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Obama: Nobel Peace Prize Winner
Topic Started: Oct 9 2009, 10:02 AM (1,327 Views)
Porcu
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"Work is the curse of the drinking classes."

Atticus
Oct 10 2009, 11:33 PM
They have been raised on these misguided teachings of Allah, and religion is everything to them.
And therein lies the problem. :rolleyes:
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Ulgania
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A better Zarathustra has never rode a horse
Atticus
Oct 10 2009, 11:33 PM
Ulgania
Oct 10 2009, 11:27 PM
Atticus
Oct 10 2009, 11:21 PM
Ulgania
Oct 10 2009, 11:19 PM
Atticus
Oct 10 2009, 11:17 PM
I say we just blow them all up. :unsure:
Why? There's a massive amount of economic potential in that area! If we get them to take the focus off opium and on to cash crops there's massive economic potential for the businesses/firms that would be handling the crops, which YOU could be a part of!
Think about it like this, they have been fighting for hundreds of year, and absolutely nothing has solved it. So if we completely kill the problem, then we are good. But do you think any of those people will accept a United Sates business over there? No, we'd be shot before sunrise.

Also, think of what the media will say in the Headline news:

Americans exploit Afghans
Then get the EU to do it. Either way, in the end cash speaks louder than religion. Thus the opium.

Mind you, who says it needs to be a government-sponsored venture? Wal-Mart could step in and say "hey, we have a proposal", and the gears would be in motion.
I'm pretty sure these people aren't that retarded and can put 2 and 2 together and get that Wal-Mart is American. There is no way you can pay these people to lose their traditions. They have lived all their lives hating Americans, why should they like us now? They have been raised on these misguided teachings of Allah, and religion is everything to them. You can't offer them money to strip away their religion. If you did, you would have to pay them gratuitous amounts of money, but you surely couldn't pay all of them.
I feel like a point was missed in there somewhere...
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Tristan da Cunha
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Science and Industry
Ulgania
Oct 10 2009, 10:21 PM
Scenario: Obama pulls out of Afghanistan.

Media does stories on former pro-US/anti-Taliban villages that have been "left to the wolves", as a resurgent militancy takes power in Kabul. Obama is blamed.

Obama is not reelected in 2012.

...what motivation does he have to end that war right now.
He should be motivated by the fact that Americans don't/won't care about what happens in Afghanistan. With so much unemployment and economic troubles afflicting the US at home, stories about villages in Afghanistan are irrelevant just like stories about Darfur were irrelevant.

The sooner he pulls the troops out of Afghanistan, the better it is for him politically, because by 2012 all the voters will have forgotten about the odd little war from 3 or 4 years ago.

Right now, and not tommorrow, is the perfect timing for Obama to pull out of Afghanistan. Polls show the majority of Americans are now opposed to the Afghanistan war, so it shouldn't be difficult for him politically to end that war (if you don't count his obligations to the lobbyists for the military contractor corporations).

Ulgania
 
Why? There's a massive amount of economic potential in that area! If we get them to take the focus off opium and on to cash crops there's massive economic potential for the businesses/firms that would be handling the crops, which YOU could be a part of!


Lol, there's no massive amount of economic potential in Afghanistan, besides the opium. Wal-Mart has everything it needs from some sweatshop in China. What more does it need from Afghanistan? Afghanistan's only competitive advantage is its climate ideal for opium production.

The reason opium is grown in Afghanistan is because opium is many times more profitable than any other alternative economic activity given the terrain, manpower, and resources in that country. How do you propose we magically "get" the Afghans to "take the focus off opium"? Instead, embargos on Afghan poppies should be lifted, and Americans should be allowed to trade opium with the Taliban. Right now, Americans buy billions of $ worth of opium from Turkey for the manufacture of opium-derived medical anesthetics. Why not allow the Taliban to compete with the Turks and sell Afghan opium to American anesthetics manufacturers? Competition would lower prices on pharmaceuticals and healthcare costs in the US, while also uplifting the Afghan farmers instead of suppressing their economic survival.

Trade with America will also moderate the Taliban just as trade with America moderated North Vietnam, even though North Vietnam was our intractable sworn enemy during the war and killed 500,000 Americans. But with trade relations, water is under the bridge and John McCain is even considered a hero in Vietnam these days.

