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| The Catholic Question | |
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| Topic Started: Jul 9 2009, 09:12 PM (1,019 Views) | |
| Rhadamanthus | Jul 10 2009, 10:21 PM Post #26 |
Legitimist
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Except that, you know, Genesian Catholicism changed a lot as CE developed it. The royal papacy, the increased militancy, even the intolerance of other religions were not always doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church as CE ran it. Most of the "deviations" that people refer to are things developed a certain way due to CE's roleplays and his interactions with the rest of us who were RPing in those days. CE once had a council that legitimized contraceptoin and premarital sex, for example, though I think that was reversed later. The Irish could, for example, simple reject every decision made since the death of Pope Jaime as being contrary to the faith. Seriously, back in the day when CE said that his country was Roman Catholic, we knew exactly what that meant. I see no reason why Ireland could not reject things like the Royal Papacy as being contrary to Roman Catholic faith as it was originally laid out... Heck, you are aware that CE's Pope list doesn't start with all new numerals, right? Popes whose names were used in real life seem to pick up the count from the after the real life ones, implying that the real popes probably existed. I don't see anything wrong with Ireland saying that the doctrine has changed. |
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| Rhadamanthus | Jul 10 2009, 10:24 PM Post #27 |
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Legitimist
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When people say the Colognian Church is like the church in real life, they just mean its not militant. They did some heterodox things like ordaining priestesses for a time. |
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| Kasnyia | Jul 10 2009, 11:31 PM Post #28 |
Chairman of the Bank
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For those of us not who don't have knowledge in RL/IC Christian theology, shall we get back to the matter at hand? How should we go about this? Cologne has places to be. :P
Edited by Kasnyia, Jul 10 2009, 11:31 PM.
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| Ulgania | Jul 11 2009, 12:03 AM Post #29 |
A better Zarathustra has never rode a horse
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Hey Sed, you still have quite a free range of movement to do. You can set your own precedents, but you may want to be careful with how much you disagree with Genesians should you take that path. I RPed a radical-Genesian a while back named Marcy Trenks who ultimately declared Neo-Genesianism, just to be attacked and her follows persecuted by NRE's former Catholic Hegemony in Africa. Made for a cool RP, but it resulted in a few million dead Ulganians. |
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| NRE | Jul 11 2009, 12:06 AM Post #30 |
Map Tsar and Southern Gentleman
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Well I bow out to RD as he has farther reaching knowledge of things that I do when it comes to this forum. As for the question at hand of the topic, I can't really say that is can be answer. Until Leb is ready to call for a meeting between the two churches and you, kas, as Pope agree, they remain separate. Genesians are still the same heretic burning, inquisition running Catholics they've always been, with their Papacy ruled by a Dynastic family. Leaving Cologne still the same opposite to the Genesian church that is has been since its founding ^^ However, I believe Sed has decided to go with his original thought of creating the Celtic Church so I guess the question is moot now. :lol: |
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| New Harumf | Jul 11 2009, 07:35 AM Post #31 |
Bloodthirsty Unicorn
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Our "World" began as the Middle East only. A long, long time ago. Since Rome was not on the map, the young CE chose to base his pope in Genesis City. That is the real OOC "why" we have a Genesisian church instread of a Roman church. For all consideration, the Genesisian church WAS the Roman church, with all of its faults and glory. It was tested over time, fought crusades, defended the faith, faught against Saderisim (The first protestant revolution in our Europe), and, I dare say, on many occasions I had characters, from the Grand Master of the Knights Hospitalars, to Saint Elizabeth Rose, test CE on dictrine both IC and OOC, and he always got it right, so to just dismiss our world's long-standing history in favor of the "real" history of Europe (which in our world is just as fictitious as NS is in my real life) is simply not in the spirit of the game. So, if you chose to acknowledge some fictitious church in Rome, I will ignore you, New Harumf will call for the excommunication of Ireland and demand a crusade against the heretics there. I will insist the Pope use every power available to the true Church to beat the Irish into submission. This may be a nuclear world, but when it comes to the Church, many of us are still stuck in the 16th century! Just my thoughts, as a very long time defender (and protester) of the faith. |
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| Sedulius | Jul 11 2009, 12:20 PM Post #32 |
Field Marshal
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Thank you, RD. Someone always seems to make my point better than me. And thanks to Kas, because he made a point I wanted to hear. So that said, what happens to Genesis City? Being taken by the Roman Empire, it might be appropriate to call it Nova Roma. Certainly IC, the city was ancient Byzantium, and when it was refounded by Constantine he would have called it Nova Roma, it being the new capital of Rome after all. However, the city was called by many names throughout its life. Just take this excerpt from a wiki article:
It would be reasonable enough to say IC it was still called these names, but after some time, it was widely accepted as Genesis City. I would think this was the name given to it by a powerful Patriarch of Constantinople, who declaring himself Pope over all the Roman Catholic Church caused the schism with the Orthodox. Just remember, this is all my speculation in an attempt to figure out what happened in our ancient history. I figure some of it was written, but not enough to explain all that is above. Sorry Kas, I went back to church history... In any case, I suppose it doesn't matter much since it's up to RD what to do with the city. It's just an interesting subject. |
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| lebowski2123 | Jul 11 2009, 01:18 PM Post #33 |
Resident?
