi-realistic modern military, StarCraft is futuristic ground and space, but the styling is simply too silly for me, just like the rest of Blizzard's games. But that's just my opinion.

Furthermore, I didn't say I couldn't defend against rushes. I can, it's just that I think that it's about the silliest tactic out there, and I lose respect for a game in which rushing is so easy, and I lose respect for players that do so as well. And that's most so-called real time "strategy" games. Let's just say that I'm hard to please.
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Tristan da Cunha
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Science and Industry
Well, your opinion is registered as long as you don't attempt to "discourage open discussion." As for the issue of rushing from my perspective it's a contingency that adds a layer of strategic depth to the game by establishing early-game, mid-game, and end-game strategies. And the pace of gameplay obviously defines the game, which can't be changed, so it won't be a fit for everyone.
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Sedulius
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Tristan da Cunha
Aug 2 2010, 02:10 PM
Well, your opinion is registered as long as you don't attempt to "discourage open discussion." As for the issue of rushing from my perspective it's a contingency that adds a layer of strategic depth to the game by establishing early-game, mid-game, and end-game strategies. And the pace of gameplay obviously defines the game, which can't be changed, so it won't be a fit for everyone.
See, to me rushing adds a layer of silliness to an RTS game. That said, I suppose any game that has base and unit building is going to have that problem. Well, except maybe for Sins of a Solar Empire, given the large scale. Rushing is possible on a small map, but it's not really possible on the large ones. Yet the game still gets too easy, at least against the AI. Haven't been able to play it against people much.
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Aelius
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Norman Warlord
This thread has spawned an ad for "StarCraft Secrets." :lol:

The campaign is getting very interesting. Getting into the last third of the game.
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Menhad
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Lansdallius
Aug 2 2010, 04:11 PM
This thread has spawned an ad for "StarCraft Secrets." :lol:

The campaign is getting very interesting. Getting into the last third of the game.
Yeah, at first I was like "Wtf blizzard, fire all your story writers?" but after getting to the Zeratul Mission (and beyond) I was like "OMFG!!1!11! Th1S 1s s0 L33T!!!1!!11"

Edit: I've been meaning to try sins. But today I won five games straight(out of five played), all but one of them against some player who tried to rush. (2 Protoss players tried to cannon rush, and 2 Zerg players tried baneling busts. I handle those quite nicely and then proceeded to butt rape them. The other guy went straight to dark templars, which I saw, and built my ravens to see them. They still did some nasty damage, caught me going up a ramp, but it wasn't enough.)

I've got my build order down pat, and will continue to rape.... I hope.
Edited by Menhad, Aug 2 2010, 04:41 PM.
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Nag Ehgoeg
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The Devil's Advocate

Sedulius
Aug 2 2010, 03:09 PM
Tristan da Cunha
Aug 2 2010, 02:10 PM
Well, your opinion is registered as long as you don't attempt to "discourage open discussion." As for the issue of rushing from my perspective it's a contingency that adds a layer of strategic depth to the game by establishing early-game, mid-game, and end-game strategies. And the pace of gameplay obviously defines the game, which can't be changed, so it won't be a fit for everyone.
See, to me rushing adds a layer of silliness to an RTS game. That said, I suppose any game that has base and unit building is going to have that problem. Well, except maybe for Sins of a Solar Empire, given the large scale. Rushing is possible on a small map, but it's not really possible on the large ones. Yet the game still gets too easy, at least against the AI. Haven't been able to play it against people much.
Blitzkrieg is silly?
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