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What motivates you??
Topic Started: Nov 1 2009, 04:08 AM (1,050 Views)
Telosan
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The Foremost Intellectual Badass
Esternarx
Nov 1 2009, 10:16 PM
I was just about to say the same thing, E.

:lol:
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flumes
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CLEVELAND ROCKS!
I was originally a very traditional conservative.

That has changed to more of a libertarian/conservative.

That at least in small part due to this forum. Some specific ideologies of mine have been even more heavily impacted by experiences here...
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flumes
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Atticus
Nov 1 2009, 10:15 PM
E is a typical radical libertarian right?
:lol:

Posted Image
Edited by flumes, Nov 1 2009, 10:19 PM.
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Rhadamanthus
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Legitimist

Atticus
Nov 1 2009, 10:15 PM
Rhadamanthus
Nov 1 2009, 10:09 PM
Atticus
Nov 1 2009, 10:04 PM
Are you trying to say that these opinions are for the better, or for the worse?

If they have become more hostile, then yes, I think people may have become slightly more aggressive towards him.

If they have become more sympathetic towards his ideals, then why aren't people supporting him? I sure haven't seen anybody truly defend his perspective or ideas.

I don't need to have been on these forums for that long to know that, all I have to do is a little reading.
No, that doesn't make any sense at all.

In order to measure change, you need to have a number of data points over time. Esternarx was making a statement about changes over the course of his time in the forum. You are attempting to extrapolate from one data point, the way people react to his opinions in the current period (the last few months). One data point is not a trend. Without studying the prior data, you can't tell how people have changed. Whether they defend or criticize E tells you nothing, because you don't know how much they criticized or defended him before.

Also, he didn't say they were becoming more receptive to him - he said moving toward libertarian ideals. Moving in a libertarian direction doesn't logically require them to become more supportive/less critical of E, because E's views have also changed/developed over the years. Once again, if you were familiar with the data, this would be obvious.
E is a typical radical libertarian right? So if people are "moving toward libertarian ideals," then doesn't that mean that they would support him, since he is in fact a libertarian? Logically, if you like an ideal, then you support and agree with the people who advertise and display those Ideas.
:rolleyes:

No.

You can move in a direction and not like the ideas of somebody who is also in that direction. And someone who isn't a radical will generally be critical of the radical, even if the moderate has moved somewhat in the radical's direction. Oh yeah, and libertarianism (like, the most non-conformist ideology ever) is not monolithic. And, as I mentioned before, E has been moving too. He is not in the same place politically that he was a few years ago.

You seem to be completely missing the comparative aspect.

edit: After this post, Esternarx interpreted his post. There is no point in us debating it anymore, since he has spoken for himself.
Edited by Rhadamanthus, Nov 1 2009, 10:32 PM.
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East Anarx
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Anarchitect

I want to make it clear that I certainly didn't mean to suggest that my influence had anything to do with these changes, only that I'd observed them. I think a significant part of culture is shifting liberty-wards, and this forum only stands out to me because it is highly political by nature, so changes can be more readily observed. If anything, my occasional pedantry and generally trollish behavior is likely responsible for much of the hostility in this forum directed towards libertarian ideas.
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Deleted User
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Wow, so this debate was for nothing.
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Telosan
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Most debates are.
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Allesandra
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 *  *  *  *  *
Yay useless debates!

:lol:
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Rhadamanthus
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Useless debates motivate me :lol:
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Telosan
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Here's a debate that has value! Let's argue whether all cake, pie, and cookies should be free and supplied by every educational and culinary establishment in America.

Oooh, and chocolate. Chocolate should be free. There should be a holiday in which everyone gets bucketfulls of chocolate for no reason whatsoever.

EDIT: Yay! I've officially lost my mind after 4 days of no sleep! WOOOOOOOO!
Edited by Telosan, Nov 1 2009, 10:52 PM.
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Rhadamanthus
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Telosan
Nov 1 2009, 10:51 PM
Here's a debate that has value! Let's argue whether all cake, pie, and cookies should be free and supplied by every educational and culinary establishment in America.

Oooh, and chocolate. Chocolate should be free. There should be a holiday in which everyone gets bucketfulls of chocolate for no reason whatsoever.

EDIT: Yay! I've officially lost my mind after 4 days of no sleep! WOOOOOOOO!
I vote no. That sounds like mass theft.
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Telosan
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Chocolate is the best thing to ever happen to the human race since the invention of fire. We give it to girls we like to make them happy. We give it to kids to make them happy. We give it to mothers and grandmothers to make them happy if only until they complain about their weight.

