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The Rome Question
Topic Started: Sep 19 2009, 06:30 PM (589 Views)
Sedulius
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Okay. My thoughts are organized on this issue.

I know Nag, Kas, and others would like to wait for the actual IC conflict, but we can continue discussion on the issue.

My stance on this is:

Genesian players have a right to Rome. But Orthodox and other Catholic players have just as much right to it. You can't just push the other players aside just because it wouldn't make sense IC.

Another way I see it: Rome has been in Genesian hands, what, the entire history of the forum? Isn't it time for a change? The Genesian Church doesn't need to die, but it doesn't have to be the continuing dominant Catholic Church either.

In all fairness, power should change hands, as would realistically happen. Otherwise, if we want to be completely fair and give everyone a slice of Rome, then we should figure out an IC way to make it work. That's why I proposed the wall. The Genesians have already fortified Rome like crazy IC, a wall through it isn't much of a leap.
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Nag Ehgoeg
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Yeah...

No.

Doesn't make sense to just "decide" to split Rome.

If you want Rome, make a proposal IC. See it shot down. Launch a crusade. Fight a long and bitter campaign for your Right to Rome. When the dust settles, see what happens.

I'm pretty sure that no-one is stopping you from having a pilgrimage to Rome (someone correct me if I'm wrong) but power doesn't just "change hands" "because that's what power does".

Power only changes hands for a reason. A reason that we've got going over in IR. I don't really see what you're getting at with your last post.
Edited by Nag Ehgoeg, Oct 2 2009, 05:29 PM.
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Sedulius
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Nag Ehgoeg
Oct 2 2009, 05:21 PM
Yeah...

No.

Doesn't make sense to just "decide" to split Rome.

If you want Rome, make a proposal IC. See it shot down. Launch a crusade. Fight a long and bitter campaign for your Right to Rome. When the dust settles, see what happens.

I'm pretty sure that no-one is stopping you from having a pilgrimage to Rome (someone correct me if I'm wrong) but power doesn't just "change hands".
You misunderstand, Nag. Of course I mean to have full RPs, hopefully including war RPs. But aren't war RPs supposed to have some sort of end agreed upon?

When I say we should decide to split Rome, I'm talking of the decision being made OOC. The vast majority of my last post is about decisions being made OOC, and them implementing them logically through IC RP.

EDIT: Power always changes hands given time. Forcing power to stay on one side is, methinks, a bit of an injustice to the other players.
Edited by Sedulius, Oct 2 2009, 05:31 PM.
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Nag Ehgoeg
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Sedulius
Oct 2 2009, 05:30 PM
Nag Ehgoeg
Oct 2 2009, 05:21 PM
Yeah...

No.

Doesn't make sense to just "decide" to split Rome.

If you want Rome, make a proposal IC. See it shot down. Launch a crusade. Fight a long and bitter campaign for your Right to Rome. When the dust settles, see what happens.

I'm pretty sure that no-one is stopping you from having a pilgrimage to Rome (someone correct me if I'm wrong) but power doesn't just "change hands".
You misunderstand, Nag. Of course I mean to have full RPs, hopefully including war RPs. But aren't war RPs supposed to have some sort of end agreed upon?

When I say we should decide to split Rome, I'm talking of the decision being made OOC. The vast majority of my last post is about decisions being made OOC, and them implementing them logically through IC RP.
Would it not make more sense to RP and come upon a logical conclusion through IC negotiation?

Aside from (frankly) bullying players into accepting a "fair" OOC agreement then inventing IC reasons for that to happen, I don't see how we can achieve what you're asking for.

If we war this out and it turns out that someone's [going to nuke Rome/has unleashed biological weapons leaving it devoid of life/come to the realisation that this war isn't worth while/decided that it's time to give up] then we'll reach a conclusion that makes sense IC.

Otherwise, I think it's just going to be forced.

****

I'm not going to pretend to be impartial here:

Nag Ehgoeg has a vested interest in keeping Rome Genesian. I practically begged you guys to set this post-Dominion. I'm not going to "Dominion-hammer" Rome because it would totally derail this story and kill off the fun. But...

Those looking to carve up Rome have it easy in the amount of opposition they face, but still...

