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| Realization | |
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| Topic Started: Sep 19 2009, 02:29 PM (815 Views) | |
| Deleted User | Sep 19 2009, 02:29 PM Post #1 |
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Deleted User
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I just realized something horrible. No matter how long as new member, such as me, will never be able to oppose any of the other longer time members, since the population continues to grow at the same rate. Even if i waited 10 years, most of you will be 4 or 5 years stronger and 10 to15 billions people stronger than I or a lesser person. Its pretty depressing, that I'm only going to have real opposition or wars with people who joined later than me. :( |
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| Ulgania | Sep 19 2009, 02:39 PM Post #2 |
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A better Zarathustra has never rode a horse
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This is why we new guys build alliances, and undermine the authority of the bigger guys by making them all fight each other to a standstill. It's worked for me so far ^^ |
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| Quaon | Sep 19 2009, 02:41 PM Post #3 |
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A Prince Amoung Men-Shoot First and Ask Questions Later
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False. Let's suppose for the sake of argument that population advances at 100 million per month. Date 0 is the day you joined. On date 0, you have a population of one million, and Quaon has a population of 1 billion. My population is 1,000 times greater than yours. One month later. You: 100 million, me 1.1 billion. I am now eleven times bigger than you. 200 million, 1.2 billion. I am now six times bigger than you. 300 million, 1.3 billion. I am now 4 and 1/3 times bigger than you. 400 million, 1.4 billion. I am now 3.5 times bigger than you. 500 million, 1.5 billion. I am now 3 times bigger than you. ... 1 billion, 2 billion. I am now 2 times bigger than you. ... 2 billion, 3 billion. I am now 1 and a half times bigger than you. 3 billion, 4 billion. I am now 1 and a quarter times bigger than you. In time, the difference becomes insignificant. |
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| Deleted User | Sep 19 2009, 02:44 PM Post #4 |
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Deleted User
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Ok, lets look at someone like TC with 12 billion. Everyone gains 100 million a month: 100 million, 12.1 billion 200 million, 12.2 billion 1 billion, 13 billion So no matter what, I will always be down by 12 billion |
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| Deleted User | Sep 19 2009, 02:45 PM Post #5 |
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Deleted User
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| Union | Sep 19 2009, 02:58 PM Post #6 |
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Pyrenees Republic
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It is true. The system in place favors old players, as it is an absolute system. The relative difference between players in meaningless. However, since most wars here are roleplayed and the outcome decided long off in the past before doing anything, it does not really matter. I have been working on an alternative system for players who would rather have the outcome be unknown, and actually war on a map with positions and units. Of course, this would be reserved for players who want to do it, and agree to do it, and could not be forced. |
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| Quaon | Sep 19 2009, 02:58 PM Post #7 |
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A Prince Amoung Men-Shoot First and Ask Questions Later
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Doesn't matter. What matters is the ratio between your populations. |
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| Union | Sep 19 2009, 03:00 PM Post #8 |
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Pyrenees Republic
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No it doesn't, Q. Our system gives X per billion. If you're at 3 billion, you have 3X, while a person at 2 billion will only ever have 2X. Since you both will grow at the same rate, you will always be ahead. Even if its 10 billion to 9 billion, its still 10X to 9X. |
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| Deleted User | Sep 19 2009, 03:02 PM Post #9 |
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Deleted User
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or if its 1 billion to 10 billion always 1X to 10X |
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| Ulgania | Sep 19 2009, 03:03 PM Post #10 |
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A better Zarathustra has never rode a horse
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Q, that still leaves, and always will leave us newer guys at an extreme disadvantage. Since NS has been around for as long as it has it's immensly difficult, even for me, to get an edge anywhere in this game without heavy hitters on my side (note my alliance with RD at the moment), whereas the higher populations can do what they wish to in their sphere of influence, or in the French case in their interest with little to stop them until another formidable foe comes along. If they so wished to, the Kasniyans/Romans/French/almost anyone could trounce Ulgania/Terrel Fen/Chilsherdia without breaking a sweat. It took a lot of OOC talk to keep from being swept aside by the Dominion. Edited by Ulgania, Sep 19 2009, 03:04 PM.
