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Celtic Church/Roman Reformation
Topic Started: Jan 22 2010, 04:47 PM (242 Views)
Sedulius
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I am reviving the Celtic Catholic Church and continuing with the Roman Reformation movement. Please don't be threatened by this, it is only intended for good RP.

I am currently IC in the process of searching for a pure man to be the new Primate of Ireland and thus the leader of the movement. It is in the Purity thread in the European Continent. Please, if anyone is interested in that RP, PM me.

Also, if anyone is interested in being part of the Roman Reformation movement, please participate. You can begin by switching part of your local Catholic church to -insert cultural adjective here- Catholic Church (For example, Venetian Catholic Church, German Catholic Church, French Catholic Church, Edessan Catholic Church, etc). I encourage you to put the name of your local church in the local tongue.

The purpose of the Roman Reformation movement is to bring the Roman Catholic Church back to certain traditions, including election of the Pope. It is different in this way from the Genesians, and it is different than the Colognians in that it is pre-Vatican II reforms. We can decide overall how we want to reform. Personally, I am going to make the Celtic Catholic Church fall somewhere in equivalence to the era in which the Celtic Rite and Romanized Celtic Rite existed (which is before and during the Carolingian dynasty).

I realize some of my data may be wrong. I'm not sure if the Colognians are indeed Vatican II (I was under the impression they were equivalent to the modern RL Roman Catholics). I know that some would say that Genesianism has been the way the Roman Catholic Church has always been on the forum, and I know before they were offended by my attempts at reform. Firstly, I say that unless someone will put together an entire description of the history of the Genesian Catholic Church, then there is no way to know what CE intended for its history without having to dig all over for it. As some have said, history is open before present day. I think if we just all act rational about this, we should be able to come to a reasonable understanding.

Secondly, know that I am not trying to hijack the Roman Catholic Church. Admittedly, I did try to before. That was foolish and I apologize. I can understand how you all felt with the recent Celtic situation. This time, it is not meant to hijack whatsoever. It is meant only to add variety to the forum and to produce good RP. I don't realistically believe I'll ever get a Pope in Rome, which is why I'm adopting the idea of a spiritual leader in the form of the Primate of Ireland (just as Orthodoxy recognizes the Patriarch of Constantinople as its spiritual leader, as the first among equals, but not as some absolute head).

I would also like to write a certain thought. I'd like to think of this Roman Reformation movement, the Genesian Catholic Church, and the Colognian Catholic Church as all part of the Roman Catholic Church. (I suppose when it gets going you could call my church the Reformed Catholic Church. I don't intend to make it truly Protestant.) I view the Popes of the Genesians and Colognians as sort of Popes and Antipopes within the Church. We can all, of course, view each other as heresies. Funny, because by the Orthodox my church would probably just be viewed as a sect.
Edited by Sedulius, Jan 22 2010, 04:47 PM.
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Nag Ehgoeg
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The Devil's Advocate

Sedulius
Jan 22 2010, 04:47 PM
Firstly, I say that unless someone will put together an entire description of the history of the Genesian Catholic Church, then there is no way to know what CE intended for its history without having to dig all over for it.
Watch this space. Or that space. Over in the Middle East. Kazakhstan thread. That space.

There was a point where the Pope was elected, if that was what you were getting at. Reform back to that point seems perfectly reasonable.

Opposition from IC churches feeling threatened is good RP.
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NRE
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Map Tsar and Southern Gentleman

This all seems reasonable, us Genesian nations will of course argue, point fingers, and call "heretic" IC, but OOC I think it will add a new dynamic to the forums much in the way the Colognians did during their height.
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Telosan
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Quote:
 
You can begin by switching part of your local Catholic church to -insert cultural adjective here- Catholic Church (For example, Venetian Catholic Church, German Catholic Church, French Catholic Church, Edessan Catholic Church, etc). I encourage you to put the name of your local church in the local tongue.
This will make infinitely more sense. An Italian nation's main religion is Celtic. That kind of bugged me.

