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So I've been rather distracted.; Damn you MMOs!
Topic Started: Jun 3 2009, 01:58 AM (1,971 Views)
Comrade Queen
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Comrade Bitchqueen
Quaon
Jul 1 2010, 10:13 PM
From wikipedia: ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collapse_of_the_World_Trade_Center )
Quote:
 
After the planes hit the buildings, but before they collapsed, the cores of both towers consisted of three distinct sections. Above and below the impact floors, the cores consisted of what were essentially two rigid boxes; the steel in these sections was undamaged and had undergone no significant heating. The section between them, however, had sustained significant damage and, though they were not hot enough to melt it, the fires were weakening the structural steel. As a result, the core columns were slowly being crushed, sustaining plastic and creep deformation from the weight of higher floors. As the top section tried to move downward, however, the hat truss redistributed the load to the perimeter columns. Meanwhile, the perimeter columns and floors were also being weakened by the heat of the fires, and as the floors began to sag they pulled the exterior walls inwards. In the case of 2 WTC, this caused the eastern face to buckle, transferring its loads back to the failing core through the hat truss and initiating the collapse. The section above the impact area then tilted in the direction of the failed wall. In the case of 1 WTC, the south wall later buckled in the same way, and with similar consequences.


So, no, I'm not expecting you to believe anything was melted. Nothing was melted.
Nothing melted huh?

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image



Apparently our eyes are lying to us. :rolleyes:

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And I am quite aware that won't satisfy you, but I don't particularly care, as every point you bring up I can counter easily;


You haven't been able to counter it once. All you say is "electrical fire" because a debunker site says so.

THIS is an electrical fire!



The sparks go straight up and are bright white. The fluid in the WTC footage falls and is bright orange like molten steel.



You're frankly full of crap.

Quote:
 
that can be done ad nauseam. The physics of the collapse are well documented and they do not align with the Truther world view.


A completely new physics called "pancake theory" that has never been seen anywhere else was INVENTED!

http://www.911hardfacts.com/report_21.htm#sd

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What remains is the fact that you're underlying premise, i.e., the government planting explosives, makes no sense whatsoever.


http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/riseofhitler/burns.htm

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Btw, I find it humorous that you think it was "hundreds" when only a few acting discretely could act without much notice during "renovations."
No, that's idiotic. If we are attributing the cutting of the columns to thermite, as you so insist despite the fact that the claim is nonsensical, I refer to my previous posting of a very simple equation:

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How much mass would be required to produce molten iron from thermite equal to the same volume of molten aluminum droplets shown flowing from the south tower window:


A mole of Fe weighs 54 g. For every mole of Fe produced by thermite, one mole of Al and 0.5 mole of Fe2O3 is needed.

2Al + Fe2O3 = Al2O3 + 2Fe


One mole of Al weighs 27 g. 0.5 mole of Fe2O3 weighs 80 g.

Therefore, (27 + 80) g = 107 g of Al and Fe2O3 is needed to produce 54 g of Fe.

That means the mass of the reactants to that of Fe produced is a ratio of 107/54 = 2. The mass of thermite reactants (Al, Fe2O3) is twice that of the molten iron produced.

Comparing the weight of molten aluminum droplets compared with iron:

Iron is 7.9 g/cc. Aluminum is 2.64 g/cc. Fe is denser than Al by a factor of 3. For the same volume of droplets, Fe would have three times the mass as Al.

To produce the iron from thermite requires a reactant mass that is a factor of 2 more than the iron produced. Also, Fe is 3 times as dense as Al. So, it would take 2*3 = 6 times as much mass to produce the same volume of molten iron droplets from thermite compared with molten aluminum droplets.


Example:

Assume 3000 lbs of aluminum fell from the towers. If it had been molten iron produced by thermite, then 6*3000 = 18,000 lbs of thermite reactants would have been required to produce that same volume of falling mass.

Suppose 10 tons of molten aluminum fell from the south tower, about 1/8th of that available from the airplane. If it had been molten iron produced from thermite, 60 tons of thermite reactants would have to have been stored in Fuji Bank to produce the same volume spilling out of the south tower. The section of floor would have to hold all of that plus the aircraft.



A small group of people acting covertly could not place several tons of thermite in the WTC. It could not be done.


And I redirect you to Harritt's paper which describes the presence of thermite in the WTC dust.

http://www.bentham-open.org/pages/content.php?TOCPJ/2009/00000002/00000001/7TOCPJ.SGM

And who's going to question people with authorized ID anyhow?

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Further, you have presented evidence that there was renovation work going on in tower 1 and tower 2. You have presented nothing in regards to WTC7.