Chocolate is like legal cocaine, only better. It'll kill you if you eat enough of it, it makes you happy, and it's just awesome.
Edited by Telosan, Nov 1 2009, 10:57 PM.
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Tristan da Cunha
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I would say the people on this forum (including E) have heavily influenced me, politically and in many other respects such as writing.

Anyways. Back to the topic at hand, namely this motivational piece of music, the theme song for NFL on Fox. Listening to it I'm motivated to microwave and eat a huge plate of Mexican food after not eating for the whole day due to various BS. This is going to be good.

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flumes
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CLEVELAND ROCKS!
You know what motivates me?

How ADD we are. :lol: :lol: ^^
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Telosan
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flumes
Nov 1 2009, 11:03 PM
You know what motivates me?

How ADD we are. :lol: :lol: ^^
:lol:

I noticed that. How many threads have been thrown off topic in the past month?

TC's trying to ignore my chocolate debate! Chocolate should not be ignored! :angry:
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Neither should football or mexican food. :angry:
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Telosan
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We were talking about chocolate first!

Besides, football is pointless compared to the awesomeness of chocolate. As is mexican food since it's not chocolate.
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New Harumf
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Tristan da Cunha
Nov 1 2009, 11:01 PM
I would say the people on this forum (including E) have heavily influenced me, politically and in many other respects such as writing.

Anyways. Back to the topic at hand, namely this motivational piece of music, the theme song for NFL on Fox. Listening to it I'm motivated to microwave and eat a huge plate of Mexican food after not eating for the whole day due to various BS. This is going to be good.

What has always amazed me about this theme is how it breaks right into the Christmas song "giddy-yep, giddy-tep, giddy yep lets go, let's look at the snow..." I never understood that, musically. Is it just theft??

I have changed dramatically due to E's presence on the form, politically-wise. I will NOT tell you how.
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East Anarx
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Glorious Dawn & ATTN#6 motivate me.
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Aelius
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Telosan
Nov 1 2009, 10:51 PM
Chocolate should be free. There should be a holiday in which everyone gets bucketfulls of chocolate for no reason whatsoever.
Sigged. I agree entirely with your statement. Plus you've given me an idea for Kandy. :D
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Eleytheria-Duo
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Esternarx
Nov 1 2009, 08:40 PM
I don't recall saying you were a threat to the free world. Either way, you don't seem like much of a threat. You haven't presented a single logical argument in favor of institutionalized coercion, so I'm not too worried about your capacity to foil the anarchist revolution. It will happen whether you try to stop it or not.
:rolleyes:

It was more of an ancient-told joke than a serious statement. All I will reply with is, I believe what I believe, and even if your little revolution does take hold the only way to prevent me from attempting to stop it is to have me killed, as I absolutely refuse to submit to Anarchist views. So, if it comes to it, I will resist what I consider to be mindless chaos, and you will resist what you consider senseless tyranny. So when it comes straight down to it ... You, dear E, are essentially my sworn enemy and vice-versa, it will continue to be so until one of us ceases to draw breath. A conclusion I both doubt will and hope not to see fulfilled.
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Al Araam
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E, you're correct. My title has been changed to reflect a change in my personal political beliefs, which have undoubtedly shifted towards liberalism in a significant way. I think it's fair to say that observing and participating in political debates on this forum have had some influence in this shift, as has the fact that I've had the opportunity to study political ideologies and the concept of justice in greater depth than ever before. If I had to describe my current political understanding, I would say that I sympathize with the ideals of both classical liberals and classical conservatives, which I don't believe to be at odds in the least.

My personal ideology is deeply shaped by liberalism, but that Liberalism is tempered by the fact that I don't share the understanding of the basic nature of human beings that one must to truly believe in the absolute supremacy of liberalism. I see and read about human beings doing terrible things to each other every day, and so I don't know that I buy the idea that the state of nature is a paradise. I don't have any real trust in government for this same reason. Government is a human invention, composed of and perpetuated by human beings. If the state is evil, it is evil because we have made it that way. Government has inherited the flaws of the humans who begot it.