If you don't get a Pope in Rome, how about a Pope NEAR Rome?

~~~~~

BTW, since I don't want to go through the trouble of making my own religion and throwing the religious balance of power in the air again, is it possible that this Roman Reformation could be different by region, but still united under the same banner? I was intending on creating my own Roman Catholic religion, with Saint Mark the Evangelist (Venice's patron saint. It's his lion that's on the flag.) as the inspiration. Can I just create a Venetian/Evangelist subreligon and still have it be part of the movement, or would it be considered a spin off like all the millions of minor religions out there?
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Sedulius
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Telosan
Jan 22 2010, 10:04 PM
is it possible that this Roman Reformation could be different by region, but still united under the same banner?
That is actually exactly what I'm shooting for. I want the parts of this reformation to be unique, but united in purpose. In other words, they should have the same, unifying doctrine (that is, their rules and beliefs and the like), but their rites could be entirely unique (their traditions and "culture" and the like). Hence, I would have something of a Romanized Celtic Rite, and you could come up with some unique Venetian Rite.

As far as doctrine, well, that will take a lot of research to put together. I will come up with a list in time, as that is something planned that will be integral to the RP. As far as the Pope, he must be elected in Rome. To do otherwise is to defeat one of the movement's purposes. This is fine. It doesn't need a Pope to function.

EDIT: Know that as far as doctrine goes, I'm shooting for a sort of "doctrinal purity". There was an argument before that said this would make us not much different than the Orthodox. However, consider that the Irish of the 8th century, though in communion with the Orthodox, were very different in their rites, and somewhat different in their doctrines. They, afterall, were responsible for the spreading of Catholicism throughout France and Germany. Charlemagne was responsible for bringing about the Roman Rite to make the Church unified in tradition. They stayed in communion with the Orthodox, who held to the Byzantine Rite and even differed in doctrine. It was the difference in doctrine that led to the eventual split. The Church we make would be just as different.
Edited by Sedulius, Jan 23 2010, 01:06 PM.
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Hastine
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I'm willnig to participate in the Roman Reformation, if it's not dominated by Celtic ideals and is simply a call for restoration of the Pope to Rome, among other things. Sperry, though it's government is secular, currently follows the Sperian Catholic Church, with the Archbishop of Armague as its leader. It follows the vast majority of Roman Catholic law and follows the pope (though not currently, due to the Cologne/Genesis Schism), but follows the Sperian Rite, which is somewhat different from the Roman Rite.

Sperry freed itself from the Roman Empire in 305 AD and established the first Christian state in Western Europe, and therefore has had a mindset for two millenia that it has an important role to play in Christianity, at least equal to that of Rome. This obviously led to conflicts with the papacy when the later began to rise in power after the fall of the Roman Empire, and the expansion of the Holy Roman Empire by Charlemagne, which Sperry resisted militarily, caused further rifts, since the Pope didn't recognize Sperry as the successor to the Roman Empire, which it had claimed at the time. The Sperian Catholic Church finally split with Rome when the papacy moved to Avignon in the early 1300's, which was considered heretical by King Henry IV and the contemporary Archbishop of Armague. With the advent of the Protestant Reformation however, Sperry returned to communion with Rome in exchange for the right to practice its own rites. But finally, when popes were proclaimed in both Genesis and Cologne but not in Rome, the Sperian Catholic Church remained part of the Roman Catholic Church but declared that only the Archbishop of Armague was fit to lead the Sperians at that point in time, since the Pope was, and is, considered in absentia, and the pretenders to the papacy in Cologne and Genesis are considered anti-popes.

Call these delusions of grandeur if you want, lol, but that's the state of the Catholic Church in Sperry. So I'd be interested in participating in this. Basically, we're waiting for the Papacy to be one once again, and placed in Rome; but since that's not happening, in the meantime the Sperian Catholic Church will govern itself. So the idea of a Roman Reformation is very appealing to Sperian Catholics.
Edited by Hastine, Jan 27 2010, 12:00 AM.
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Sedulius
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Well, I think you fully understand my idea then. The movement, however, wants to do a bit more than restore the Pope to Rome (currently IC the Genesian Pope controls Rome, though I think he rules from the city of Hamburg or Bremen). It wants to have a Pope elected in Rome as the Bishop of Rome (and hence, Pope of Roman Catholicism). I'd also like to a bit more with the movement than simply do such a papal restoration, but rest assured I don't plan to dominate the movement with the ideas of the Celtic Church. I rather just want to make it appealing to Roman Catholics in general. I'm shooting for old-style Catholicism rather than modern, so older traditions and doctrine and the like, but without certain of the doctrines and practices that really just seemed to be added on in the middle ages and onward.

Essentially, I suppose the movement wishes a return to older times for the Roman Catholic Church. But it is between all of us that we decide where we want it to go, I suppose.
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Kasnyia
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Frankly I see no point in forcing the church back to what it basically is in RL, as that takes away from the uniqueness of Catholocism in our world. Even though I essentially just inherited Cologne rather than did anything with it, I haven't killed it off (by turning it into the Church of Kasnyia) because it represents a big part of the IC world's history.

As such, I would support developing Cologne and Genesis according to the events of the forum naturally, as opposed to going out of the way to force it back to Roman Catholicism. After all, Cologne and Genesis represent the two eras of the RL church in terms of doctrine and practical actions.
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Sedulius
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Ah, no, you misunderstand Kas. Doing that would be just underhanded towards the forum. I'm definitely not shooting for changing Genesianism or Colognianism, nor to surplant them. I want this situation to go how it naturally would. This is just the formation of a separate Catholicism (even if it does see all of them as part of the whole, being the Roman Catholic Church).