I can't help but feel that the desire to "share Rome" is best compared to the desire of a flee to satisfy an elephant.
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Rhadamanthus
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My view is as follows. I've been talking to NRE. We're going to be doing other stuff regarding this before the Dominion is dead. So the post-Dominion RP regarding Rome are being done without even knowing what the diplomatic and political situation looks like there in the post-Dominion period. So none of these discussions make sense to me.
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lebowski2123
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Sedulius
Oct 2 2009, 05:07 PM
Rome has been in Genesian hands, what, the entire history of the forum? Isn't it time for a change? The Genesian Church doesn't need to die, but it doesn't have to be the continuing dominant Catholic Church either.

In all fairness, power should change hands, as would realistically happen. Otherwise, if we want to be completely fair and give everyone a slice of Rome, then we should figure out an IC way to make it work. That's why I proposed the wall. The Genesians have already fortified Rome like crazy IC, a wall through it isn't much of a leap.
Power would not realistically change hands until a) All members of the existing, dominant authority are substantially weakened or wiped out or b)A new movement of greater power arises to create a change in power.

Neither of these have occurred, and it is precisely because of precedent that the Genesians should continue to hold Rome. If we wanted to be completely fair, I would RP my nation being in Ireland, because I have just as much a right to desire it and be interested in it as you do. But wait, I can't really do that can I, since you've already claimed that land? Gee, I guess I'll have to work out an IC agreement with you, or just wait until you vacate the area.
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NRE
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Nag Ehgoeg
Oct 2 2009, 05:45 PM
I practically begged you guys to set this post-Dominion.
Yeah there seems to be a great deal of confusion over the time-line and other issues regarding the taking of Rome. I've tried constantly to clear up the confusion but obviously its still an issue so I would PLEASE LIKE EVERYONE'S ATTENTION

ATTENTION

In taking of Rome, the Commonwealth moves in and takes Rome...

after the end of the Dominion war in Europe but NOT after the fall of Zapht.

Thus the Dominion and the Dominion wars are still ongoing at this particular point in time.

Secondly, though the Commonwealth took the city of Rome IT DOES NOT administer it as a colony or territory of the government of the Commonwealth. Rome in fact is an autonomous city government currently by a Regent until such time as we return to Pope to Rome.

Now it would help me personally if for the sake of time and energy that we hold off on the topic of Rome until after the Dominion wars are over. I ask, because as RD said I personally have a few other details about the taking of Rome to RP. These details will be RPed in a post Dominion world and if you'd like me to lay them on the table now I can, but I was just leave some element of surprise and then let the normal mechanisms of RPings take place.

I should also say that this current war between Venice and Prussia wasn't something ran by me and although I'm not saying it should it has create more and more problems with the Rome issue.
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Telosan
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The war between Venice and the TO started with Rome as the ignition. The plan is that no harm will come to Rome in the end. The war is JUST between TO and Venice, I only added the part with Rome to give the war a spring board and to make everything seem more intense. Plus, it justifies the actions of the TO.
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Sedulius
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lebowski2123
Oct 2 2009, 10:16 PM
Sedulius
Oct 2 2009, 05:07 PM
Rome has been in Genesian hands, what, the entire history of the forum? Isn't it time for a change? The Genesian Church doesn't need to die, but it doesn't have to be the continuing dominant Catholic Church either.

In all fairness, power should change hands, as would realistically happen. Otherwise, if we want to be completely fair and give everyone a slice of Rome, then we should figure out an IC way to make it work. That's why I proposed the wall. The Genesians have already fortified Rome like crazy IC, a wall through it isn't much of a leap.
Power would not realistically change hands until a) All members of the existing, dominant authority are substantially weakened or wiped out or b)A new movement of greater power arises to create a change in power.

Neither of these have occurred, and it is precisely because of precedent that the Genesians should continue to hold Rome. If we wanted to be completely fair, I would RP my nation being in Ireland, because I have just as much a right to desire it and be interested in it as you do. But wait, I can't really do that can I, since you've already claimed that land? Gee, I guess I'll have to work out an IC agreement with you, or just wait until you vacate the area.
Actually, E, we could come to an agreement. I had no idea you wanted some of Ireland. I'll PM you if you're being serious, and we can OOC negotiate it out how we want it to come out IC.

