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| The Catholic Question | |
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| Topic Started: Jul 9 2009, 09:12 PM (1,015 Views) | |
| Sedulius | Jul 9 2009, 09:12 PM Post #1 |
Field Marshal
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Due to recent events, I'm unsure as to the status of the Catholic Church in our game. I know there's a new Pope, and that it has been relocated back to the Vatican in Rome, but what does this mean for the Church? Will Genesian and Colognan reunify? Will it be renamed the Roman Catholic Church? I'm asking these questions mainly because now that I have a unified Ireland, I have been debating whether to splitting from those other church, continuing the traditions of the long standing Celtic Church. I was settled on it, but with the current state of things, I'm not sure what to do. |
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| Ulgania | Jul 9 2009, 09:38 PM Post #2 |
A better Zarathustra has never rode a horse
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There is no Roman Catholic Church, and I highly doubt there ever will be IC. Genesianism will be suffering with the loss of CE in an IC context, but it will be back in force. Colognian Catholicism may even be persecuted for the sake of Genesianism exerting its muscle (or to even show it has ANY muscle). NRE, I was actually curious: Since the Vatican is spanning into the Italian countryside is it safe to say it's a Papal State? I'd ask in the other topic but it seems more appropriate here. Sed: Go Catholic, and we can have some fun with my pissed off African Genesian Catholics together |
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| NRE | Jul 9 2009, 09:40 PM Post #3 |
Map Tsar and Southern Gentleman
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Can't say the two churches will reunite, that is something that will be the result of a Council if it is called upon by a Pope and agreed upon by the other. However, as far as the map is concerned in Europe, Rome and the Vatican was saved for the Genesian Church so it could once again be called by the name that it was before the schism, the Roman Catholic Church. This was a personal choice on my part as mapmaker and I think the remaining Genesian States won't seem to have a great problem with it. Its just always been my personal feeling that Genesian Catholicism should have never had to adopt the name Genesian Catholicism. It was the Roman Catholic Church for years before the split and as the oldest of the two faith, it should have been allowed to keep the title forcing the Colognians to take the Cologne name. Thus be reunifying itself around Rome and the Vatican, the Genesian Church will once again reaffirm itself as the one true Roman Catholic faith and certainly have an unwavering history to back up its claim. As for the actual state, it shall be administered by the Pope of course but defended by all Catholic states loyal to the Pope. Edited by NRE, Jul 9 2009, 09:44 PM.
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| Sedulius | Jul 9 2009, 09:43 PM Post #4 |
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Field Marshal
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If it does indeed become the Roman Catholic Church, then it will have gone back to its routs, and Ireland will be behind it, though most likely Ireland will stay unfanatical. |
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| Ulgania | Jul 9 2009, 09:47 PM Post #5 |
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A better Zarathustra has never rode a horse
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I take back my Roman and Cologne comment. I guess I haven't been here long enough to actually be able to answer that knowledgeably, but I definitely look forward to participating in these RPs. |
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| NRE | Jul 9 2009, 10:17 PM Post #6 |
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Map Tsar and Southern Gentleman
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:lol: Well your comment could be correct if you meant: "There is no Roman Catholic Church like the RL Roman Catholic Church, and I highly doubt there ever will be." But yes before Wadj split created the church of Cologne, the Catholic Church out of Genesis City considered itself the Roman Catholic Church since after all CE did have Rome and the Vatican within his borders. Such topics as this (yes I did a lot of grave digging for this one) serve as example. Honestly I don't remember how the decision came about calling CE's Catholic Genesians but it stuck ever since the schism and I really don't know why. Guess I'll just have to pick up my shovel and dig some more to find out. :lol: |
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| Rhadamanthus | Jul 9 2009, 10:25 PM Post #7 |
Legitimist
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IIRC, since both Cologne and Genesis claimed to be the true "Roman Catholic Church," we came to use alternate names to refer to the two branches, based on the cities they were based in. |
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| Kasnyia | Jul 10 2009, 12:23 AM Post #8 |
Chairman of the Bank