AMEC.

http://www.lookingglassnews.org/viewstory.php?storyid=4531

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They weren't exactly worried about life and property when time to blow the whole thing up came along.
Which is begging the question, as you are using your conclusion (i.e., the government blew up the WTC) to justify your evidence.

Protip: Making wild claims without being able to back them up makes you look bad.

Protip: Saying "protip" is douchy, except when ironically mocking someone else's use of protip.


Blah blah blah blah.
Edited by Comrade Queen, Jul 1 2010, 10:53 PM.
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Quaon
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A Prince Amoung Men-Shoot First and Ask Questions Later
Quote:
 
Nothing melted huh?
Let me rephrase: no part of the WTC melted. That was aluminum from the plane, which melts at a much lower temperature than steel.
Quote:
 
You haven't been able to counter it once. All you say is "electrical fire" because a debunker site says so.
Since my explanation for the destruction of the core columns had nothing to do with electrical fire, I'm going to assume you simply aren't reading my post.

Quote:
 
A completely new physics called "pancake theory" that has never been seen anywhere else was INVENTED!
Which is not what I described; I described the NIST account of the collapse, which explicitly is not pancake theory - the NIST thinks Pancake theory is bullshit.
Quote:
 
And I redirect you to Harritt's paper which describes the presence of thermite in the WTC dust.
Which could easily be trace material left over from construction. Further, the scientists involved in this are hacks.
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:rolleyes:

You have the same general lack of common courtesy, politeness, and common sense that all of the crazy conspiracy advocates posses.
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Comrade Queen
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Quaon
Jul 1 2010, 11:09 PM
Quote:
 
Nothing melted huh?
Let me rephrase: no part of the WTC melted. That was aluminum from the plane, which melts at a much lower temperature than steel.
Tell that to the persisting heat and anomalously high temperatures.

http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/rubblefires.html
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/thermite.htm?q=thermite.htm

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Quote:
 
You haven't been able to counter it once. All you say is "electrical fire" because a debunker site says so.
Since my explanation for the destruction of the core columns had nothing to do with electrical fire, I'm going to assume you simply aren't reading my post.


You can't even tell me what happened to them! They just didn't disappear!

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Quote:
 
A completely new physics called "pancake theory" that has never been seen anywhere else was INVENTED!
Which is not what I described; I described the NIST account of the collapse, which explicitly is not pancake theory - the NIST thinks Pancake theory is bullshit.


No, what you described was pancake theory.

http://911research.wtc7.net/talks/wtc/explanations.html

NIST's is just a variant!

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Quote:
 
And I redirect you to Harritt's paper which describes the presence of thermite in the WTC dust.
Which could easily be trace material left over from construction. Further, the scientists involved in this are hacks.


Says you.
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Quaon
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Quote:
 
Tell that to the persisting heat and anomalously high temperatures.
700 degrees Celsius? That's not anomalous - the fire in the WTC burned at 1000 degrees celsius! Aluminum alloys melt between 450 and 650 degrees celsius.
Quote:
 
You can't even tell me what happened to them! They just didn't disappear!
They were in the rubble.
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Comrade Queen
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Quaon
Jul 1 2010, 11:35 PM
Quote:
 
Tell that to the persisting heat and anomalously high temperatures.
700 degrees Celsius? That's not anomalous - the fire in the WTC burned at 1000 degrees celsius! Aluminum alloys melt between 450 and 650 degrees celsius.
You didn't read the link, did you?

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In perfect conditions the maximum temperature that can be reached by hydrocarbons such as jet fuel burning in air is 1520° F (825° C). When the World Trade Center collapsed the deeply buried fires would have been deprived of oxygen and their temperatures would have significantly decreased.

Why was the temperature at the core of "the pile" nearly 500° F hotter than the maximum burning temperature of jet fuel a full seven days after the collapses? There were no infernos in either of the twin towers before they collapsed, so what caused the hot spots deep in their wreckage?


And here's your aluminum. The only thing orange in this video is the container.



Quote:
 
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You can't even tell me what happened to them! They just didn't disappear!
They were in the rubble.


Are you sure? They way you debunkers talk about the WTC you'd think the cores didn't exist!
Edited by Comrade Queen, Jul 1 2010, 11:43 PM.
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Quaon
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Quote:
 
And here's your aluminum. The only thing orange in this video is the container.
That'd be really relevant if it weren't for the fact that aluminum has a very high melting point whereas aluminum alloy has a very low melting point.

Quote:
 
Are you sure? They way you debunkers talk about the WTC you'd think the cores didn't exist!
The way you "Truthers" talk about human nature, you'd think government agents were robots.