Turkey loves the American policy of suppressing Afghan opium. To them, the American policy is nothing more than a god-sent suppression of Turkey's competitors in the opium poppy sector.
Edited by Tristan da Cunha, Oct 11 2009, 10:42 AM.
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Tristan da Cunha
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Ulgania
Oct 10 2009, 10:55 PM
A central government to keep the tribal regions in Pakistan separated from those in Afghanistan is still rather necessary. But Pakistan is just another problem in itself. Also keeping opium under control is another issue...
Why should the tribal regions in Pakistan be separated from those in Afghanistan?
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Ulgania
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A better Zarathustra has never rode a horse
Tristan da Cunha
Oct 11 2009, 10:17 AM
Ulgania
Oct 10 2009, 10:55 PM
A central government to keep the tribal regions in Pakistan separated from those in Afghanistan is still rather necessary. But Pakistan is just another problem in itself. Also keeping opium under control is another issue...
Why should the tribal regions in Pakistan be separated from those in Afghanistan?
Because the brass in Islamabad would never allow it. They have a forward capital, they're never going to give up that which they believe belongs to them. Any talk of losing anything within their borders would be out of the question for them. In fact, they're more likely to take up a neo-colonial attitude to the tribal region than others at this point, just to be able to exert whatever control they can.

And... the fact you fixated on Wal-Mart means you missed the point too. It's an example, one of dozens. I'll rephrase.

Mind you, who says it needs to be a government-sponsored venture? Company/firm/corporation/for profit NGO X could step in and say "hey, we have a proposal", and the gears would be in motion.

It would have to be one part of something bigger, not the only part
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Tristan da Cunha
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Science and Industry
Let Islamabad take over the tribal regions in Afghanistan then. America has no vested interest in the status quo borders, which are a liability. Doesn't it strike you as absurd that trillions of dollars and many hundreds and thousands of lives, American and otherwise, are being sunk in to defend a worthless status quo ink scratch on a map? The current Afghan-Pakistan border is completely arbitrary.

I know precisely what you meant when you mentioned Wal-Mart, and I used Wal-Mart for humorous effect. The fact that you've fixated on my comment about Wal-Mart just means you missed the point. It's laughable that the extent of your economic analysis consists of a mental image of a corporate suit going "hey we have a proposal" and "setting the gears in motion."

Protip: opium is Afghanistan's most successful economic sector for rational reasons, and not you and not a private company, whether Wal-Mart or Joe's Crab Shack, can just magically "get" the Afghans to abandon opium.

In fact, if you let the "free market" in on Afghanistan and let company/firm/corporation/for-profit NGO to step into Afghanistan, the free market will likely be finding ways to profit from, and further develop, Afghanistan's opium industry (both licit and illicit). As I said, the best and most straightforward way to pacify the region is for the US to normalize relations with the Taliban and to let the American pharmaceuticals industry invest in Afghanistan's opium fields - at least that will help siphon resources away from the illicit narcotics trade. But your dream of do-gooder private companies growing golden fields of "alternative cash crops" in Afghanistan is a pipe dream. What are they going to grow? Wheat?
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East Anarx
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Anarchitect

Damn Elitists. Equality is a moral fact of nature. Liberty is the solution to all social and economic problems.
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Ulgania
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A better Zarathustra has never rode a horse
I'm tired and I've been in solitude for a few days, gimme a break :lol:

I'm fine being an elitist, it fits my ego well.

But, should a political system find its way into Afghanistan/Pakistan that keeps the people in a relatively stable environment, wouldn't developing the opium market be an unsustainable practice? Never underestimate the western media's power to blow a story out into the open, and get people pissed off enough to go into action of some kind.

Okay, screw it, just bomb'm to hell.
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Porcu
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"Work is the curse of the drinking classes."

"Bomb, bomb, bomb...Bomb, bomb Iran..."

Oops, wrong country! :rolleyes:
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Porcu
Oct 11 2009, 01:51 PM
"Bomb, bomb, bomb...Bomb, bomb Iran..."