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| Rhadamanthus | Sep 19 2009, 03:07 PM Post #11 |
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Legitimist
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The absolute advantage stays constant but the relative advantage decreases. Theoretically, over time the advantage's importance relative to the absolute population sizes will tend towards triviality. But the time it would take for that to occur is quite long. To put this into perspective, a country like Paradise still has extremely significant advantage over me. And I have been here for quite a while. But there is a difference. When I first got here, Paradise could have swatted me away like a bug. Now I would put up such a huge fight that would make any victory by Paradise Pyrrhic at best. |
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| Ulgania | Sep 19 2009, 03:12 PM Post #12 |
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A better Zarathustra has never rode a horse
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Just remember that the point that Atticus is making that the absolute advantage these days so outweighs the relative advantage that it's hardly worth considering in a fight now or in the future. Your example with Paradise is fitting, but several years from now Atticus would still be swatted by a fly. Sure, he'd be an extremely muscly fly, but the fight would be far from having the diminished returns a fight between yourself and Paradise would have. |
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| Rhadamanthus | Sep 19 2009, 03:14 PM Post #13 |
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Legitimist
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Yes, the magnitude of the problem grows over time. |
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| Union | Sep 19 2009, 03:15 PM Post #14 |
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Pyrenees Republic
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*coughs slightly* |
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| Rhadamanthus | Sep 19 2009, 03:21 PM Post #15 |
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Legitimist
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Actually that is a pretty interesting idea ^^ |
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| Union | Sep 19 2009, 03:25 PM Post #16 |
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Pyrenees Republic
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You know it baby. |
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| Deleted User | Sep 19 2009, 03:30 PM Post #17 |
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Deleted User
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This still presents the same problem, it depend on how long you have been on the forum, it would stop super-noobs, but then again it won't solve the problem at hand. |
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| Rhadamanthus | Sep 19 2009, 03:37 PM Post #18 |
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Legitimist
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Its logarithmic while the current system is a linear progression. Did you miss that? |
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| Union | Sep 19 2009, 03:37 PM Post #19 |
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Pyrenees Republic
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It is logarithmic, A.
Edited by Union, Sep 19 2009, 03:38 PM.
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| Deleted User | Sep 19 2009, 03:58 PM Post #20 |
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Deleted User
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yes i did, i didn't see the part where it talks about the numbers flattening out. and I'm not sure what logarithmic is. |
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| Kasnyia | Sep 19 2009, 04:05 PM Post #21 |
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Chairman of the Bank
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War RPs for me is all about the story, which is why Ulgania wasn't wiped from the map during the Dominion invasion of Africa, since it'd make for a pretty boring read. Wars that have unknown outcomes are fine, so long as thats what both sides want to do, but the same effect can come from just winging it as well, which sometimes happens. The inherent lack of balance in the system is the reason why I never formally calculated Kasnyia's military. So long as players can agree what each side wants, it doesn't matter how many tanks or fighters you have. As to the original post, just make alliances and friends with some of the bigger states. Though not Kasnyia, since my nation is feeling the xenophobia at the moment. |
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| Sedulius | Sep 19 2009, 06:15 PM Post #22 |
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Field Marshal
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After looking it over, I think I really like Huesca's system. Not only would it somewhat balance things out (5 year players are 3 times stronger than a 1 year player, and that's reasonable), but it would also add a degree of realism when it comes to population. There are flaws, sure, but we should attempt to address those flaws to make a better over all system. Those flaws have to do with economy, and with people who perhaps have been listed on the forum a while, but are barely active. Then again, the latter perhaps isn't a big problem. But I suppose most importantly it has to be somehow linked to NS. Personally, I think Atticus brings up a good point. I've been on here for a year and a half now, and I still feel like an IC dwarf. Ireland has great influence and all, but I wish I could at least hold my own against other veterans rather than having to rely on alliances. I wish I could launch an offensive war against someone who isn't new, rather than always being on the defensive. IRL, I'm one who usually goes on the offense, but IC I'm forced to go defensive because of the system. |
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| Ulgania | Sep 19 2009, 06:46 PM Post #23 |
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A better Zarathustra has never rode a horse
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I could dig it as well. Then I might be active outside of Africa |
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| Deleted User | Sep 19 2009, 06:51 PM Post #24 |
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Deleted User
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the only problem is how are we going to relate anything to NS? If we use this system, then what use do we have for NS? |
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| Union | Sep 19 2009, 07:05 PM Post #25 |
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Pyrenees Republic
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None. Think of it. No more worries about who is regional delegate or founder. No more pressing yes on every issue to make us get 99% defense spending. Beauty. I was thinking that in addition of using the points for military equipment, you could instead purchase, for 100 IC, a level of economic development, ranked 1-20 (where 20 would be lichtenstein or soemthing). |
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