Edit: Further, what does 700 degrees have to do with aluminum alloy in the first place? There were other things burning in the WTC. There's no reason to insist the only thing that could be burning was aluminum.
Edited by Quaon, Jul 1 2010, 11:56 PM.
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Comrade Queen
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Quaon
Jul 1 2010, 11:51 PM
Quote:
 
And here's your aluminum. The only thing orange in this video is the container.
That'd be really relevant if it weren't for the fact that aluminum has a very high melting point whereas aluminum alloy has a very low melting point.
I had a very hard time finding numbers for alloy melting times, but your favorite debunking source says this.

Quote:
 

Jones writes: "This is a point worth emphasizing: aluminum has low emissivity and high reflectivity, so that in daylight conditions molten aluminum will appear silvery-gray"

I think at a cooler temperature, he's right.


The temperatures in his NIST quote earlier defeat his own argument

Quote:
 
"NIST concluded that the source of the molten material was aluminum alloys from the aircraft, since these are known to melt between 475 degrees Celsius and 640 degrees Celsius (depending on the particular alloy), well below the expected temperatures (about 1,000 degrees Celsius) in the vicinity of the fires. Aluminum is not expected to ignite at normal fire temperatures and there is no visual indication that the material flowing from the tower was burning.

Pure liquid aluminum would be expected to appear silvery. However, the molten metal was very likely mixed with large amounts of hot, partially burned, solid organic materials (e.g., furniture, carpets, partitions and computers) which can display an orange glow, much like logs burning in a fireplace. The apparent color also would have been affected by slag formation on the surface."


So is it cool or is it hot? It can't be both.

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Are you sure? They way you debunkers talk about the WTC you'd think the cores didn't exist!
The way you "Truthers" talk about human nature, you'd think government agents were robots.


I'm waiting on your opinion on that whistleblowing Sergeant.

Also, death threats on family and big cash payments can easily make anyone work in your favor. That IS human nature. "Tell anyone and your whole family has a sudden series of mysterious accidents" or "Whoo-hoo! I'm goin' ta Disney world!" It depends on the morals. This is largely a psychology and sociology debate, though.

Quote:
 
Edit: Further, what does 700 degrees have to do with aluminum alloy in the first place? There were other things burning in the WTC. There's no reason to insist the only thing that could be burning was aluminum.


One, that ultimately proves that you only looked at the first paragraph. See what I did there? Here's the full section.


Quote:
 
Image source: USGS Spectroscopy Lab

The temperature at the core of "the pile," is near 2000 degrees Fahrenheit, according to fire officials, who add that the fires are too deep for firefighters to get to. [ABC News, 9/18/01]



"This is how it's been since day one...and this is six weeks later. As we get closer to the center of this it gets hotter and hotter - it's probably 1500 degrees."
WMV video download (616kB)



"Out on the rubble it's still, I believe, 1,100 degrees. The guys boots just melt within a few hours."

WMV video download (130kB)




In perfect conditions the maximum temperature that can be reached by hydrocarbons such as jet fuel burning in air is 1520° F (825° C). When the World Trade Center collapsed the deeply buried fires would have been deprived of oxygen and their temperatures would have significantly decreased.

Why was the temperature at the core of "the pile" nearly 500° F hotter than the maximum burning temperature of jet fuel a full seven days after the collapses? There were no infernos in either of the twin towers before they collapsed, so what caused the hot spots deep in their wreckage?


And also, there's a nice bit further down about a mysterious artifact dubbed "the Meteorite."

Quote:
 
One of the more unusual artefacts to emerge from the rubble is this rock-like object which has come to be known as "the meteorite". "This is a fused element of molten steel and concrete all fused by the heat into one single element."
WMV video download (376kB)






Melted police guns and concrete retrieved from the World Trade Center wreckage [Details]
Edited by Comrade Queen, Jul 2 2010, 01:05 AM.
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New Harumf
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If you were watching the live feed of the collapse, as I was, you would see that as the top collapsed, the bottom was also buckling - as if a controlled explosion took place to bring the building down in its footprint. Subsequent replays seemed to add much dust at the bottom and you could not see it. As the first tower came down, I turned to a co-worker and said, "They had bombs in the building too! Damn!"
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Nag Ehgoeg
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Wheels within wheels man.

I love how we have three kinds of people:

1. The Sheeple: Saddam is behind 9/11! Saddam has WMD! We're bringing Democracy to Saddam's people! The government is awesome! Put the rats on her!
2. The Amandas: I don't believe the government is evil enough to kill our own people, but it's evil enough to exploit their deaths, bomb civilians of another nation, cause the death of our soldiers and maintain invasion forces that prompt terrorist attacks.
3. The Crackpots: Nine years ago the government, for reasons unknown, attacked us, for benefits unclear, to achieve aims that I don't know about, but are assuredly evil.

