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Socialism
Topic Started: Sep 6 2009, 01:40 PM (580 Views)
Rhadamanthus
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Legitimist

Abnar
Sep 8 2009, 09:59 PM
One heated debate is enogh for me at the moment, I'm not touching this topic except to say that the vast majority of Americans have serious misconceptions about the actual definition of socialism.
Most Americans rail against socialism while simultaneously defending whatever socialist programs they are already beneficiaries of.
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Sedulius
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Field Marshal
Just took an energy shot. Continuing to work on paper.

EDIT: Right now I'm just BSing for the rough draft. This is a WIP, and the current version will be torn limb from limb and grown a few sizes by the time I'm done with it.

Spoiler: click to toggle


Say what you will, but keep in mind this is mostly BS right now, and it is quite incomplete. The final product will be much refined. Suggestions on what to say are much appreciated. I'm certain I could write a book on this given time. Honestly, I think I'll extend the pitiful end product into a full blown research paper. Easy enough.

You may see I've taken some of what you guys have said. I am considering sourcing the forum. :lol:

For right now, I need to take a bit of a break.
Edited by Sedulius, Sep 9 2009, 02:40 AM.
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New Harumf
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Bloodthirsty Unicorn
Sedulius
Sep 9 2009, 01:26 AM
Just took an energy shot. Continuing to work on paper.

EDIT: Right now I'm just BSing for the rough draft. This is a WIP, and the current version will be torn limb from limb and grown a few sizes by the time I'm done with it.

Spoiler: click to toggle


Say what you will, but keep in mind this is mostly BS right now, and it is quite incomplete. The final product will be much refined. Suggestions on what to say are much appreciated. I'm certain I could write a book on this given time. Honestly, I think I'll extend the pitiful end product into a full blown research paper. Easy enough.

You may see I've taken some of what you guys have said. I am considering sourcing the forum. :lol:

For right now, I need to take a bit of a break.
I would strongly suggest sourcing anything that is not your own words :angry:
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Tristan da Cunha
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On what basis do you make the claim that Sweden is more "true socialist" than the USSR?

You use the definition of socialism as "any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods (Merriam-Webster)."

Doesn't the USSR fit the definition of socialism you use in your essay?

Then you say "the Soviet Union ... is not truly socialist"

I don't get.
Edited by Tristan da Cunha, Sep 9 2009, 01:15 PM.
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Paradise
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Resident bureaucrat

Sedulius
Sep 9 2009, 01:26 AM
Just took an energy shot. Continuing to work on paper.

EDIT: Right now I'm just BSing for the rough draft. This is a WIP, and the current version will be torn limb from limb and grown a few sizes by the time I'm done with it.

Spoiler: click to toggle


Say what you will, but keep in mind this is mostly BS right now, and it is quite incomplete. The final product will be much refined. Suggestions on what to say are much appreciated. I'm certain I could write a book on this given time. Honestly, I think I'll extend the pitiful end product into a full blown research paper. Easy enough.

You may see I've taken some of what you guys have said. I am considering sourcing the forum. :lol:

For right now, I need to take a bit of a break.
Communism is the ideology developed by Marx and Engels. Socialism is the practical economic system that comes from communism, it can take various forms depending on the original developer: stalinism, leninism, maoism.

Sweden is certainly not socialist, it is social democrat. It is a capitalist system with big public sector.
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East Anarx
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Anarchitect

"Socialism" and "Capitalism" are simply bad terms. Here's Roderick Long pwning all over these anti-concepts:

Roderick Long
 
While I've said I don't want to dwell on terminological issues, I can't resist making a point about "capitalism" and "socialism." Rand used to identify certain terms and ideas as "anti-concepts," that is, terms that actually function to obscure our understanding rather than facilitating it, making it harder for us to grasp other, legitimate concepts; one important category of anti-concepts is what Rand called the "package deal," referring to any term whose meaning conceals an implicit presupposition that certain things go together that in actuality do not. Although Rand would not agree with the following examples, I've become convinced that the terms "capitalism" and "socialism" are really anti-concepts of the package-deal variety.
Libertarians sometimes debate whether the "real" or "authentic" meaning of a term like "capitalism" is (a) the free market, or (b) government favoritism toward business, or (c) the separation between labor and ownership, an arrangement neutral between the other two; Austrians tend to use the term in the first sense; individualist anarchists in the Tuckerite tradition tend to use it in the second or third. But in ordinary usage, I fear, it actually stands for an amalgamation of incompatible meanings.

Suppose I were to invent a new word, "zaxlebax," and define it as "a metallic sphere, like the Washington Monument." That's the definition — "a metallic sphere, like the Washington Monument. " In short, I build my ill-chosen example into the definition. Now some linguistic subgroup might start using the term "zaxlebax" as though it just meant "metallic sphere," or as though it just meant "something of the same kind as the Washington Monument." And that's fine. But my definition incorporates both, and thus conceals the false assumption that the Washington Monument is a metallic sphere; any attempt to use the term "zaxlebax," meaning what I mean by it, involves the user in this false assumption. That's what Rand means by a package-deal term.

Now I think the word "capitalism," if used with the meaning most people give it, is a package-deal term. By "capitalism" most people mean neither the free market simpliciter nor the prevailing neomercantilist system simpliciter. Rather, what most people mean by "capitalism" is this free-market system that currently prevails in the western world. In short, the term "capitalism" as generally used conceals an assumption that the prevailing system is a free market. And since the prevailing system is in fact one of government favoritism toward business, the ordinary use of the term carries with it the assumption that the free market is government favoritism toward business.