Point being, all IC negotiations having to do with land and war have underlying OOC negotiations.

No one has claimed Rome. It was just handed over to the Genesians despite contest. Should not any power in the region have been able to claim it? Why would the Roman Empire, a dominant sea power in the Mediterranean, simply let the Genesians pass by to take Rome, from which the Empire takes its name?

It doesn't make IC sense. It's OOC negotiation that has allowed it to happen.

The political situation in Italy post-war is pretty obvious. Things post-war have settled down. The way I see it, you guys are coming up with every excuse you can to keep it in Genesian hands which is unfair. RD granted the Genesians their own section in Constantinople. Why can't Rome be the same? Give me a good reason why it can't.

Now here's a good question. What do you guys really think I want out of this? Why am I pushing this issue so hard?
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lebowski2123
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Resident?
Personally it would seem to me that you're pushing for this so that your Church can move towards being on more equal footing with the Genesian Church.
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Rhadamanthus
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Sedulius
Oct 3 2009, 02:35 PM
lebowski2123
Oct 2 2009, 10:16 PM
Sedulius
Oct 2 2009, 05:07 PM
Rome has been in Genesian hands, what, the entire history of the forum? Isn't it time for a change? The Genesian Church doesn't need to die, but it doesn't have to be the continuing dominant Catholic Church either.

In all fairness, power should change hands, as would realistically happen. Otherwise, if we want to be completely fair and give everyone a slice of Rome, then we should figure out an IC way to make it work. That's why I proposed the wall. The Genesians have already fortified Rome like crazy IC, a wall through it isn't much of a leap.
Power would not realistically change hands until a) All members of the existing, dominant authority are substantially weakened or wiped out or b)A new movement of greater power arises to create a change in power.

Neither of these have occurred, and it is precisely because of precedent that the Genesians should continue to hold Rome. If we wanted to be completely fair, I would RP my nation being in Ireland, because I have just as much a right to desire it and be interested in it as you do. But wait, I can't really do that can I, since you've already claimed that land? Gee, I guess I'll have to work out an IC agreement with you, or just wait until you vacate the area.
Actually, E, we could come to an agreement. I had no idea you wanted some of Ireland. I'll PM you if you're being serious, and we can OOC negotiate it out how we want it to come out IC.

Point being, all IC negotiations having to do with land and war have underlying OOC negotiations.

No one has claimed Rome. It was just handed over to the Genesians despite contest. Should not any power in the region have been able to claim it? Why would the Roman Empire, a dominant sea power in the Mediterranean, simply let the Genesians pass by to take Rome, from which the Empire takes its name?

It doesn't make IC sense. It's OOC negotiation that has allowed it to happen.

The political situation in Italy post-war is pretty obvious. Things post-war have settled down. The way I see it, you guys are coming up with every excuse you can to keep it in Genesian hands which is unfair. RD granted the Genesians their own section in Constantinople. Why can't Rome be the same? Give me a good reason why it can't.

Now here's a good question. What do you guys really think I want out of this? Why am I pushing this issue so hard?
Actually NRE and I are going to be RPing negotiations regarding Genesis and Rome before the Dominion falls. We just haven't gotten to that point in the RP yet.
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Sedulius
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lebowski2123
Oct 3 2009, 03:46 PM
Personally it would seem to me that you're pushing for this so that your Church can move towards being on more equal footing with the Genesian Church.
That's along the lines what I wanted someone to say. You're quite off. "My" church isn't my church, and my goals aren't only my goals. To assume I'm the only one gaining something from what I suggest is silly.

But if RD and NRE are in negotiation, then I'll wait to see what they come up with. Please, keep me informed.
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Telosan
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Sedulius
Oct 4 2009, 01:55 PM
lebowski2123
Oct 3 2009, 03:46 PM
Personally it would seem to me that you're pushing for this so that your Church can move towards being on more equal footing with the Genesian Church.
That's along the lines what I wanted someone to say. You're quite off. "My" church isn't my church, and my goals aren't only my goals. To assume I'm the only one gaining something from what I suggest is silly.