As I mentioned earlier, Conservatism plays into it as well. I take it as a fact well supported by reflection on the history of government and of man that it is fully impossible to determine each and every ramification of any given policy or action before taking that action. We can determine the majority of the effects through careful use of logic and some educated guesswork, sure, but that is not the same as full knowledge of what we are doing. The world is so complex that it cannot be fully understood by any group of individuals. Therefore, as appealing as any policy may sound, it is best to enact that policy gradually so that its effects can be studied and fully understood. The more radical the policy, the more slowly it should be implemented so that unforeseen consequences can be counteracted. This has applications for the most minute of policies, but when I am confronted with a departure from the status quo so radical as Anarchism, I mentally begin preparing a timeline for its implementation which spans a century or more. For every consequence I have foreseen (repeatedly. And which you, E, have refused to recognize as legitimate.) there will likely arise at least one more upon the full implementation. Given the seriousness of the issues that have been foreseen with Anarchism, I am of the mind that the unforeseen consequences will substantial.

I know that whole diatribe isn't going to make you particularly happy, E, but I'm just calling it like I see it. Maybe you haven't been awakened to the dark side of human nature that I see every time I open my door or glance at a newspaper. Perhaps it's better that you haven't. I don't know that I'm better of for my cynicism, no matter how well founded. Then again, perhaps I am just wholly wrong and you are wholly correct. We may never know.

I will admit, at the very least, that the idea that one has solely negative responsibilities to those around oneself is highly attractive. If I found myself more enamored of our nature as a species, I think I would quite like Anachism and all the ideas that go with it. But my view of the world, and nearly everything about this world is political, has been irreversibly altered by the things I have seen.

As a final and unrelated comment:
One major problem I have with anarchism which isn't based in Conservatism is that I do not believe the metaphorical "sins of the father" should shape the entire existence of later generations. I am a capitalist at heart and I believe in it wholeheartedly to the extent that I believe that it rewards personal merit. I do not, however, recognize the existence of familial merit, which any observer of the system must admit is also rewarded wholeheartedly by capitalism. One person's life should not be shaped by what family they have the fortune or misfortune of being born into. That is a problem with the capitalist system as it exists now, and Anarchism cannot help but make this problem worse.
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Tristan da Cunha
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The sociological notion of "familial merit" has a genetic basis, since many economically pertinent traits (such as intelligence, mental stability, and physical traits) are heritable to a large degree. The idea of familial merit is therefore a sociological adaptation to genetic realities, just as "personal merit" is also a sociological adaptation to the very real and unavoidable genetic fact that some individuals are born smarter, prettier, and/or even more-hardworking than others. Heritability is not perfect though, and there will always be a chance that a no-good lout is born to highly qualified parents and we all personally know many examples. But the odds exist and predominate, and familial merit is an economically valid sociological adaptation to genetic realities, imperfect though it is.

That's all immaterial though. Even if biological human traits cannot be inherited at all for whatever reason, family is a strong motivator for many people (if not most people) to work hard, to accumulate wealth so that it may be passed on to their children. Therefore the idea of family merit should not be eliminated. "Family merit as a motivator" might be most plainly illustrated in the lower classes, where people are often motivated to work hard so their children don't have to toil like their parents in low-paying, low-status physical jobs. Even in the upper classes people often seek to maximize their wealth not just for themselves but also for their heirs. Family has always been a powerful motivator for economic productivity, and in historical examples forcible involuntary alteration of these personal-familial connections resulted in lowered motivation, lowered economic productivity and economic distortion.
Edited by Tristan da Cunha, Nov 2 2009, 12:36 PM.
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Telosan
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Lansdallius
Nov 1 2009, 11:38 PM
Telosan
Nov 1 2009, 10:51 PM
Chocolate should be free. There should be a holiday in which everyone gets bucketfulls of chocolate for no reason whatsoever.
Sigged. I agree entirely with your statement. Plus you've given me an idea for Kandy. :D
A few minutes after I wrote that I thought of Kandy. National Chocolate Day. Could be the equivalent of a mix between the 4th of July (with fireworks that rain molten chocolate) and Thanksgiving.
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Sedulius
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I am motivated by God.

My philosophy is best said by the Hospitaller in the film Kingdom of Heaven:

"I put no stock in religion. By the word religion I have seen the lunacy of fanatics of every denomination be called the will of god. I have seen too much religion in the eyes of too many murderers. Holiness is in right action, and courage on behalf of those who cannot defend themselves, and goodness. What god desires is here [points to head] and here [points to heart] and what you decide to do every day, you will be a good man - or not."

That's been my favorite movie since 2005.
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