What did the US get from 9/11?

Answer that and you see who's right.

9/11 was a terrorist attack. One in which the US government was complicit in (how many times were members of the plot detained before allowed on the planes?). One that the US government provoked with its foriegn policies. One that the US government had been warned about. One that the US government (both the current administration and the opposition) exploited.

One that the US government had no reason to fake. Not to say they didn't have motive, simply that they could have done a much better job to achieve specific ends. Are we really expected to believe, what, that Bush faked an attack to take away our freedoms, only to slowly return most of them over four years so that the next government could have tighter restrictions on what you can take into a plane? That's a real sinister plot there. Real cost-effective too.

C'mon.

Clearly, this is not the US government version of Krystalnatch. Bush is not still in power. While there remains a cartel of powers behind the throne, no-one is clearly benefiting.

The US government can and would do this: if it benefitted them. I just don't see the benefit.

Yes, there are inconsistancies.
Yes, there is circumstantial evidence of a plot.

But there are inconsistancies with air traffic reports and poor quality pictures of UFOs doesn't prove the existance of extra-terristial life.

For an event of this scale, there will always be grief, rationalisation, exploitists, crackpots and attention seekers.

Give me a benefit. Point to what 9/11 achieved.
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Comrade Queen
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Comrade Bitchqueen
Nag Ehgoeg
Jul 2 2010, 11:51 AM
Wheels within wheels man.

I love how we have three kinds of people:

1. The Sheeple: Saddam is behind 9/11! Saddam has WMD! We're bringing Democracy to Saddam's people! The government is awesome! Put the rats on her!
2. The Amandas: I don't believe the government is evil enough to kill our own people, but it's evil enough to exploit their deaths, bomb civilians of another nation, cause the death of our soldiers and maintain invasion forces that prompt terrorist attacks.
3. The Crackpots: Nine years ago the government, for reasons unknown, attacked us, for benefits unclear, to achieve aims that I don't know about, but are assuredly evil.

What did the US get from 9/11?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USA_PATRIOT_Act
http://www.talkleft.com/story/2009/1/15/9533/54420
http://www.pcworld.com/article/123246/united_states_to_require_rfid_chips_in_passports.html
http://travel.state.gov/travel/cbpmc/cbpmc_2223.html
http://www.fastcompany.com/blog/kit-eaton/technomix/full-body-scanners-airports-good-bad-and-ugly
http://radioviceonline.com/obama-executive-order-provides-interpol-diplomatic-immunity-update/
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/5502984/in_case_of_cyberterrorism_bill_proposed.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_on_Terror
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Afghanistan_(2001%E2%80%93present)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_War
http://whitehouser.com/policy/domestic/outrageous-gas-prices-and-americas-failing-economy/
http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/banking/p91828.asp
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703954904575110124037066854.html?mod=WSJ_hpp_MIDDLENexttoWhatsNewsThird
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/jan/13/war-with-iran-nears/

The answer to your question is the gradual transformation of a free Republic into an authoritarian police state which can later be assimilated into a global government. 9-11 was their Reichstag Fire.
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Nag Ehgoeg
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Scythirus
Jul 2 2010, 12:24 PM
Nag Ehgoeg
Jul 2 2010, 11:51 AM
What did the US get from 9/11?


The answer to your question is the gradual transformation of a free Republic into an authoritarian police state which can later be assimilated into a global government. 9-11 was their Reichstag Fire.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USA_PATRIOT_Act - Numerous sunset provisions
http://www.talkleft.com/story/2009/1/15/9533/54420 - Read the article. Stuff the government was already doing made legal.
http://www.pcworld.com/article/123246/united_states_to_require_rfid_chips_in_passports.html - Containing the same information printed on the passport.
http://travel.state.gov/travel/cbpmc/cbpmc_2223.html - Standardising paperwork "Oh noes, I need a passport to fly!"
http://www.fastcompany.com/blog/kit-eaton/technomix/full-body-scanners-airports-good-bad-and-ugly - Yup, this is a direct result of 9/11. Or is the government secretly orchestrating all terrorist plots.
http://radioviceonline.com/obama-executive-order-provides-interpol-diplomatic-immunity-update/ - Valid point. Not directly related to 9/11.
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/5502984/in_case_of_cyberterrorism_bill_proposed.html - Ooo a proposed bill that is utterly insane. We never got those before 9/11.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_on_Terror - Hugely costly.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Afghanistan_(2001%E2%80%93present) - Huge drain of public money, expenditure of lives. What exactly is the benefit here?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_War - Government could have just burned money and come out ahead here.
http://whitehouser.com/policy/domestic/outrageous-gas-prices-and-americas-failing-economy/ - Doesn't mention 9/11, terrorism or even forming a OWO government.
http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/banking/p91828.asp - See above and what I said about the cyberterrorism bill. Only this isn't even a proposed bill.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703954904575110124037066854.html?mod=WSJ_hpp_MIDDLENexttoWhatsNewsThird - See above
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/jan/13/war-with-iran-nears/ - Because that has nothing to do with an enemy of the States actually developing nukes and everything to do with 9/11 and the OWO.