But if RD and NRE are in negotiation, then I'll wait to see what they come up with. Please, keep me informed.
I'm under the impression that Sed's goal with this church is to offset the contant rivalry of Genesian and Colongian churches. Orthodox is just a shadow that doesn't do much in comparison, while Judaism and Islam are almost non-existant.
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Sedulius
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Telosan
Oct 4 2009, 01:57 PM
Sedulius
Oct 4 2009, 01:55 PM
lebowski2123
Oct 3 2009, 03:46 PM
Personally it would seem to me that you're pushing for this so that your Church can move towards being on more equal footing with the Genesian Church.
That's along the lines what I wanted someone to say. You're quite off. "My" church isn't my church, and my goals aren't only my goals. To assume I'm the only one gaining something from what I suggest is silly.

But if RD and NRE are in negotiation, then I'll wait to see what they come up with. Please, keep me informed.
I'm under the impression that Sed's goal with this church is to offset the contant rivalry of Genesian and Colongian churches. Orthodox is just a shadow that doesn't do much in comparison, while Judaism and Islam are almost non-existant.
If no one gives them rivalry, the Genesians have no rivalry. I give it rivalry because no one else (save Telo) seems to be giving it any resistance.

The Genesian Church is at a point in the game where it can hardly be considered Catholic, and any real Catholic would quickly see what I'm speaking of. I'd rather see something acceptable by Catholic standards have some power in the game rather than some heretical Church have all the power. It's silly. It's because of the shit the Genesian Church pulls that a Reformation, Protestant or otherwise, would happen.

Wait a minute... that just gave me an idea. I've been going about this all wrong...

Then again, we'll see what happens with RD's and NRE's negotiations.

EDIT: Does anyone have a good current doctrine of the Genesian Church? I'd also be curious about the Orthodox and Colognian churches, if they have any differences from the RL modern Orthodox and Roman Catholic churches.
Edited by Sedulius, Oct 4 2009, 02:32 PM.
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Sedulius
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Okay, I withdraw my arguments. The new way is more creative. :gnarkgnark:

The Restoration will still try to take Rome IC. We'll see what happens.

Of course, I still hope to see the negotiations between RD and NRE bear fruit. It would be awesome to see an Orthodox Pope in Rome.
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Nag Ehgoeg
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Sedulius
Oct 4 2009, 02:24 PM
The Genesian Church is at a point in the game where it can hardly be considered Catholic, and any real Catholic would quickly see what I'm speaking of. I'd rather see something acceptable by Catholic standards have some power in the game rather than some heretical Church have all the power. It's silly. It's because of the shit the Genesian Church pulls that a Reformation, Protestant or otherwise, would happen.
There have been Reformations. Protestant reformations. If you Protest against the way the Bishop of Rome is running things then your church is Protest-ant. If you are in communion with the Bishop of Rome then your church is Catholic. That's kinda the definition.

No-one is stopping you from having a Protestant Church. Please do have a Protestant Church.

The most powerful nation in our world is the Islamic Super-State in Saudi Arabia. In response to such a militant hyper-religious nation, the Catholic Church acted in the interests of its own survival. Organically. Via RP. Over a period of years. Someone didn't sit down and say "now how can I mess up the church?" The Genesian Church is a fixture of this forum. It's one of the lynch pins. It's been here longer than I have - longer than anyone here but Paradise has.

I can see your problem with it, but we live in a world of hyper-militant French. A world that still has a Roman Empire. A world based on NationStates. Of course things are going to be different from their real life counterparts. Look at Pope Benedict XVI, and Pope John Paul II: the two most recent Popes got elected by towing the hard line in the face of secularisation and modernisation. Imagine the kind of candidate that would get in faced with the difficulties of our world and you see why the Church is like how it is today.
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Sedulius
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Nag Ehgoeg
Oct 4 2009, 04:04 PM
There have been Reformations. Protestant reformations. If you Protest against the way the Bishop of Rome is running things then your church is Protest-ant. If you are in communion with the Bishop of Rome then your church is Catholic. That's kinda the definition.

No-one is stopping you from having a Protestant Church. Please do have a Protestant Church.
You entirely miss what I'm going to do. Restoration is different from reformation.