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And Kasnyia will continue to do so IC, regardless of official word. Kasnyia would be in favor of reunification and willing to defend the Pope provided the Pope doesn't attempt to dictate the political affairs of Kasnyia in the same way the old Holy League did, since that was what gave the Kasnyian Baschists the sociopolitical ammunition necessary to cause Genesis' influence in Guranburg to cease and give the Baschists free reign to assassinate Cardinal Haas. If that does become the case, then Kasnyia has no problem keeping the Cologne faction away from the negotiating table. |
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| Sedulius | Jul 10 2009, 07:42 AM Post #9 |
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Field Marshal
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Wow. Well hopefully the new Pope isn't that crazy. Regardless of what I do, Ireland will be conducted in an Irish Catholic fashion. You know, historically, many Popes were dethroned by the Holy Roman Empire, replaced by a puppet Pope. The exiled Popes usually went to France and were known as Antipopes, since they were still widely recognized as the real Pope. Did anything like this ever happen? I ask because if at least the first Colognan Pope was never the Bishop of Rome, he wouldn't exactly be legitimate as Pope. Of course, analyzing doctrines, the Genesian Church became an outright heresy, while if I understand right the Colognan Church stayed true to RL Catholic doctrine, besides perhaps its own legitimacy. So, in this analysis, Ireland could not willingly follow a heretical church, nor could it follow an illegitimate church. That leaves the Orthodox, who though legitimate and not heretical, are too far from Irish traditions to logically join. Ireland has the power now to split away, but I'll wait to do so and see just how heretical the new pope is. EDIT: Overviewing the new pope, he isn't even the Bishop of Rome. He might be as pure as pie, but Ireland, regardless of IC history, will only recognize a non-heretical Bishop of Rome as Pope. Sorry to be difficult, but I'm going to have to go ahead with the split. The logic will be further explained when I actually make a post to such an effect. Edited by Sedulius, Jul 10 2009, 08:21 AM.
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| Filo | Jul 10 2009, 08:10 AM Post #10 |
General
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HRE will be glad to see a united church and Philipp will be glad to host a council in Vienna or Budapest(Augusta in Germany?) or if a council fail save a city for the Pope (Salzburg?) |
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| Rhadamanthus | Jul 10 2009, 11:25 AM Post #11 |
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Legitimist
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OOC: 1. If I understand correctly, the new Papacy will be established in Rome post-CE and post-WMD. Others know better than I. 2. Accepting communion in Orthodoxy would not require you to adopt to Constantinopolitan (or Byzantine) Liturgy or replace Irish traditions with Greek ones. You could maintain the Latin Liturgy in the unified Church or even a local Celtic one, if such a local liturgical tradition exist. My Church, in game, has a lot more liturgical diversity than in real life. The Alexandrian and Antiochene Rites were preserved, for example, in Egypt and the Levant, while in real life they were replaced by the Byzantine Rite during the medieval period. |
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| Nag Ehgoeg | Jul 10 2009, 06:06 PM Post #12 |
The Devil's Advocate
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Let's not forget that Rome ate a nuke during the War of Succession. Granted it was many years ago now (and Rome is inhabited)... but Nagasaki is inhabited. A handful of Popes were disgraced. One emerged to be a paedophile and fled to Nag Ehgoeg for sanctuary and died. I think he's still there. I wouldn't call the Genesian Church "an outright heresy". What gives you that impression? The Colognian Church stayed true to the Real Life Catholic Church's current teaching. Very different to the traditional teachings of the Church. The first Colognan Pope was never the Bishop of Rome. |
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| Sedulius | Jul 10 2009, 06:59 PM Post #13 |
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Field Marshal
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Thanks for the input Nag and RD. I call the Genesian Church an outright heresy based on what I've seen. I'm sure the medieval Roman Catholic Church would have certainly persecuted them (though I would say the medieval Church was also heretical, but in different ways... hence why Luther separated from them). However, I'll admit that perhaps I'm being a bit harsh. If the Colognian Church is like the RL Catholic Church, I would say it's not heretical, but being not based in Rome and having never had a Bishop of Rome, I would consider it illegitimate so long as it kept a Pope as its head. However, Ireland would certainly show respect for it. The Orthodox Church is legitimate (It's even recognized by the RL Catholics as a true Church.). As much as I'd like to have Ireland join them, that simply isn't Irish. I want to be as true to the Irish position as possible. I will be... less severe with my separation than I intended before. In the timeline, I want the separation to occur before the Dominion war is over, but after Ireland is unified. Pretty much, I'll state that Ireland has been and always shall be loyal to the Roman Catholic Church, but it recognizes neither the Genesian Church nor the Colognian Church as the Roman Church. One more thing. The Knights of Saint Patrick went into open war with Catholic Europe and essentially paved the way for Roman invasion into Anatolia. I'm not sure how the descendant Genesian Church would take that. However, in post-Dominion Ireland, the knights will have significantly less power. |