If the US government does want to transform the USA into an authoritarian police state, they didn't need to fake 9/11 to do that. In fact, most of your links (high oil prices, war with Iran, war on Iraq) shows real and practical ways to increase their power without blowing billions of dollars on orchestrating a fake terrorist attack.

The Bush administration isn't even in power anymore. And critics of the government have yet to be murdered. In fact Obama wrote his ticket on the people's dissatisfaction with the Bush administration who wrote their ticket on 9/11. Your parallels to the Reichstag Fire are kinda flawed. Unless it's the secret powers behind the throne (the illuminati maybe) who are profiting from the actions of their puppets in Washington.
Edited by Nag Ehgoeg, Jul 2 2010, 12:59 PM.
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Menhad
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Nag Ehgoeg
Jul 2 2010, 12:53 PM
Unless it's the secret powers behind the throne (the illuminati maybe) who are profiting from the actions of their puppets in Washington.
Which is hard to prove, but you can't disprove it either.
Edited by Menhad, Jul 2 2010, 01:16 PM.
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Comrade Queen
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Nag Ehgoeg
Jul 2 2010, 12:53 PM
Scythirus
Jul 2 2010, 12:24 PM
Nag Ehgoeg
Jul 2 2010, 11:51 AM
What did the US get from 9/11?


The answer to your question is the gradual transformation of a free Republic into an authoritarian police state which can later be assimilated into a global government. 9-11 was their Reichstag Fire.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USA_PATRIOT_Act - Numerous sunset provisions
http://biggovernment.com/sahiller/2010/02/28/obama-signs-patriot-act-extension-msm-and-the-left-silent/

It's not going away anytime soon. Don't forget that the huge document absurdly materialized only a couple weeks after 9-11. It was almost like they were... waiting for something.

http://www.globalissues.org/article/342/the-usa-patriot-act-was-planned-before-911

Quote:
 
http://www.talkleft.com/story/2009/1/15/9533/54420 - Read the article. Stuff the government was already doing made legal.


Precisely. Think about that.

Quote:
 


Making it redundant but allowing the information therein readable by ANYONE with a scanner without having to get near the person.

http://www.spychips.com/alec-big-brother-barcode-article.html

Quote:
 
http://travel.state.gov/travel/cbpmc/cbpmc_2223.html - Standardising paperwork "Oh noes, I need a passport to fly!"


And DRIVING across the damn border!

Quote:
 
http://www.fastcompany.com/blog/kit-eaton/technomix/full-body-scanners-airports-good-bad-and-ugly - Yup, this is a direct result of 9/11. Or is the government secretly orchestrating all terrorist plots.


http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/uk/coincidence+of+bomb+exercises/109010
http://clareswinney.wordpress.com/2010/01/30/us-state-department-admits-underwear-bomber-allowed-on-plane-to-supposedly-help-with-investigations-into-al-qaida/

Quote:
 


"Terrorism," anyone?

Quote:
 
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/5502984/in_case_of_cyberterrorism_bill_proposed.html - Ooo a proposed bill that is utterly insane. We never got those before 9/11.


And because of all the fear and hoopla 9-11 created, it's got a better chance of passing.

Quote:
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_on_Terror - Hugely costly.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Afghanistan_(2001%E2%80%93present) - Huge drain of public money, expenditure of lives. What exactly is the benefit here?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_War - Government could have just burned money and come out ahead here.
http://whitehouser.com/policy/domestic/outrageous-gas-prices-and-americas-failing-economy/ - Doesn't mention 9/11, terrorism or even forming a OWO government.
http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/banking/p91828.asp - See above and what I said about the cyberterrorism bill. Only this isn't even a proposed bill.


You've touched on the tip of the iceberg here but then proceeded to miss the rest of its mass. Let's see how long it takes you to figure it out.

Quote:
 


See cyber bill response.

Quote:
 
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/jan/13/war-with-iran-nears/ - Because that has nothing to do with an enemy of the States actually developing nukes and everything to do with 9/11 and the OWO.


Countries that aren't team players get targeted. Also, Iran has only started proposing to raise enrichment levels on their uranium. Beforehand, their levels were perfectly consistent with their claims for nuclear power.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/10/world/middleeast/10iran.html

Gee... I wonder why they just decided to raise it.