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The Pope will be calling for a meeting tonight, all nations with even minor populations of either Colognian or Genesian faith will be invited. The Genesian College of Cardinals (basically a post-Holy League platform for Genesian states to discuss issues) will also be created be tomorrow. |
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| Sedulius | Jul 11 2009, 02:28 PM Post #34 |
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Field Marshal
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Two questions: 1. Where is this in the timeline? During the Dominion or post-Dominion? 2. If post-Dominion, is Ireland invited, though it be what I might call Celtic Catholic? ----- I guess I ought to write the official separation soon. Hey, I just thought of it: Celtic Catholic Church. CCC. 3C. Triple-C. Oh gall... That will be its official name. It will not have a pope, but instead be lead by the Archbishop of Armagh, Primate of All Ireland. You can properly call them Celtic Catholic or Celtic Christian. You can call the Celtic Catholic Church the Celtic Church for short. The separation will happen before Catholic Europe falls, but after Ireland is unified. Essentially, it happens during the Dominion war. Officially, Ireland was part of the Genesian Church, but it's teachings were never quite the same, hence the separation. Think of it not as the modern Church, but not as the corrupt old church of Luther's time. Think of it as old Catholic teachings without corrupt or new additions. Of course, there would be some Irish tradition in there, but nothing pagan, and nothing that departed from the teachings. |
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| Kasnyia | Jul 11 2009, 03:04 PM Post #35 |
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Chairman of the Bank
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This is most definately post-Dominion. First of all, the new Genesian Pope came only after the war (at least, thats what I came away from with lebs posts. Keep me honest, leb, if I'm wrong), when Hamburg-Bremen was carved out of the fallen German Reich, which wouldn't be able to happen while the Dominion still has armies scouring Europe. Also, the Colognian leadership is at present a front line fortress city and is too busy trying to save itself to bother with this. So yeah, this is after. Still of two minds regarding Cologne, since I also have the Baschists. Most likely I'll stick to the former and just keep the latter as a religious pressure group, but still... |
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| Sedulius | Jul 11 2009, 03:33 PM Post #36 |
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Field Marshal
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In that case, I'll go ahead and make my separation post as described. |
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| lebowski2123 | Jul 11 2009, 10:04 PM Post #37 |
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Resident?