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| Nag Ehgoeg | Jul 10 2009, 07:14 PM Post #14 |
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The Devil's Advocate
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"I call the Genesian Church an outright heresy based on what I've seen" What have you seen? There hasn't been a Pope since you've been playing... :unsure: |
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| Sedulius | Jul 10 2009, 07:32 PM Post #15 |
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Field Marshal
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That is one example. Then there's been the matter of Caesar Antonio. Maybe I haven't seen much, but what I've seen certainly isn't Catholic. However, we'll see where this descendant Genesian Church goes. I'm sure the people involved will make it pretty Catholic, but I'll be watching. |
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| Kasnyia | Jul 10 2009, 07:38 PM Post #16 |
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Chairman of the Bank
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Caesar Antonio is literally the anti-christ. |
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| Nag Ehgoeg | Jul 10 2009, 07:50 PM Post #17 |
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The Devil's Advocate
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And Kas doesn't mean figuratively. Anti-Christo. This was the basis for naming him. He's not Pope. He's not even of the Royal Bloodline. He's a dictator installed by a foreign power... Me. Nag Ehgoeg. Age old nation of heathens. Specifically he's installed by the guy who ordered the assassination of a pious pope and offered sanctuary to the paedophile (anti-)pope. |
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| Sedulius | Jul 10 2009, 07:55 PM Post #18 |
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Field Marshal
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Points well taken. You guys know more about the Genesian Church, so I'll take your word on it. However, I've gotten the info I need to make my IC decision and set my conditions as stated. Of course, we should probably continue to discuss the status of the Catholic Churches as they progress. It'll keep people informed of what's going on. |
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| Nag Ehgoeg | Jul 10 2009, 08:01 PM Post #19 |
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The Devil's Advocate
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'Course the Genesian Church Proper wasn't exactly orthodox - and the splinter factions that survived the fall of Catholic Europe are all a little skewed. But heretical isn't what I'd call it. |
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| NRE | Jul 10 2009, 08:11 PM Post #20 |
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Map Tsar and Southern Gentleman
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Sed if I'm not mistaken, you're basing your claim of Hersey against the Genesian Church on grounds that it's not like the RL Catholic Church am I correct? That wouldn't be fair for our world since in our world (as far as I know) CE owned and ran the first Catholic Church and ran it much as it was ran up until the time of the last Royal Pope. We burn heretics at the stake, we have established inquisitions, and the Pope dictated heavily what other loyal Catholics did and they took it because only staying within the good graces of Genesis city ensure our salvation and way to heaven. The RL catholic church and her modern day values weren't present in our world (as far as I know) until the establishment of the church of Cologne. So when it comes to whom should be labeled the true Roman Catholic church based on this forum and the history of our world as created by this forum, it should be CE as it is the eldest and was so called until the establishment of Cologne. Cologne is a heretic church, ran by a heretic man and will burn in the ever-lasting hell fires until it finally confesses its sins and rejoins into union with the Genesians and accepts the Genesian Pope as the one true Pope :P An I thought Genesis City was also nuked in the War of Succession, so what's your point Nag? Oh and Sed, the New Pope though not seated in Rome is of the Blood Line of the dos Santos Aveiro-Medici family, the royal family which has ruled Catholic Europe and has been Pope for generations. These were the Bishops of Rome and by blood, this new Pope inherits such titles. An you know, the Irish could always go Protestant, the Confederates would love that :love: Edited by NRE, Jul 10 2009, 08:16 PM.
