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| The Catholic Question | |
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| Topic Started: Jul 9 2009, 09:12 PM (1,016 Views) | |
| Sedulius | Jul 16 2009, 12:54 AM Post #76 |
Field Marshal
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RD, I've PMed you, and it concerns all of this, not just your question. ----- To our friend, I was never made aware of this. From what I've been told, CE altered history. I can't exactly answer you straight with conflicting data. This needs to be cleared up and confirmed as one way or the other. ----- If you want to know why my Church should stay, I say this: The Genesian Church is an old-style Catholic Church, but its doctrines are usually different than that of the actual Catholic Church, whether now or in history. The Colognian Church is true to the modern day Church, but it isn't old style, which some people like. Neither have a Pope in Rome, or are called the Roman Catholic Church. The Old Church gives you the best of all worlds (for those who want it). It's old-style, it doesn't have made up doctrines, and it calls itself the Roman Catholic Church. It would have a Pope if it had Rome, but it doesn't, so it doesn't have a Pope. Really, it's all pretty simple. I'm giving players, old and new, a comfortable and familiar alternative. ----- Abnar, I'll consider allying with you. That's a dangerous move if I'm trying to capture the hearts and minds of the Catholic world, but I need all the allies I can get. Let's hope the community understands. |
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| New Harumf | Jul 16 2009, 08:49 AM Post #77 |
Bloodthirsty Unicorn
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See, that's the problem - by definition, doctrine is made-up by someone. It is NOT in the Gospels or letters of Paul, therefore it is either derived at through Arstotilian Logic (like the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception) or through Papal decree (such as the doctrine of the Trinity as defined by the non-Orthodox Catholic Church which doesn't make half the sense as the Orthodox doctrine regarding the Trinity). So, what you are attempting to say is your Irish Church's doctrine has not changed since Leo III? OK, fine, then it is FAR from an historic Catholic Church, and far from a modern Catholic Church. Plus you do NOT accept the "doctrine" of the sucsession of Popes, ergo your church is no different than Henry VIII's church, for which he AND England were excommunicated, and your church is "officially" Protestant because it exists "in protest" to main-stream Catholicism. You may claim to be the "Official" Catholic Church, but I really doubt you should expect anyone else to accept that claim. |
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| Sedulius | Jul 16 2009, 01:40 PM Post #78 |
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Field Marshal
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Your argument is flawed and fallacious, NH. You know very well when I say "not made up" I mean not a modification of the RL Church. Furthermore, I never specified it hasn't absolutely changed from Leo III, just that it's based on the doctrine at the time of Irish revival. It could potentially accept doctrines up to a certain point. I'm leaving it flexible. Obviously, it would have had to change in some way in organization, otherwise it wouldn't be as well organized as it was, would it? Even if it hasn't changed whatsoever from Pope Leo III, that would mean it is completely like the historical church under Leo III and the time of Irish revival. Your argument that it is not historical is thus fully flawed. Furthermore, that Church would have been undeniably Catholic, and by your logic the Orthodox Church would be Protestant, which obviously isn't true. Hence, your argument that my Church is Protestant is fully flawed. Also, you call the Genesian Church "mainstream" Catholicism. I wonder how true within the forum that claim really is? I wonder how many are actually opposed to it? I submit, NH, that you arguing for the sake of arguing. You are doing whatever you can to derail my Church. Which brings me to wondering why? In any case, this is inhibiting to RP, so I would request you stop and we simply continue in a civil matter, RPing how we normally would and seeing what happens. Let people who want to support whichever side they wish, rather than trying to coerce people into RPing one way or another. It would seem you are attempting to coerce me, and I do not take kindly to that. I have clearly stated what the Old Church: the old style Roman Catholic Church without made up doctrines. If people want to RP as that, let them. EDIT: Nothing personal, NH. I just want to get back to RPing. I've made my case, plain and simple. OOC, this really shouldn't be getting so much opposition. There's no good reason for it. IC, people should be able to give it all the opposition (or support) they want. I'm just asking for a fair fight. Edited by Sedulius, Jul 16 2009, 02:11 PM.
