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Oh come on England, seriously!; Some fun news articles
Topic Started: Sep 9 2009, 08:42 PM (753 Views)
Tristan da Cunha
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Science and Industry
Nag Ehgoeg
 
If you had a little more racial harmony then I think your murder rate would be lower.


Your thesis would make sense if black violence were committed against non-blacks. But in reality most, the vast majority of, black violence is committed against other black people, and do not cross racial lines. So really it has nothing to do with issues of inter-racial harmony.

America is like two (or three) separate countries - White America, Black America, and Hispanic America. They mostly mind their own business and segregate themselves from each other.

Nag Ehgoeg
 
And even if you discount your black murderers you still have a much higher murder rate than European nations.


I don't know about that. American crime statistics are often confounded because data for Hispanics is often confounded with data for Whites.

Living in an all-white or mostly-white neighborhood in the US (regardless of socioeconomic class) is about as safe as living in an all-white or mostly-white neighborhood in Europe.

The murder rate in a suburban or working class white neighborhood is NOT 5.6 per 100,000. It's much lower.

The murder rate in an inner city black neighborhood is NOT 5.6 per 100,000. It's much, much higher.

In fact I would say lower-class white people in the US are better behaved than lower-class white people in Europe. That's because, consciously or subconsciously, lower-class white people in the US are always striving to differentiate themselves from the more criminal elements in the black community, so they use the black community to feel better about themselves racially. The psychological and racial dynamics in the US are quite complex; much more complex than the anti-gun propaganda presented in the European media.
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Rhadamanthus
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Tristan da Cunha
Sep 14 2009, 04:27 PM
America is like two (or three) separate countries - White America, Black America, and Hispanic America. They mostly mind their own business and segregate themselves from each other.
What about Asiatic breeds (like you and I)? Where do we fit in this scheme?
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Tristan da Cunha
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Hmm I don't have a model of Asians yet. I'll have to study this issue more.
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Nag Ehgoeg
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The Devil's Advocate

Tristan da Cunha
Sep 14 2009, 04:27 PM
Nag Ehgoeg
 
If you had a little more racial harmony then I think your murder rate would be lower.


Your thesis would make sense if black violence were committed against non-blacks.
Oh gall. My mistake there - dyslexia'd intra- for inter-. You're right.

Quote:
 
Nag Ehgoeg
 
And even if you discount your black murderers you still have a much higher murder rate than European nations.


I don't know about that. American crime statistics are often confounded because data for Hispanics is often confounded with data for Whites.

Living in an all-white or mostly-white neighborhood in the US (regardless of socioeconomic class) is about as safe as living in an all-white or mostly-white neighborhood in Europe.
I'd love to see statistics on that.

I see (United States Department of Justice, 2004) that 51% of murders are committed by Whites (46.9% by Blacks and 2.1% by "Other" - which I think fits with US population demographics if we take Hispanics as "Other" (though I admit that I'd have thought that Hispanic gang violence would have pushed this figure higher)). Of that 51% of White murders, 86% were White on White. Which would put your White on White murder rate at 2.3 per 100,000. Western/Central Europe murder rate is 1.5 per 100,000 (and that's including the minorities).
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Rhadamanthus
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Nag Ehgoeg
Sep 14 2009, 05:09 PM
I see (United States Department of Justice, 2004) that 51% of murders are committed by Whites (46.9% by Blacks and 2.1% by "Other" - which I think fits with US population demographics if we take Hispanics as "Other" (though I admit that I'd have thought that Hispanic gang violence would have pushed this figure higher)). Of that 51% of White murders, 86% were White on White. Which would put your White on White murder rate at 2.3 per 100,000. Western/Central Europe murder rate is 1.5 per 100,000 (and that's including the minorities).
Hispanics are sometimes "Other" and other times "White" from what I have seen (sorry, I don't have a reference on hand). Hispanic is an odd category because in the American census, the Hispanic ethnicity question is separate from the question of Race, so a person can mark any race and also mark themselves Hispanic. The result, from my reading, is that Hispanics mark a range of things, and also that law enforcement does not have a consistent way of identifying Hispanics.