Also, your logic is flawed. The Orthodox and Colognians protest against the Genesians, but they are not Protestant. They are also not in communion with any Bishop of Rome, yet they are both Catholic.

IRL, Eastern Orthodoxy is not in communion with Roman Catholicism, but both are technically Catholic.

There is no IC Bishop of Rome. I will ensure there is one. At least the Irish church will not protest against him, and hence it will be a communion. The question will be who else wishes to be in the communion.

As to how there will come to be a new Pope for my communion, that is to be revealed through IC.
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NRE
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Map Tsar and Southern Gentleman

Quote:
 
The Orthodox and Colognians protest against the Genesians, but they are not Protestant. They are also not in communion with any Bishop of Rome, yet they are both Catholic.


Actually that's a case of who you ask. Ask a Colognian, he calls himself a catholic. Ask an orthodox Christian, he may also call himself a catholic. Ask a Genesian about the two, and if he didn't call them heretics, he may very well call them Protestants.

Quote:
 
There is no IC Bishop of Rome.

Just because you can see air doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Just because the Pope isn't in Rome, doesn't mean he's not the Bishop of Rome. When the RL Pope leaves Rome on his trips to other countries does he stop being the Bishop of Rome?

The Genesian Church has based its Pope out of Catholic Europe's capital city of Genesis City. Though I cannot speak for CE, I have to believe this choice was because Rome wasn't on the map when he arrive here, therefore to have a capital on the map he had to choose a different city and picked the next best thing, Constantinople. However, though he may not live in Rome, the Genesian Pope has always held the title Bishop of Rome. The Pope crowned by Leb is no exception. So yes there is a Bishop of Rome as far as the Genesians see it.


An there is a problem with hammering down a Genesian Doctrine and that is that the church really the brainchild of one single player, who (like many of us) did change his mind from time to time either out of personal preference or because a new Pope took on a new "character" from the previous one. That said I do believe CE was something of a catholic himself so it wasn't as if the religion was foreign to him unlike myself.

Now in The Papal Bulls of Pope Urban XIII; The Theology of the Colognian Church, Wadj, who helped start the Colognian church (as it was primarily his brain child) states several differences between the infant Colognian church and that of the well established Genesian Church (third post from the top post). I believe you can use these difference (to a degree) to understand Genesian Doctrine.

Again, it can change from Pope to Pope. However, the Genesian church does allow to formations of inquisitions as forces to seek out heresy. Some countries, such as the HCC, have even taken the inquisition to the next level and made them into national police forces.

Secondly, the church has allowed Auto de fe, specifically the practice of burning heretics at the stake. After all, as in the historical church, heresy has been its greatest enemy and stamping it out is a must.

Of course then there are practices that are more nation specific, and while not "damned" by the church, I'm not sure you could call it a doctrine or policy of the church since some actions did not necessarily always receive a word of approval from the Pope. Specifically I mean instances where nations have expanded their borders with the express intent of bring civilization and faith to certain people (basically forcing the conversion of anyone within the zone they look to expand into). So while there are instances of "forced conversion" to the faith, I'm not entirely sure you can consider this a church doctrine. However, again I am no expert.

Of course Nag has made even better points than I on this matter and having been here longer and worked with CE long than I, that should be expected. I think our biggest problem with what you seem to wish to do, is that you basically want to destroy the Genesian church so that you can create something close enough to that of the RL Catholic church. An I don't really understand your argument that nothing in the Genesian church is "catholic." Perhaps not considered "catholic" by today's standards, no but at different points in history many major tenants, such as burning heretics at the stake, were condoned and practice by the Catholic Church.

Of course IC your church's argument, that it is of the "true catholic practice and faith," is based on the idea that St. Patrick brought over the true/pure catholic faith and that it has since 432 AD remained unchanged, correct? However, Genesians IC can just as well argue that St. Patrick came from the Genesian Catholic church, as it believes itself to be the evolved form of the Catholic church from its earliest beginnings.