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| Sedulius | Jul 10 2009, 08:32 PM Post #21 |
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Field Marshal
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From some Protestant standpoints, the Genesians doctrines presented by NRE would not be heretical. They would in fact be agreed to. From RL Roman Catholic and Orthodox standpoints, old and new, those doctrines depart quite a bit from the established canon, and would be considered heresy. EDIT: NRE, I didn't get your post until after I posted. With all due respect, CE never controlled Ireland or its doctrines. I also don't know of any RPs where anyone has seriously RPed Ireland besides myself. In RL, while the western Catholics fell into disarray and literally forgot how to speak Latin, the Irish flourished and kept the Catholic traditions alive. Charlemagne came to them to reestablish the Catholic traditions in Western Europe. So, quite literally, the Irish are the only reason the Catholic Church exists today. I don't know what CE wrote on that time period, but as far I'm concerned, that's what happened. Ireland has maintained the old Catholic traditions ever since, regardless of how CE developed the Genesian Church. It has only been part of the illegimate and heretical churches because it was forced to by the Brits. Now that its unified, free, and has a decent amount power, Ireland is going back to its roots. Sorry to be so hard about this. I do this simply out of a want to RP the Irish as Irish Catholics (who have always had differences from the rest of the Church as it is), and the Churches in the game simply aren't that. I want to make as true a representation as possible. Edited by Sedulius, Jul 10 2009, 08:49 PM.
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| NRE | Jul 10 2009, 08:41 PM Post #22 |
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Map Tsar and Southern Gentleman
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My point was the Irish, when considering what church to follow, should only take into consideration the history of our world. Since Catholicism was taught the way CE preformed it (heretic burning, inquisition, etc etc) then that's how it has always been and is considered both canon and the natural order of Catholicism for the world. Its only recently with the development of the Cologne church that scholars and churches have begun to think differently, that is to say, that Catholic churches in our world have begun to think like the RL churches. So basically if the Irish are going to call the church of Genesis City heretical they can only do so on the belief that the Holy Book is to be understood the way Cologne interprets it as that's the only logical way one can call the church of Genesis City heretical. |
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| Toussaint | Jul 10 2009, 09:04 PM Post #23 |
Major
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Unless they took a new standing, NRE. Just because nobody's done it yet, doesn't mean that Sed can't do it now. |
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| Sedulius | Jul 10 2009, 09:35 PM Post #24 |
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Field Marshal
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I am not limited, nay, I refuse to be limited in the way that you say. If I'm not mistaken, CE, or anyone for that matter, never wrote about St. Patrick bringing Christianity to Ireland, never wrote about how Ireland's Church developed, and never wrote about the Church's activities in Ireland. Irish Catholics have always been somewhat unique in their traditions, and it would be no different in the game. As the Catholic Church developed in the way it did, the Archbishop of Armagh would have continued to teach Irish doctrine, even under English oppression. Connach O'Shiel was such a man. Henry VIII appointed him the Bishop of Elphin in 1545, yet Connach rejected the new doctrines of Henry's church, staying Catholic to his dying breath. As far as I know, he wasn't executed. The result of such development would be something truly Catholic, yet neither Genesian nor Colognian. I will cooperate to keep with the overall continuity, but from what I can see I'm not breaching it. Sorry if I'm stepping on toes, but Ireland will be Irish Catholic, and nothing else. On that I rest my argument. Edited by Sedulius, Jul 10 2009, 09:38 PM.
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| NRE | Jul 10 2009, 10:05 PM Post #25 |
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Map Tsar and Southern Gentleman
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No I wasn't trying to argue that you can't break away from the Genesian or Colognian tradition. I have no problem with that, please by all means create a third Catholic Church if you see fit to do so, I mean its been done in cologne obviously. I was just saying that you can't called the Genesian Church heretical based on the fact that it differs from the teachings of the Catholic Church in real life. Genesis City has always been, it was never even Constantinople as far as the history of Catholic Europe pertains. Therefore basically, for as far back as anyone can remember, our world has been Genesian Catholic and has followed Catholicism as it was laid out in the Genesian way. Sure you can say that the early Irish Catholics at some point in history decided to leave the Genesian Church and follow the doctrine as they sought fit, but then that's where modern Irish interpretations of Catholicism comes from, these ancient Irishmen and not anywhere else in the world. I'm not trying to be an ass here, I just felt you were justifying the Irish creating their own Church because neither the Genesians nor the Colognians followed the true word of God as outlined by some earlier Catholics because that would be false since there are no (to my knowledge) Catholics before the Genesians of Catholic Europe. Catholic Europe set the basis for Catholicism in this world and to deviate from it is fine as you are more than welcome to do so because its already been done with Cologne, but if you so choose to do it, it should be acknowledged as a deviation from the Genesian Catholicism because it was first Catholicism in this world. At least this should be acknowledged OOC wise, IC wise you can claim whatever you want :lol: An again, sorry for coming off as an ass as I never intended to force you to become a follower of Cologne or Genesis. Edited by NRE, Jul 10 2009, 10:10 PM.
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