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| NRE | Jul 16 2009, 02:22 PM Post #79 |
Map Tsar and Southern Gentleman
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Its because its religion and like politics no one can agree :lol: I think the main problem is that no two people can agree on history, especially when it comes to how far we follow RL history and at what point it blurs into the history we've made here on the forums. For many of us Roman Catholicism began with CE and his Popes and only recently has been consider mainstreamly "Genesian" with the founding of the Colognian church as a way to differentiate between the two. Your IC argument that your church follows some original Catholic Church bothers some people because you don't consider it the Genesian Church, which the Genesians do because for them thats the only Roman Catholic Church to exist. I really wish NSwiki wasn't re-only again because I believe Catholic Europe had a detailing of his history and we could better come to some agreement but sadly I know that I for one, can't get it to come up. But most of the arguing now should just been done ICly in my personal opinion. You can create your church and oppose the Genesians and claim whatever you want and the Genesians can call it all false and heresy. We can wage wars and whatever else and continue to build good RPs. EDIT: Oh but I will have to disagree with you on the mainstream thing because given that CE has been the Roman Catholic Church for so long, most people (even if its only a minority in their country) have made Genesians the preferred Catholicism over Cologne or another sect they created themselves. Mostly, I would assume this is because its a better bet politically given that CE, especially within the last 5 RL years has been a strong military power and has obtain strong military powers as allies verses Cologne which for one, isn't an actually country at all and has changed hands a time or two since its founding. Thus if you wanted to make strong friends quick and what to be Roman Catholic, players choose CE and the Genesian Church. Edited by NRE, Jul 16 2009, 02:27 PM.
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| Sedulius | Jul 16 2009, 03:06 PM Post #80 |
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Field Marshal
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^ My thoughts exactly. However, in questioning the Genesian Church as being mainstream, I was merely pointing out that I don't think it really has so much support as some people might think. Certainly, as a newcomer I was entirely confused by it, and I know the majority of newcomers must be. I'm glad I started out Orthodox. But there's no telling how many people we may have actually lost simply because the religious situation of this forum is so confusing. I think a good amount of people would rather casually RP as Roman Catholic rather than RP as someone else's idea of a fictional Roman Catholic Church. I think most new people and even a few veterans would probably be included within those people. I've gotten a little angry when I see someone new come on here, having their nation listed as Roman Catholic, and then being told they can't be Roman Catholic, rather if they want to be something like Roman Catholic, they have to choose Genesian or Colognian. Now in my opinion, that isn't right. If the new player wants to be Roman Catholic, let him be Roman Catholic. Don't force or coerce him into your way, into your RP. That's clearly against rules. I'm giving people an alternative that will them simply RP as Roman Catholic, no strings attached. |
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| NRE | Jul 16 2009, 03:19 PM Post #81 |
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Map Tsar and Southern Gentleman
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Well your Roman Catholic :P We'll offer them our Roman Catholic Church for them too ^^ |
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| Sedulius | Jul 16 2009, 03:21 PM Post #82 |
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Field Marshal
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Sounds good to me. ;) |
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| NRE | Jul 16 2009, 03:40 PM Post #83 |
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Map Tsar and Southern Gentleman
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Huzzah let the race begin, and may the best Catholics win, burn the heretics at the stake, raise their churches to the ground, and forcibly convert their masses all the while propagandizing it as the only way to salvation! :lol: |
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| Sedulius | Jul 16 2009, 04:57 PM Post #84 |
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Field Marshal
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Ha, let that be the Genesian way of things. I have my own methods, though my allies and brothers-in-arms may do as they please. :D |
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| New Harumf | Jul 16 2009, 05:37 PM Post #85 |
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Bloodthirsty Unicorn
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Sed, I was commenting half in character, and half out. I sincerely doubt anyone can claim to be a better defender of the Faith than me, and that faith is the Church in Genesis City as crerated by CE. I do not want to see his five years of effort washed away by a relative newbie (i.e., you), so IC I will continue to defend the faith to the death, and OC will continue to push it as the True Church. Anything that comes along after it, and CLAIMS to be the REAL Catholic Church, IMHO, is God-Modding in the real sense of the word. I'm sorry you can't see yourself as the usurper here, but you are. |
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| Nag Ehgoeg | Jul 16 2009, 05:50 PM Post #86 |
The Devil's Advocate
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Roman Catholic only not following the current Roman Catholic doctrine, not having a Pope, not recognising the Bishop of Rome but instead following a doctrine loosely based on a historical Pope with modifications of your own thrown in to update it to modern day while being true to the spirit of Pope Leo's Church? Sure. Much less complicated this way. |
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| Sedulius | Jul 16 2009, 06:10 PM Post #87 |
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Field Marshal