That is both good and bad. It is good in the sense that it probably reflects to some degree the actual diversity of Hispanic-Americans, but it is bad in the sense that it confounds this sort of discussion quite a bit.
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New Harumf
Sep 14 2009, 09:29 AM
There are several Schuetzenfests, in Wisconsin, and other mid-western states. One I attended was in Altemont, Illinois. Very good time! I got very, very drunk! Very drunk.
any in California? :(
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New Harumf
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Bloodthirsty Unicorn
Atticus
Sep 14 2009, 08:43 PM
New Harumf
Sep 14 2009, 09:29 AM
There are several Schuetzenfests, in Wisconsin, and other mid-western states. One I attended was in Altemont, Illinois. Very good time! I got very, very drunk! Very drunk.
any in California? :(
You will find them where ever there is a large concentration of German/Swiss/Austrian imigrants. There's a big one in Texas, but considering how anti-gun California tends to be . . . I doubt it.
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New Harumf
Sep 15 2009, 08:31 AM
Atticus
Sep 14 2009, 08:43 PM
New Harumf
Sep 14 2009, 09:29 AM
There are several Schuetzenfests, in Wisconsin, and other mid-western states. One I attended was in Altemont, Illinois. Very good time! I got very, very drunk! Very drunk.
any in California? :(
You will find them where ever there is a large concentration of German/Swiss/Austrian imigrants. There's a big one in Texas, but considering how anti-gun California tends to be . . . I doubt it.
:dry: typical California
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Toussaint
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Major
We have a bustling Danish minority in Solvang.

They're just as good. ^^
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Toussaint
Sep 15 2009, 11:18 PM
We have a bustling Danish minority in Solvang.

They're just as good. ^^
I've never been there before, is it any good?
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Abnar
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Mirror, mirror on the wall, who's the lurkiest of them all?
http://www.boingboing.net/2009/09/15/bbc-wants-to-put-drm.html

England is scaring the crap out of me lately.
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Nag Ehgoeg
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Abnar
Sep 16 2009, 11:49 AM
http://www.boingboing.net/2009/09/15/bbc-wants-to-put-drm.html

England is scaring the crap out of me lately.
Give it forty years. Then you'll see really scary stuff.

Sidenote: I'll be taking part in my annual walk around London on November 5th. The walk that goes past parliament. The walk I do in fancy dress. This year I think I'll go as V... again. I wonder how many other people will come along.
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New Harumf
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Bloodthirsty Unicorn
Nag Ehgoeg
Sep 17 2009, 06:31 AM
Abnar
Sep 16 2009, 11:49 AM
http://www.boingboing.net/2009/09/15/bbc-wants-to-put-drm.html

England is scaring the crap out of me lately.
Give it forty years. Then you'll see really scary stuff.

Sidenote: I'll be taking part in my annual walk around London on November 5th. The walk that goes past parliament. The walk I do in fancy dress. This year I think I'll go as V... again. I wonder how many other people will come along.
Is this some new tradition to substitute for burning an effigy??

I - like it.
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Sedulius
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Nag Ehgoeg
Sep 17 2009, 06:31 AM
Abnar
Sep 16 2009, 11:49 AM
http://www.boingboing.net/2009/09/15/bbc-wants-to-put-drm.html

England is scaring the crap out of me lately.
Give it forty years. Then you'll see really scary stuff.