Quote:
 
The US government does want to transform the USA into an authoritarian police state. They didn't need 9/11 to do that. In fact, most of your links (high oil prices, war with Iran, war on Iraq) shows real and practical ways to increase their power without blowing billions of dollars on orchestrating a fake terrorist attack.


A [fake] terrorist attack on the scale of 9-11 creates fear. It makes people afraid for their safety, so they look for someone or something to "protect them." In comes the police state legislation they otherwise never would have considered letting pass. Get it?

Quote:
 
The Bush administration isn't even in power anymore. And critics of the government have yet to be murdered. In fact Obama wrote his ticket on the people's dissatisfaction with the Bush administration who wrote their ticket on 9/11. Your parallels to the Reichstag Fire are kinda flawed. Unless it's the secret powers behind the throne (the illuminati maybe) who are profiting from the actions of their puppets in Washington.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bilderberg_Group
Edited by Comrade Queen, Jul 2 2010, 01:28 PM.
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Quote:
 
http://biggovernment.com/sahiller/2010/02/28/obama-signs-patriot-act-extension-msm-and-the-left-silent/

It's not going away anytime soon. Don't forget that the huge document absurdly materialized only a couple weeks after 9-11. It was almost like they were... waiting for something.

http://www.globalissues.org/article/342/the-usa-patriot-act-was-planned-before-911
Don't be stupid here. When there is major terrorist attack, the largest in history, of course Congress is going to work their asses to get a bill passed that would help prevent more terrorist attacks. They aren't going to sit around and take their time while national security is threatened.

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Precisely. Think about that.
If the government was already passing laws like that, then why would they have to fake the WTC attack? There's no reason too. And besides, as Nag said, those restrictions that were placed gradually were removed.


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Making it redundant but allowing the information therein readable by ANYONE with a scanner without having to get near the person.

http://www.spychips.com/alec-big-brother-barcode-article.html
Big whoop. Like the name, nationality, gender, date of birth, and place of birth of the passport holder, as well as a digitized photograph of that person is that important. Its easy enough to grab that stuff. Government officials would have no problem getting info like that on a normal basis. Also, people don't carry their passport around with them everywhere.


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And DRIVING across the damn border!
You know, illegal immigration is a big problem in America. There's an obvious reason to why we have it, not simply for national security.

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Nag Ehgoeg
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The Devil's Advocate

Atticus
Jul 2 2010, 02:57 PM
Quote:
 
http://biggovernment.com/sahiller/2010/02/28/obama-signs-patriot-act-extension-msm-and-the-left-silent/

It's not going away anytime soon. Don't forget that the huge document absurdly materialized only a couple weeks after 9-11. It was almost like they were... waiting for something.

http://www.globalissues.org/article/342/the-usa-patriot-act-was-planned-before-911
Don't be stupid here. When there is major terrorist attack, the largest in history, of course Congress is going to work their asses to get a bill passed that would help prevent more terrorist attacks. They aren't going to sit around and take their time while national security is threatened.
BAAAA! BAAAA!

Nevermind that the bombers were stopped using the security systems already in place, but then out of sheer idiocy let on the planes anyway. :rolleyes:

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Precisely. Think about that.
If the government was already passing laws like that, then why would they have to fake the WTC attack? There's no reason too. And besides, as Nag said, those restrictions that were placed gradually were removed.

Some of them have been. Some haven't. The legal framework is in place to revive those that have, and to pass new restrictions.

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Making it redundant but allowing the information therein readable by ANYONE with a scanner without having to get near the person.

http://www.spychips.com/alec-big-brother-barcode-article.html
Big whoop. Like the name, nationality, gender, date of birth, and place of birth of the passport holder, as well as a digitized photograph of that person is that important. Its easy enough to grab that stuff. Government officials would have no problem getting info like that on a normal basis. Also, people don't carry their passport around with them everywhere.

Easy enough to get? Maybe.

More than enough information for identity theft? You betcha.

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And DRIVING across the damn border!
You know, illegal immigration is a big problem in America. There's an obvious reason to why we have it, not simply for national security.

Because, you know, this is the absolute best way of addressing illegal immigration... :rolleyes:
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Deleted User
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BAAAA! BAAAA!

Nevermind that the bombers were stopped using the security systems already in place, but then out of sheer idiocy let on the planes anyway.
Regardless, we are talking about the patriot act here, it went it went further than just revamping the airport security system. One of its purposes was to root out terrorism and increase surveillance on them. To find the terrorists before they even go through the airport security, as well as trying to root out the ones already here.

Its simply a common human reaction to see heighten security after an attack like that. They didn't have this planned, this is just a reaction.