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This all takes place post-Dominion, Hamburg-Bremen is a remnant of the destroyed German Empire. Sed: To answer your question, assuming you mean an invitation to meeting, yes with the caveat that the Irish would be allowed there as Genesians, not Celtic Catholics (so they should at least call themselves Genesians in the Pope's presence :lol: ) |
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| Sedulius | Jul 11 2009, 11:12 PM Post #38 |
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Field Marshal
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In that case Irish representatives won't be going, but I can see from your post that meeting is for discussing Genesian-Colognian relations specifically. Ireland will always be open to negotiations. We'll see what happens. |
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| Sedulius | Jul 13 2009, 02:57 PM Post #39 |
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Field Marshal
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I know where I'm going to go with this. The Celtic Catholic Church is essentially the Roman Catholic Church before CE started making changes to it. This doesn't include the corruptions normally associated with the medieval Church. Basically, it's old-style Catholicism without corruption. I am going to write a statement that will allow any nation that agrees with this Church to join it without calling themselves Celtic Catholic. Essentially, there could be a German Catholic Church, a French Catholic Church, an English Catholic Church, etc. that were all part of the same Church. We would call ourselves overall the Roman Catholic Church, considering ourselves to be the true Roman Catholic Church. Those who respected our movement, but weren't part of it, could call us simply the Old Church. Those against us would call us what they wish. We would never take on a Pope until our goal of restoring a non-heretical Bishop of Rome to Rome (in other words, someone who doesn't conflict with the old doctrines). Maybe this goal would never be fulfilled, but that keeps the RPs going, eh? I'm doing this 1) for people that want to be part of a Catholic Church that actually calls itself Roman Catholic, 2) for people that want to RP like RL old-style Catholics without extra stuff added on, and 3) to get some good RPs going. |
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| Nag Ehgoeg | Jul 13 2009, 03:23 PM Post #40 |
The Devil's Advocate
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So we'll have the Genesian Church which is (more or less) "Old Style" with divine right thrown in. The Colognian Church which is (more or less) the Modern Catholic Church. And the Celtic Church which is a kind of hybrid between the Church of the Roman Empire and the Medieval Catholic Church. Sounds... needlessly complex. I approve. And I dearly hope for a religious war to come of this... but, you know, my steak in Catholicism isn't going to last much longer. |
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| NRE | Jul 13 2009, 03:27 PM Post #41 |
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Map Tsar and Southern Gentleman
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I agree with Nag, I also desire a few religiously fueled conflicts which have the same epic storytelling, edge-of-your-seat action, and drastic world consequences as the Wars of Succession had. |
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| Nag Ehgoeg | Jul 13 2009, 03:33 PM Post #42 |
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The Devil's Advocate
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With any luck the Nagian Faith will spark enough controversy for some epic conflict. |
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| Ulgania | Jul 13 2009, 03:49 PM Post #43 |
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A better Zarathustra has never rode a horse
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Honestly, I was hoping my colony in Iberia would spark something with its radical Genesians, so they should be able to contribute something to the mix. Not too sure if they would be siding with or against the Irish |
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| Sedulius | Jul 13 2009, 04:02 PM Post #44 |
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Field Marshal
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I just now brought the Celtic Church thread into post-war. I'm going to make a new thread for the proposed Old Church, since not everyone involved would be Celtic. |
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| Kasnyia | Jul 13 2009, 05:06 PM Post #45 |
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Chairman of the Bank
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Whenever I get back from my much needed vacation from this place post-Dominion, and after the reunification of the Kasnyian lands (which will not be so immediately after Gassel's fall) I'll toy with the Baschists trying something, either against Cologne or attempting to hijack Cologne to use against others. Whichever is the more epic choice. |
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| East Anarx | Jul 13 2009, 09:38 PM Post #46 |
Anarchitect
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If you know the right place to look, you can actually buy Catholic steaks in Esternarx. :gnarkgnark: |
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| Rhadamanthus | Jul 13 2009, 11:14 PM Post #47 |
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Legitimist
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Can I even express my horror? (Unless you are baptizing cows - the no horror, only awesome) |
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| Ulgania | Jul 13 2009, 11:28 PM Post #48 |
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A better Zarathustra has never rode a horse
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Please... PLEASE tell me they were killed by lions |
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| New Harumf | Jul 14 2009, 08:33 AM Post #49 |
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Bloodthirsty Unicorn
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As Curley Howard famously said, "I'd rather be burned at the stake than have my head cut off." Why, "because a hot steak is better than a cold chop!" |
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| NRE | Jul 14 2009, 02:12 PM Post #50 |
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Map Tsar and Southern Gentleman
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You know all this talk of Catholicism has made me miss me ole crazy Catholics in Africa. Thus (as I'm prone to change my mind constantly :lol: ) I've decided to bring back the Crazy Genesians a few of us grew to love in Africa ^^ |
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11:37 AM Jul 13