And similar considerations apply to the term "socialism." Most people don't mean by "socialism" anything so precise as state ownership of the means of production; instead they really mean something more like "the opposite of capitalism." Then if "capitalism" is a package-deal term, so is "socialism" — it conveys opposition to the free market, and opposition to neomercantilism, as though these were one and the same.

And that, I suggest, is the function of these terms: to blur the distinction between the free market and neomercantilism. Such confusion prevails because it works to the advantage of the statist establishment: those who want to defend the free market can more easily be seduced into defending neomercantilism, and those who want to combat neomercantilism can more easily be seduced into combating the free market. Either way, the state remains secure.
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Tristan da Cunha
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Socialism isn't that bad of a term. It's only bad when people misuse it.

It's a highly useful and clarifying term when precisely used, such as by Ludwig von Mises in his treatise "Socialism".
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Rhadamanthus
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Legitimist

Terms are only as good as the people who define them. As long as you define any contested terms when engaging in argumentation, it doesn't matter what terms you are using.
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Sedulius
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Thanks for the feedback guys. I'll post the full work when finished.

NH, save for definitions, I pulled all of that out of my ass. I just needed a rough draft to hand in. You have my word the final product will be greatly sourced in MLA format.
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Aelius
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Norman Warlord
Bah! Fuck formatting. I demand e.e. cummings!
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Sedulius
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Lansdallius
Sep 9 2009, 10:25 PM
Bah! Fuck formatting. I demand e.e. cummings!
:huh:

Emoticon only posts are wrong.
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Tristan da Cunha
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Lansdallius
Sep 9 2009, 10:25 PM
Bah! Fuck formatting. I demand e.e. cummings!
You mean e e cummings
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Aelius
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Norman Warlord
ah i see

touche
:gnarkgnark:
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Quaon
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A Prince Amoung Men-Shoot First and Ask Questions Later
e e cummings
was a dude
who didnt use
punctuation
and he
wrote
poetry
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Aelius
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Norman Warlord
exactly
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New Harumf
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Bloodthirsty Unicorn
e e cummings was a poet. As such he could use any convention he wanted.

Sed is being an essayist, and therefore must follow the MLA, APA, Chicago or some other style to be legit.

ifhe was a green novelist Yes writing in a green Yes environment on a grean of Yes then he could write like James Joyce that under the pillars of heaven did lay Yes and have his honey and soul consumed by one so young as a quean may do ifhe was . . . . .

Let us not forget, style sets the tone of all writing.
Edited by New Harumf, Sep 10 2009, 07:42 AM.
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Sedulius
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Energy shot. Continuing paper. By God, I need to stop doing this...

Sometimes it seems this is the only way I get things written though.
Edited by Sedulius, Sep 23 2009, 03:53 AM.
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Sedulius
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Done with the basic paper. Need to trump up some sources. You guys were a great help in showing me the flaws of the initial argument.

I hate this paper, but I hate anything I write in haste. It makes a good point towards the end. I have to have this in by midnight SEP 23, so I have time to refine it.

Anywho, here it is.

Spoiler: click to toggle


To NH, a works cited page will be made, and things will be quoted. Please do consider, the bulk of this material is taken from nowhere but my own knowledge and thoughts, some inspired by this forum. Problem is, I'm not an established expert, hence I must have sources. I know, I'm a horrible example of a student. I'll be sure to start early on the next papers.

All criticisms are welcome.
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Tristan da Cunha
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"In Sweden, healthcare and education, including higher education, are free"

This isn't true, as income tax rates for all levels of society amount to about 50% in Sweden to pay for healthcare and education. Sales taxes are also very high. The Swedish government also engages in vast amounts of deficit spending and inflation. ((Deficits and inflation- the two proximal factors that killed the Soviet Union))

Nothing is free; everything has a cost.

I have quibbles with the imprecision and inadequate analysis presented throughout the entire essay and I find myself agreeing only with the final two sentences, but I'm mentally drained and unable to get into a discussion about this topic at the moment.
Edited by Tristan da Cunha, Sep 23 2009, 04:12 PM.
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East Anarx
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Anarchitect

I was hoping you wouldn't do your research on Hagbard Celine and realize he's a fictional character.
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Sedulius
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Esternarx
Sep 23 2009, 05:30 PM
I was hoping you wouldn't do your research on Hagbard Celine and realize he's a fictional character.
Haha, yeah I'm glad I looked into that one.
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Sedulius
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Tristan da Cunha
Sep 23 2009, 04:04 PM
"In Sweden, healthcare and education, including higher education, are free"

This isn't true, as income tax rates for all levels of society amount to about 50% in Sweden to pay for healthcare and education. Sales taxes are also very high. The Swedish government also engages in vast amounts of deficit spending and inflation. ((Deficits and inflation- the two proximal factors that killed the Soviet Union))

Nothing is free; everything has a cost.

I have quibbles with the imprecision and inadequate analysis presented throughout the entire essay and I find myself agreeing only with the final two sentences, but I'm mentally drained and unable to get into a discussion about this topic at the moment.
Yeah, I dislike this paper. It was completely BSed.

But we have a different outlook on free, I would say. The Swedes don't have to pay any money out of pocket for those things. It's taken care of for them. I'd rather have a 50% income tax and those services than be in the situation I'm in right now.
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Sedulius
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Holy Shit. I submitted it to turnitin.com and only 14% was similar to anything else. Shows I wrote unique material. Damn.

EDIT: That's only 4% when taking out quotes and sources.
Edited by Sedulius, Sep 23 2009, 07:05 PM.
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