Oops, wrong country! :rolleyes:
Who says their excluded, When i said to blow of those countries, I meant the entire middle east, except for Israel.
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Rhadamanthus
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Legitimist

Atticus
Oct 11 2009, 08:25 PM
Porcu
Oct 11 2009, 01:51 PM
"Bomb, bomb, bomb...Bomb, bomb Iran..."

Oops, wrong country! :rolleyes:
Who says their excluded, When i said to blow of those countries, I meant the entire middle east, except for Israel.
Why except for Israel? They are just as much trouble as any of those other countries?

:rolleyes:
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Deleted User
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well they don't support terrorism, plus their people hate muslims and would be well off with them gone.
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Union
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Pyrenees Republic
Quote:
 
Equality is a moral fact of nature


Lolz.
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Quaon
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A Prince Amoung Men-Shoot First and Ask Questions Later
Quote:
 
Who says their excluded, When i said to blow of those countries, I meant the entire middle east, except for Israel.
There have been many idiotic things said on this forum as of late. Everything pales in comparison to this statement.
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Telosan
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The Foremost Intellectual Badass
Quote:
 
Scenario: Obama pulls out of Afghanistan.

Media does stories on former pro-US/anti-Taliban villages that have been "left to the wolves", as a resurgent militancy takes power in Kabul. Obama is blamed.

Obama is not reelected in 2012.
Scenario: [Republican president] pulls out of Afghanistan.

Media does stories on former pro-US/anti-Taliban villages that have been "left to the wolves", as a resurgent militancy takes power in Kabul. [Republican president] is blamed.

[Republican president]'s most terrible act is publicized for years.

~~~~~

Scenario: [Democratic president] pulls out of Afghanistan.

Media does stories on the new "peace" and how many American lives are saved. The media doesn't shut up about it for months, maybe still mentioned in passing for years.

[Democratic president] re-elected.

~~~~~

Scenario: Obama pulls out of Afghanistan.

Media does stories on the second coming of the Messiah (or equivalent for every religion) who has brought peace to our nation. Approval ratings skyrocket back to the top.

Obama is declared the king of America in 2012.

...

Okay, maybe the last one was a bit exaggerated.

EDIT:
Quote:
 
Who says their excluded, When i said to blow of those countries, I meant the entire middle east, except for Israel.
:lol: Israel is the CAUSE of half, if not most, of the dissent and violence in the Middle East.
Edited by Telosan, Oct 11 2009, 08:48 PM.
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Quaon
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A Prince Amoung Men-Shoot First and Ask Questions Later
Quote:
 
Scenario: [Republican president] pulls out of Afghanistan.

Media does stories on former pro-US/anti-Taliban villages that have been "left to the wolves", as a resurgent militancy takes power in Kabul. [Republican president] is blamed.

[Republican president]'s most terrible act is publicized for years.

~~~~~

Scenario: [Democratic president] pulls out of Afghanistan.

Media does stories on the new "peace" and how many American lives are saved. The media doesn't shut up about it for months, maybe still mentioned in passing for years.

[Democratic president] re-elected.

~~~~~

Scenario: Obama pulls out of Afghanistan.

Media does stories on the second coming of the Messiah (or equivalent for every religion) who has brought peace to our nation. Approval ratings skyrocket back to the top.

Obama is declared the king of America in 2012.

...

Okay, maybe the last one was a bit exaggerated.
Americans everywhere do really have a persecution complex; it's like a desperate desire to be part of a minority group that's being oppressed. It's so funny when fundamentalists pretend that the evol liberalz areimpinging on their rights and that teh naehzi commi goberment wants to turn everyone gay when the vast majority of the country doesn't particularly like gay people. I also find it funny when liberals get up in arms about the right to an abortion being threatened when they control more or less every apparatus of the federal government.
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Union
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Pyrenees Republic
Oppressed minority groups get sympathy, and with sympathy, preference. It is the cultural effect of affirmative action on people. Is it correct? No, but you cannot remove the perception that the victim is always in the right, even when they are not.
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Telosan
Oct 11 2009, 08:46 PM
EDIT:
Quote:
 
Who says their excluded, When i said to blow of those countries, I meant the entire middle east, except for Israel.
:lol: Israel is the CAUSE of half, if not most, of the dissent and violence in the Middle East.
Well, if the Muslims were more accepting of other religions, then there wouldn't be the problem in the first place.
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Rhadamanthus
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Legitimist