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Some of them have been. Some haven't. The legal framework is in place to revive those that have, and to pass new restrictions.
And you think they will pass with the Obama administration in power?

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Easy enough to get? Maybe.

More than enough information for identity theft? You betcha.
You can get this information much more easily than scanning the microchips in people's passports. There's simply not that much you can do with that type of information.

This chip is simply makes it harder for people to tamper and forge the passports.

Also:
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In the passport rules it released Tuesday, the State Department said that it was taking several security precautions. The RFID chips will use encrypted digital signatures to prevent tampering; and they will be so-called passive RFID chips, which do not broadcast personal information unless within inches of an RFID reader machine. To protect against data leaks, the e-passports will come with an "antiskimming" material that blocks radio waves on the passport's back and spine, the State Department notice said.
(http://www.pcworld.com/article/123246/united_states_to_require_rfid_chips_in_passports.html)

This makes it much harder for anyone to use a scanner to get the information. You would need to be within inches to get the info, not to mention you would have to have an RFID reader. It would be more continent to just look and read it at that point.

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Because, you know, this is the absolute best way of addressing illegal immigration...
It may not be the absolute best, but it certainly does help.

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Comrade Queen
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Comrade Bitchqueen
Atticus
Jul 2 2010, 02:57 PM
Quote:
 
http://biggovernment.com/sahiller/2010/02/28/obama-signs-patriot-act-extension-msm-and-the-left-silent/

It's not going away anytime soon. Don't forget that the huge document absurdly materialized only a couple weeks after 9-11. It was almost like they were... waiting for something.

http://www.globalissues.org/article/342/the-usa-patriot-act-was-planned-before-911
Don't be stupid here. When there is major terrorist attack, the largest in history, of course Congress is going to work their asses to get a bill passed that would help prevent more terrorist attacks. They aren't going to sit around and take their time while national security is threatened.
Uh, that's what the entire point of 9-11, to give Congress incentive to pass shit like this.

Nevermind that you just overlooked what I was saying here: The PATRIOT Act was already written! It was sitting and waiting for something like 9-11 to happen! Didn't you read the article?

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Precisely. Think about that.
If the government was already passing laws like that, then why would they have to fake the WTC attack? There's no reason too. And besides, as Nag said, those restrictions that were placed gradually were removed.


IT WASN'T already passing laws like that. What it was already DOING was spying on American phone conversations... ILLEGALLY. Aren't you reading anything???

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Making it redundant but allowing the information therein readable by ANYONE with a scanner without having to get near the person.

http://www.spychips.com/alec-big-brother-barcode-article.html
Big whoop. Like the name, nationality, gender, date of birth, and place of birth of the passport holder, as well as a digitized photograph of that person is that important. Its easy enough to grab that stuff. Government officials would have no problem getting info like that on a normal basis. Also, people don't carry their passport around with them everywhere.


See Nag's response.

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And DRIVING across the damn border!
You know, illegal immigration is a big problem in America. There's an obvious reason to why we have it, not simply for national security.


Once again, Nag said it. Illegal immigrants aren't coming through the border check points. They're swimming across the Rio Grande and climbing fences. This passport requirement SOLVES NOTHING!
Edited by Comrade Queen, Jul 2 2010, 09:22 PM.
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Quaon
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A Prince Amoung Men-Shoot First and Ask Questions Later
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Nevermind that you just overlooked what I was saying here: The PATRIOT Act was already written! It was sitting and waiting for something like 9-11 to happen! Didn't you read the article?
lolwut

The article, which was clearly written by a loon (and do note, I am in opposition to the USAPATRIOT Act), doesn't even say that said act was literally written beforehand; it said that certain provisions of the act had been proposed before. Further, the credibility of said article is nill, considering the fact that it alleges Oklahoma City was a government conspiracy, when Timothy McVeigh confessed to the attack.
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Comrade Queen
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Comrade Bitchqueen
Quaon
Jul 2 2010, 10:02 PM
Quote:
 
Nevermind that you just overlooked what I was saying here: The PATRIOT Act was already written! It was sitting and waiting for something like 9-11 to happen! Didn't you read the article?
lolwut

The article, which was clearly written by a loon (and do note, I am in opposition to the USAPATRIOT Act), doesn't even say that said act was literally written beforehand; it said that certain provisions of the act had been proposed before. Further, the credibility of said article is nill, considering the fact that it alleges Oklahoma City was a government conspiracy, when Timothy McVeigh confessed to the attack.
Um... first paragraph.

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Many people do not know that the USA PATRIOT Act was already written and ready to go long before September 11th. Recent criticism of Bush's admission that he had received warnings only weeks before September 11th has made it more important to understand the origins of the USAPA.