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As I said, Nag, it's flexible. Not everyone in my Church necessarily has to follow my way to the letter. The Catholic Church is historically notorious for having factions. In other words, I'm not going to force people to do things my way, though I will mediate to keep relative cohesion. That said, I haven't modified my own Celtic Church to be modern. I will attempt to keep it as true to the Irish Church just after European Catholic revival as I can. NH, firstly, this is an OOC thread. Saying you were half in character is no excuse. Secondly, forcing and coercing people OOC to recognize the Genesian Church as the true Catholic Church is godmodding. I'm not forcing anyone to join my Church or to recognize it as the true Church. I'm just making a good argument, IC and OOC. I don't care what you see me as, it's up to the individual players to do as they wish. If they agree with me, they are allowed to do so. If they agree with you, they are allowed to do so. Let the forum do as it wishes. I am. It's obvious you're getting angry over this. I'd rather this thread not have to be closed, since there is more to discuss than this argument, so I request you keep your cool. Sorry if I'm being harsh, but I'm not going to tolerate dominating behavior. |
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| New Harumf | Jul 16 2009, 06:22 PM Post #88 |
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Bloodthirsty Unicorn
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I.m not angry. I just see you as trying to pull a Kas with the Catholic Church, that's all. |
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| Sedulius | Jul 16 2009, 06:26 PM Post #89 |
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Field Marshal
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NH, respectfully, that's how you make me feel with the Genesian Church. You have my word I won't pull a Kas (sorry Kas) with the Catholic Church. I just want to provide a simpler alternative for people. |
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| Nag Ehgoeg | Jul 16 2009, 06:45 PM Post #90 |
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The Devil's Advocate
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I just wanted to say that I didn't think NH was getting angry. The Genesian Church... is the Catholic Church. It was run by a (not very good) real life Catholic. It was strongly based on historical Catholic doctrine - though this doctrine was taken out of historical sequence. Several key changes were made to the faith - the Papal seat was moved to Rome, the Papal Bloodline was introduced - but these changes were made to keep in line with the nationstates game. Nag Ehgoeg is a nation of Turkic people run by a bloodline of mystic nomads who corrupted the Turkic way of life beyond recognition through encouraging immigration. Saudi Arabia is a military and economic powerhouse that dominates the world, ruled by Caliphate. The Native Americans crusade across the globe for native people everywhere. Our world is very much a caricature (at best) of the real world. The Catholic Church mimics this. Now I'm not saying that it wouldn't be fun to have a new church. I'm not saying it's a bad idea to want to get back to Catholic basics. What I am saying, however, is that the CCC is the new kid on the block. And I think that's the point everyone else has been laboured. Please, please, RP this new church. Sounds really fun. But it's fun because it's a new church. Not because it's "the real" catholic church. 'Cause it's not. |
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| Sedulius | Jul 16 2009, 07:42 PM Post #91 |
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Field Marshal
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Agreed, Nag. But for the record, I never meant to come off as saying the Old Church was "the real" Catholic Church. Rather, I like to think of it as a true Catholic Church, in other words, a Church that isn't corrupt and untrue to the word of God. I recognize my Church, the Colognian Church, the Orthodox Church, and some Protestant churches as what one could consider a true Church. The Genesian Church really stretches away from the message, which I think should be pretty apparent to even a somewhat devout Christian. The Colognian Church is what I would consider the real life modern-day Catholic Church, besides that it isn't based in Rome and isn't called Roman Catholic. Like I said, the Old Church is a "best of all worlds" approach. Old-style, but not made up doctrine. It isn't the real life Catholic Church, but it is essentially that real Church at one point in history, and it isn't heretical by regular Christian standards. It's meant to be a unique approach that grants player flexibility, and allows them to call their nation Roman Catholic without OOC reprisal, and allows them to not worry so much about what their religion is. It wasn't meant to be the RL Catholic Church. If that were the case, I would have just joined the Colognians and called my nation Roman Catholic. |
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| Rhadamanthus | Jul 16 2009, 09:48 PM Post #92 |
Legitimist
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My opinion is that anyone can make any church he pleases for the purpose of RP, but others can RP with it as they will in terms of reaction. To me it is meaningless to dispute OOC which IC church is real; such things belong only IC. Let each do as he will. edit: Oh, and this bugs me for some reason, but I keep seeing a misconception: the Genesian Church is called "Roman Catholic." The Colognian Church claims to be "Roman Catholic." We used the terms "Colognian" and "Genesian" to distinguish between the two, not to undermine either claim to the title "Roman Catholic." Also, CE stated multiple times that the Pope was the Bishop of Rome, and that this was the basis of his spiritual authority. He was resident in Genesis City as Emperor of Catholic Europe, but remained the Bishop of Rome. Also, the Genesians now have a district in Rome, don't they? So that Church is based in Rome, if that is an issue for anyone. edit again: And to make clear: I have no problem whatsoever with the Old Catholic, Genesian, or Colognian Churches making any claims they want about Catholicism. Its all about RP; anyone can RP waht he likes. Edited by Rhadamanthus, Jul 16 2009, 09:52 PM.
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| Abnar | Jul 16 2009, 11:00 PM Post #93 |
Mirror, mirror on the wall, who's the lurkiest of them all?
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I see that RD is still the omnipresent voice of reason. Siad, the way I recall, both the Genesian and Colognian churches call themselves "Roman Catholic" and the other by our OOC name (if they're feeling polite) or whatever deurogatory religious name comes to mind. With your new founding we will have three IC "Roman Catholic" churches, and OOC one of each Genesian, Colognian, and Old Catholic church. |
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11:37 AM Jul 13