Atticus
Oct 11 2009, 09:07 PM
Telosan
Oct 11 2009, 08:46 PM
EDIT:
Quote:
 
Who says their excluded, When i said to blow of those countries, I meant the entire middle east, except for Israel.
:lol: Israel is the CAUSE of half, if not most, of the dissent and violence in the Middle East.
Well, if the Muslims were more accepting of other religions, then there wouldn't be the problem in the first place.
So you are saying that the cause of all the problems is people being intolerant?
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Deleted User
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Rhadamanthus
Oct 11 2009, 09:08 PM
Atticus
Oct 11 2009, 09:07 PM
Telosan
Oct 11 2009, 08:46 PM
EDIT:
Quote:
 
Who says their excluded, When i said to blow of those countries, I meant the entire middle east, except for Israel.
:lol: Israel is the CAUSE of half, if not most, of the dissent and violence in the Middle East.
Well, if the Muslims were more accepting of other religions, then there wouldn't be the problem in the first place.
So you are saying that the cause of all the problems is people being intolerant?
I guess so...
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flumes
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CLEVELAND ROCKS!
Atticus
Oct 11 2009, 09:09 PM
Rhadamanthus
Oct 11 2009, 09:08 PM
Atticus
Oct 11 2009, 09:07 PM
Telosan
Oct 11 2009, 08:46 PM
EDIT:
Quote:
 
Who says their excluded, When i said to blow of those countries, I meant the entire middle east, except for Israel.
:lol: Israel is the CAUSE of half, if not most, of the dissent and violence in the Middle East.
Well, if the Muslims were more accepting of other religions, then there wouldn't be the problem in the first place.
So you are saying that the cause of all the problems is people being intolerant?
I guess so...
Irony
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Porcu
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"Work is the curse of the drinking classes."

Atticus
Oct 11 2009, 09:07 PM
Telosan
Oct 11 2009, 08:46 PM
EDIT:
Quote:
 
Who says their excluded, When i said to blow of those countries, I meant the entire middle east, except for Israel.
:lol: Israel is the CAUSE of half, if not most, of the dissent and violence in the Middle East.
Well, if there was no religion, then there wouldn't be a problem in the first place.
Fix'd
Edited by Porcu, Oct 11 2009, 10:45 PM.
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Deleted User
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flumes
Oct 11 2009, 09:33 PM
Atticus
Oct 11 2009, 09:09 PM
Rhadamanthus
Oct 11 2009, 09:08 PM
Atticus
Oct 11 2009, 09:07 PM
Telosan
Oct 11 2009, 08:46 PM
EDIT:
Quote:
 
Who says their excluded, When i said to blow of those countries, I meant the entire middle east, except for Israel.
:lol: Israel is the CAUSE of half, if not most, of the dissent and violence in the Middle East.
Well, if the Muslims were more accepting of other religions, then there wouldn't be the problem in the first place.
So you are saying that the cause of all the problems is people being intolerant?
I guess so...
Irony
how is it irony?

Because I'm intolerant of them being intolerant?
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Deleted User
Deleted User

Porcu
Oct 11 2009, 10:45 PM
Atticus
Oct 11 2009, 09:07 PM
Telosan
Oct 11 2009, 08:46 PM
EDIT:
Quote:
 
Who says their excluded, When i said to blow of those countries, I meant the entire middle east, except for Israel.
:lol: Israel is the CAUSE of half, if not most, of the dissent and violence in the Middle East.
Well, if there were no Muslims, then there wouldn't be a problem in the first place.
Fix'd
Fix'd
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Aelius
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Norman Warlord
Atticus
Oct 11 2009, 10:54 PM
Porcu
Oct 11 2009, 10:45 PM
Atticus
Oct 11 2009, 09:07 PM
Telosan
Oct 11 2009, 08:46 PM
EDIT:
Quote:
 
Who says their excluded, When i said to blow of those countries, I meant the entire middle east, except for Israel.
:lol: Israel is the CAUSE of half, if not most, of the dissent and violence in the Middle East.
Well, if there were no people, then there wouldn't be a problem in the first place.
Fix'd
Fix'd
Fix'd.
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