So depending on your point of view IC, this church can just as easily be argued as another off-shoot of the Genesian Catholic church as is the Colognian Catholic church.
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Rhadamanthus
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NRE
Oct 4 2009, 04:58 PM
The Genesian Church has based its Pope out of Catholic Europe's capital city of Genesis City. Though I cannot speak for CE, I have to believe this choice was because Rome wasn't on the map when he arrive here, therefore to have a capital on the map he had to choose a different city and picked the next best thing, Constantinople. However, though he may not live in Rome, the Genesian Pope has always held the title Bishop of Rome. The Pope crowned by Leb is no exception. So yes there is a Bishop of Rome as far as the Genesians see it.
The Genesian Church the Genesian Pope were always based out of Rome. CE said this time and time again - the Genesian Pope is the Bishop of Rome, and derives his religious authority as Pope from this honor. He was resident in Genesis City in his capacity as Emperor of Catholic Europe, because Genesis City was the secular capital of Catholic Europe.
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Rhadamanthus
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Telosan
Oct 4 2009, 01:57 PM
I'm under the impression that Sed's goal with this church is to offset the contant rivalry of Genesian and Colongian churches. Orthodox is just a shadow that doesn't do much in comparison, while Judaism and Islam are almost non-existant.
The Orthodox Church is currently one of the most active and powerful religions in the world and the only other church the Genesians currently take seriously.
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Ulgania
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Rhadamanthus
Oct 4 2009, 06:42 PM
Telosan
Oct 4 2009, 01:57 PM
I'm under the impression that Sed's goal with this church is to offset the contant rivalry of Genesian and Colongian churches. Orthodox is just a shadow that doesn't do much in comparison, while Judaism and Islam are almost non-existant.
The Orthodox Church is currently one of the most active and powerful religions in the world and the only other church the Genesians currently take seriously.
But it doesn't get the same attention. Numbers and power-per-nation is one thing, but Genesianism is the only religion that we've put the manpower into making a global force
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:o Holy shit, we could write a history book just alone on religion for NationStates.
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NRE
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Rhadamanthus
Oct 4 2009, 06:40 PM
NRE
Oct 4 2009, 04:58 PM
The Genesian Church has based its Pope out of Catholic Europe's capital city of Genesis City. Though I cannot speak for CE, I have to believe this choice was because Rome wasn't on the map when he arrive here, therefore to have a capital on the map he had to choose a different city and picked the next best thing, Constantinople. However, though he may not live in Rome, the Genesian Pope has always held the title Bishop of Rome. The Pope crowned by Leb is no exception. So yes there is a Bishop of Rome as far as the Genesians see it.
The Genesian Church the Genesian Pope were always based out of Rome. CE said this time and time again - the Genesian Pope is the Bishop of Rome, and derives his religious authority as Pope from this honor. He was resident in Genesis City in his capacity as Emperor of Catholic Europe, because Genesis City was the secular capital of Catholic Europe.
I stand corrected ^^ As I said, I'm not the best source for information such as this.

An actually during Orthodoxy has been pretty active, at least through RD for a while. The first war of succession should be testament to the power of Orthodoxy and how it was perceived as a threat to the Genesian Catholics.
Edited by NRE, Oct 4 2009, 09:21 PM.
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Telosan
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Ulgania
Oct 4 2009, 07:20 PM
Rhadamanthus
Oct 4 2009, 06:42 PM
Telosan
Oct 4 2009, 01:57 PM
I'm under the impression that Sed's goal with this church is to offset the contant rivalry of Genesian and Colongian churches. Orthodox is just a shadow that doesn't do much in comparison, while Judaism and Islam are almost non-existant.
The Orthodox Church is currently one of the most active and powerful religions in the world and the only other church the Genesians currently take seriously.
But it doesn't get the same attention. Numbers and power-per-nation is one thing, but Genesianism is the only religion that we've put the manpower into making a global force
This is what I meant.

I actually didn't know RD's nation was Orthodox until Tou made a religion map a few months back. Even then, I never saw it mentioned IC until RD requested IC permission to promote Orthodox within Venetian borders, hence the somewhat large Orthodox population I have.
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Sedulius
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Yeah. RD is the leader of Orthodoxy on the forum.

Sedulion was an Orthodox nation, and it was ultimately absorbed into the Empire. Edessa is meant to be a continuity of my operations in the region, and it is also Orthodox in majority.
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