The article implies clearly that everything was pretty much copypasta'd into the one ginormous volume that Congress passed without reading. I sincerely doubt they could have written the whole thing from scratch in just a few weeks because the type face is small, free of errors, and several hundred pages long. It was prepped.

As for McVeigh, and the Oklahoma City Bombing, there's been uncertainty about that for ages.

http://www.apfn.org/apfn/mcveigh2.htm
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/MCVEIGH+LAWYER:+CONFESSION+FAKE.(NEWS)-a064870697
http://www.allbusiness.com/services/business-services-miscellaneous-business/4680541-1.html
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Quaon
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A Prince Amoung Men-Shoot First and Ask Questions Later
Quote:
 
The article implies clearly that everything was pretty much copypasta'd into the one ginormous volume that Congress passed without reading. I sincerely doubt they could have written the whole thing from scratch in just a few weeks because the type face is small, free of errors, and several hundred pages long. It was prepped.
The article makes an assertion in the first paragraph and then utterly fails to back it up.

Further, you know nothing of how the government works because this is how most bills are made: they are composed quickly by various people working for Congressmen and tend to be voluminous.

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As for McVeigh, and the Oklahoma City Bombing, there's been uncertainty about that for ages.
No. You have a pathological distrust of every official story. You believe implausible things because it fits your worldview, not because there's any logical sense to it.
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Comrade Queen
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Comrade Bitchqueen
Quaon
Jul 2 2010, 10:43 PM
Quote:
 
The article implies clearly that everything was pretty much copypasta'd into the one ginormous volume that Congress passed without reading. I sincerely doubt they could have written the whole thing from scratch in just a few weeks because the type face is small, free of errors, and several hundred pages long. It was prepped.
The article makes an assertion in the first paragraph and then utterly fails to back it up.

Further, you know nothing of how the government works because this is how most bills are made: they are composed quickly by various people working for Congressmen and tend to be voluminous.
Do you know how long it takes to write 400 pages? And edit it? There's a reason term papers are called term papers. It takes the term to write. And don't forget the friggin' EDITING process in addition to writing. Also, I actually overstated the length of time they took to propose it... it wasn't a couple weeks... it was only... A WEEK.

It's called copy pasting.

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As for McVeigh, and the Oklahoma City Bombing, there's been uncertainty about that for ages.

No.


Yes. People wouldn't be talking about it otherwise. Thus "uncertainty."

I haven't looked much into that bombing myself, so I really don't have an opinion on it, but that isn't going to change the fact that others do and have reasons for their doubts concerning it.

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You have a pathological [cautious] distrust of--.


Government. It's the job of the government to lie to you. That's what governments throughout history have done. If you believe governments are always honest and forthcoming, there's a bridge in Brooklyn that I want to sell to you.
Edited by Comrade Queen, Jul 2 2010, 11:00 PM.
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Union
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Pyrenees Republic
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Do you know how long it takes to write 400 pages? And edit it? There's a reason term papers are called term papers. It takes the term to write. And don't forget the friggin' EDITING process in addition to writing. Also, I actually overstated the length of time they took to propose it... it wasn't a couple weeks... it was only... A WEEK.


How long does it take hundreds of people to write 400 pages, I wonder?

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Quaon
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A Prince Amoung Men-Shoot First and Ask Questions Later
Quote:
 
Do you know how long it takes to write 400 pages? And edit it? There's a reason term papers are called term papers. It takes the term to write. And don't forget the friggin' EDITING process in addition to writing. Also, I actually overstated the length of time they took to propose it... it wasn't a couple weeks... it was only... A WEEK.

It's called copy pasting.
And when a hundred people are writing 400 pages not very long. This is how bills are written. You've no idea what you're talking about.
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Yes. People wouldn't be talking about it otherwise. Thus "uncertainty."

I haven't looked much into that bombing myself, so I really don't have an opinion on it, but that isn't going to change the fact that others do and have reasons for their doubts concerning it.
Just because people are talking about something doesn't mean they should be taken seriously.
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Government. It's the job of the government to lie to you. That's what governments throughout history have done. If you believe governments are always honest and forthcoming, there's a bridge in Brooklyn that I want to sell to you.
:rolleyes:

There's a difference between not trusting the government and having a conspiracy theorist world view, which you clearly have.
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Toussaint
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Major
Scythirus
Jul 2 2010, 01:27 PM
Quote:
 
http://travel.state.gov/travel/cbpmc/cbpmc_2223.html - Standardising paperwork "Oh noes, I need a passport to fly!"


And DRIVING across the damn border!
Why wouldn't you need a passport? Mexico isn't the United States.
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