This reformation movement, as I explained in my last post, will certainly not take Catholicism to what it is in real life, though I hope for it to become something similar to what it was a millennium ago (late 8th to turn of the millennium). It will be something unique in the forum.

That said, I thought Colognianism was equivalent to modern Catholicism, discounting that it doesn't have a Pope in Rome.
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Kasnyia
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It is, while Genesis is the old school Papacy.
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Telosan
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Quote:
 
Sperry freed itself from the Roman Empire in 305 AD and established the first Christian state in Western Europe, and therefore has had a mindset for two millenia that it has an important role to play in Christianity, at least equal to that of Rome. This obviously led to conflicts with the papacy when the later began to rise in power after the fall of the Roman Empire, and the expansion of the Holy Roman Empire by Charlemagne, which Sperry resisted militarily, caused further rifts, since the Pope didn't recognize Sperry as the successor to the Roman Empire, which it had claimed at the time. The Sperian Catholic Church finally split with Rome when the papacy moved to Avignon in the early 1300's, which was considered heretical by King Henry IV and the contemporary Archbishop of Armague. With the advent of the Protestant Reformation however, Sperry returned to communion with Rome in exchange for the right to practice its own rites. But finally, when popes were proclaimed in both Genesis and Cologne but not in Rome, the Sperian Catholic Church remained part of the Roman Catholic Church but declared that only the Archbishop of Armague was fit to lead the Sperians at that point in time, since the Pope was, and is, considered in absentia, and the pretenders to the papacy in Cologne and Genesis are considered anti-popes.
How long did it take you to establish the entire story, as I assume this is just a summary.

As I understand it, Cologne is most similar to modern day Catholicism. I see Genesis as the church was around the late Middle Ages, 100 years war time. I had thought that Sed's movement wanted to go back to the time when Catholicism was just gaining ground, like after the Roman Empire.

Vespery, you can have your own "branch" within the movement. I intend on having Venice having different rites and such.
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Sedulius
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Genesis is not medieval/old-style period. Look up the Medici popes. That's the period it seems to be modeled after.

Main point: popes were mainly elected throughout all of history. Only under the Medicis was there kind of a family monopoly on the papacy. Genesis is like the Medicis in permanent power. Scary thought.
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Toussaint
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Telosan
Jan 27 2010, 03:08 PM
How long did it take you to establish the entire story, as I assume this is just a summary.
If he's importing his old nation statistics, then this hardly even scratches the surface of how detailed his country will be. It's quite the work.
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Hastine
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Telosan
Jan 27 2010, 03:08 PM
Quote:
 
Sperry freed itself from the Roman Empire in 305 AD and established the first Christian state in Western Europe, and therefore has had a mindset for two millenia that it has an important role to play in Christianity, at least equal to that of Rome. This obviously led to conflicts with the papacy when the later began to rise in power after the fall of the Roman Empire, and the expansion of the Holy Roman Empire by Charlemagne, which Sperry resisted militarily, caused further rifts, since the Pope didn't recognize Sperry as the successor to the Roman Empire, which it had claimed at the time. The Sperian Catholic Church finally split with Rome when the papacy moved to Avignon in the early 1300's, which was considered heretical by King Henry IV and the contemporary Archbishop of Armague. With the advent of the Protestant Reformation however, Sperry returned to communion with Rome in exchange for the right to practice its own rites. But finally, when popes were proclaimed in both Genesis and Cologne but not in Rome, the Sperian Catholic Church remained part of the Roman Catholic Church but declared that only the Archbishop of Armague was fit to lead the Sperians at that point in time, since the Pope was, and is, considered in absentia, and the pretenders to the papacy in Cologne and Genesis are considered anti-popes.
How long did it take you to establish the entire story, as I assume this is just a summary.

As I understand it, Cologne is most similar to modern day Catholicism. I see Genesis as the church was around the late Middle Ages, 100 years war time. I had thought that Sed's movement wanted to go back to the time when Catholicism was just gaining ground, like after the Roman Empire.

Vespery, you can have your own "branch" within the movement. I intend on having Venice having different rites and such.
The whole history was kinda developed over several years when I was on the Western Europe forum, although back then I had more leverage on my part to claim an important part in Christendom, considering my old plot (Galicia, Northern Portugal, Castile and Asturias) contained Santiago de Compostela and the lucrative pilgrimage route that came with it. ^^ But this plot contains all the immediate land pilgrimage routes to Santiago as well, so meh, lol. Either way, it's been in my mind for quite some time and is now beign transferred from my old nation (Pyria) to my new one (Sperry).

But yeah, it's basically a summary that I plan to fully iron out when I write my nation's history. And being a seperate branch of the whole Roman Reformation, though being in alliance with other Reformed Catholic churches, is what I'm aiming at.
Edited by Hastine, Jan 28 2010, 12:13 AM.
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Hastine
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Is this going to continue, or did it die an early death?
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Sedulius
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It has been continuing. Padraig, Archbishop of Armagh, Primate of Ireland, is the head of the movement. It still runs strong in the English Republic and Venice. The Order of Saint Patrick, the Order of St. Mark, and the Order of St. George are all knightly orders loyal to the Reformation.

I suppose at this point we are calling it the Reformed Catholic Church.

The movement will gain or lose much strength depending on what happens in Ireland.
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Telosan
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The English Republic is in on it, too? I never knew that...

Right now, the religion is only shared among a small group of close allies. As a result of Sperry and Venice's recent fight, as well as the general lack of communication with the other members of the Reformation, the movement might gain more credibility.
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