Sidenote: I'll be taking part in my annual walk around London on November 5th. The walk that goes past parliament. The walk I do in fancy dress. This year I think I'll go as V... again. I wonder how many other people will come along.
Still thinking we need to reform the British government too?
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Abnar
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Mirror, mirror on the wall, who's the lurkiest of them all?
Nag Ehgoeg
Sep 12 2009, 09:43 AM
Abnar
Sep 10 2009, 09:09 AM
How many stabbings are there in the UK per capita, as opposed to gun crimes in the US per capita? I'm not expecting a certain outcome, it'd just be interesting to see.
I don't have stabbing figures but we can compare violent crime rates:

UK (2009): 2,034 per 100,000
USA (2007): 467 per 100,000

And homicide:

USA (2007): 5.6 per 100,000
UK (2009): 1.49 per 100,000

****

The UK has the worst violent crime rate in Europe. We beat out South Africa. But people don't die. Why? Because our violent crimes aren't done with guns.

If guns were legalised in the UK (as they should be), violent crime would plummet as the two-bit cowardly thugs that plague us realise their lives are on the line. But our murder rate would shoot up.

Government control isn't helping crime in the UK, but it's saving lives. Make of that what you will.
Just went back and noticed you had posted this. Very interesting, thanks, Nag.

EDIT: Huh, the crime rate in the UK is roughly 5 times as high as the US, and the homicide rate in the US is about 5 times as high as the UK. Looks like it's an almost exact trade off. Very weird.
Edited by Abnar, Sep 17 2009, 07:08 PM.
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Nag Ehgoeg
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The Devil's Advocate

New Harumf
Sep 17 2009, 08:33 AM
Nag Ehgoeg
Sep 17 2009, 06:31 AM
Abnar
Sep 16 2009, 11:49 AM
http://www.boingboing.net/2009/09/15/bbc-wants-to-put-drm.html

England is scaring the crap out of me lately.
Give it forty years. Then you'll see really scary stuff.

Sidenote: I'll be taking part in my annual walk around London on November 5th. The walk that goes past parliament. The walk I do in fancy dress. This year I think I'll go as V... again. I wonder how many other people will come along.
Is this some new tradition to substitute for burning an effigy??

I - like it.
Burning an effigy of Guy Fawkes is supporting the government and slightly anti-Catholic. I do not support the government (mostly because we didn't have the chance to elect our Prime Minister (this is probably the greatest flaw in any political system since Bush-Gore) and because of the dumb-ass policies this government has enacted).

Reminding the government not-so-subtly that we have rights and we want to exercise those rights reminds them that we're willing to stand up for and fight for those rights. Much nobler, even if it goes against tradition.

****

Sed, the British government is pretty much fine. The British people need reforming and that's just not going to happen. We already have a system that can give adequate representation of the people - but people choose to vote for the big parties rather than the parties that represent their views. The only thing the British government needs to be perfect is decentralisation - make local government a bit more powerful and national government weaker.

The interplay with the Commons-Lords-Queen-EU is pretty much perfect. I just wish the Queen would use the powers she has (basically the only things the Queen can do is seize land and call elections early - we really need an election).

As a general FYI: in the South East (where I live) a scheme called Participatory Budgeting is coming in place. People assemble and give proposals on what they want public money spent on. The people then vote and the (local) government spends the money on what the local people have said they wanted. It's the government listening to the people and giving them what they need. I plan on calling for a tax rebate.
Edited by Nag Ehgoeg, Sep 21 2009, 08:04 AM.
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oh man, a revolution in England would be fun.
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flumes
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CLEVELAND ROCKS!
Atticus
Sep 21 2009, 06:45 PM
oh man, a revolution in England would be fun.
I'll call your English revolution and raise you a succession in Texas. ^^

Although a revolution based on knife fights would be interesting. :lol:
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Rhadamanthus
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Atticus
Sep 21 2009, 06:45 PM
oh man, a revolution in England would be fun.
It would? Really?

Which part would be fun?

Would it be the widespread violence, the death of many people on either side, and endangering everyone present and their loved ones?
Would it be the dangerous idealogues and extremists trying to outsmart or outfight each other and take power in order to create the new order on purely their ideals?
Or would it be the part where the hope and optimism for reform slowly dies as the new regime stagnates into something likely worse than what you had to begin with?

Doesn't sound like much fun to me. Nag's view seems more sensible to me.
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Quaon
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A Prince Amoung Men-Shoot First and Ask Questions Later
Rhadamanthus
Sep 21 2009, 07:12 PM
Atticus
Sep 21 2009, 06:45 PM
oh man, a revolution in England would be fun.
It would? Really?

Which part would be fun?

Would it be the widespread violence, the death of many people on either side, and endangering everyone present and their loved ones?
Would it be the dangerous idealogues and extremists trying to outsmart or outfight each other and take power in order to create the new order on purely their ideals?
Or would it be the part where the hope and optimism for reform slowly dies as the new regime stagnates into something likely worse than what you had to begin with?

Doesn't sound like much fun to me. Nag's view seems more sensible to me.
I applaud this post, RD.
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flumes
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CLEVELAND ROCKS!
Rhadamanthus
Sep 21 2009, 07:12 PM
Atticus
Sep 21 2009, 06:45 PM
oh man, a revolution in England would be fun.
It would? Really?

Which part would be fun?

Would it be the widespread violence, the death of many people on either side, and endangering everyone present and their loved ones?
Would it be the dangerous idealogues and extremists trying to outsmart or outfight each other and take power in order to create the new order on purely their ideals?
Or would it be the part where the hope and optimism for reform slowly dies as the new regime stagnates into something likely worse than what you had to begin with?

Doesn't sound like much fun to me. Nag's view seems more sensible to me.
All of the above? :evil:

...

Sorry, I'm just in that mood today.
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Rhadamanthus
Sep 21 2009, 07:12 PM
Atticus
Sep 21 2009, 06:45 PM
oh man, a revolution in England would be fun.
It would? Really?

Which part would be fun?

Would it be the widespread violence, the death of many people on either side, and endangering everyone present and their loved ones?
Would it be the dangerous idealogues and extremists trying to outsmart or outfight each other and take power in order to create the new order on purely their ideals?
Or would it be the part where the hope and optimism for reform slowly dies as the new regime stagnates into something likely worse than what you had to begin with?

Doesn't sound like much fun to me. Nag's view seems more sensible to me.
it was a joke, calm down.

No need to make a hissy fit over nothing.

:rofl: on Flumes's post.
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Ulgania
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A better Zarathustra has never rode a horse
There would be no revolution. The CCTV system? They can see into your souls and thoughts.
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Rhadamanthus
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Atticus
Sep 21 2009, 10:44 PM
Rhadamanthus
Sep 21 2009, 07:12 PM
Atticus
Sep 21 2009, 06:45 PM
oh man, a revolution in England would be fun.
It would? Really?

Which part would be fun?

Would it be the widespread violence, the death of many people on either side, and endangering everyone present and their loved ones?
Would it be the dangerous idealogues and extremists trying to outsmart or outfight each other and take power in order to create the new order on purely their ideals?
Or would it be the part where the hope and optimism for reform slowly dies as the new regime stagnates into something likely worse than what you had to begin with?

Doesn't sound like much fun to me. Nag's view seems more sensible to me.
it was a joke, calm down.

No need to make a hissy fit over nothing.

:rofl: on Flumes's post.
All I'm hearing from you is

Posted Image


:P
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Nag Ehgoeg
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The Devil's Advocate

Atticus
Sep 21 2009, 06:45 PM
oh man, a revolution in England would be fun.
We have more CCTV cameras than any other nation. The average Brit gets captured on camera 300 times a day.
We don't have guns. The police and military do. As do the criminal groups.

Addressing RD:

Widespread death? Really? Who's going to come and fight the civilians in their homes? The factions that want to fight each other, will fight each other. The average Joe in his home needs to huddle down with his Neighbourhood Watch and family, grab a knife and stab up anyone foolish enough to come after him. Would criminals rob from the average man? Why would they pick over bones when a mall is an all you eat buffet?

Extremists fighting each other sounds cool to me. The more they kill themselves the better as far as I'm concerned.

New regime worse than the old. Probably. That doesn't sound fun.

Yeah, doesn't sound fun at all.
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