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So I've been rather distracted.; Damn you MMOs!
Topic Started: Jun 3 2009, 01:58 AM (1,973 Views)
New Harumf
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Bloodthirsty Unicorn
...and Branch Davidian???

Kent State??

Ruby Ridge??

Haymarket Square Riots??

BP oil platform "blowing up" mysteriously?

"Discovery" of Black Hills gold??
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Comrade Queen
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Comrade Bitchqueen
New Harumf
Jun 30 2010, 08:20 AM
OK, would OUR government be so dispicable as to bring down the WTC in order to provoke a war in the middle east? Well, unfortunately, yes. They've done similar things in the past.

Would OUR government be able to keep a thing like this a secret for any length of time? I seriously doubt it.

See, that's my only problem. A great deal of your evidence is compelling, but I just don't see how it could be kept secret - people talk.
Ah, you want whistleblowers.

http://www.apfn.net/messageboard/8-10-03/discussion.cgi.64.html
http://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/VonBuelow.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2003/sep/06/uk.iraq
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0922-01.htm
http://www.corbettreport.com/articles/20100305_911_whistleblowers.htm
http://www.rinf.com/columnists/news/911-whistleblower-richard-andrew-grove-transcript
http://www.communitycurrency.org/Lauro.html

And inadvertently, Larry Silverstein himself.
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Nag Ehgoeg
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T.O.
Jun 30 2010, 12:52 AM
Ok if the government is capable of bringing down the WTC and not get caught, then it should be more than capable silencing the people who post articles on the internet pointing out that they did bring down the WTC....
Right, because if you want to keep a secret it's much simpler to kill children and make dissenters disappear in the night rather than debunk fringe groups of nerds as crack pots.

For the record, I don't believe that WTC was a conspiracy orchestrated by the US government.
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Union
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Pyrenees Republic
Quote:
 
Branch Davidian???

Kent State??

Ruby Ridge??

Haymarket Square Riots??

BP oil platform "blowing up" mysteriously?

"Discovery" of Black Hills gold??


Use of inappropriate force by law enforcement/national guard = outright malice at the hand of government to its people?

And you truly believe that the BP explosion was caused by the government?

The same government which is so incompetent to regulate the market, and cannot be trusted to do anything has overarching plots to target and kill its people in ways undetectable by others?

For fucks sake, at least be consistent in your logic. Is our government stupid and incompetent or sinister and able?

Scy, I'm sorry you have such faith in the government that you cannot rationalize the concept that they occasionally be inept and at some point be unable to prevent a catastrophe.
Edited by Union, Jun 30 2010, 12:40 PM.
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Comrade Queen
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Union
Jun 30 2010, 12:40 PM
Quote:
 
Branch Davidian???

Kent State??

Ruby Ridge??

Haymarket Square Riots??

BP oil platform "blowing up" mysteriously?

"Discovery" of Black Hills gold??


Use of inappropriate force by law enforcement/national guard = outright malice at the hand of government to its people?

And you truly believe that the BP explosion was caused by the government?
There's uh... something to that....

http://www.mathaba.net/news/?x=623696

Okay, the government didn't cause it, but BP clearly seemed to know that the disaster was coming and gave no warning.
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Union
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Pyrenees Republic
Why is that the government's fault?
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Comrade Queen
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Comrade Bitchqueen
Union
Jun 30 2010, 12:52 PM
Why is that the government's fault?
Let's say that the refusal to let press in the area makes it very... suspicious.

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Union
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Pyrenees Republic
And? I wouldn't allow press there either - sensationalism could be much more costly than anything else.
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Comrade Queen
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Union
Jun 30 2010, 01:28 PM
And? I wouldn't allow press there either
Then you have no respect for the foundations this country was created on.

The First Amendment
 
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
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Union
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Pyrenees Republic
There is no right of travel in the constitution.
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Nag Ehgoeg
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Union
Jun 30 2010, 01:39 PM
There is no right of travel in the constitution.
You're right. Don't leave your house. You and every other journalist.
Edited by Nag Ehgoeg, Jun 30 2010, 01:49 PM.
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Union
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Pyrenees Republic
Hyperbole: you simply don't have the right to go wherever you want in the United States. If they declare a zone off-limits, they are not violating your constitutional rights in doing so. You don't even have the right to vote guaranteed. The Constitution only limits how it can be taken away.
Edited by Union, Jun 30 2010, 01:59 PM.
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Nag Ehgoeg
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Union
Jun 30 2010, 01:58 PM
you simply don't have the right to go wherever you want in the United States
Why not?
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Union
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Pyrenees Republic
Because you don't. It is not a right. If the government decided to pass a law barring everyone from entering federal land, it would be unconstitutional only because they don't have the right to restrict travel, not because Americans have a right to it.

At the same time, if a state decided to stop letting black people immigrate into it, the federal government would have no constitutional authority on which to overturn that.

There is no American freedom of movement.
Edited by Union, Jun 30 2010, 02:18 PM.
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New Harumf
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Bloodthirsty Unicorn
Nag, we don't have the right to violate private property - no walk-a-bouts here in the U.S. on private land, sorry.

Public land and facilities SHOULD be open to the public. I understand there are times when secrecy is required, but . . . . .

George Soros owns a huge stake in Petrobras. BP was Obama's big contributor. Both stand to make Billions if the Cap and trade law goes into effect in the U.S.. So, first, force companies to drill in water so deep, it's never been done before; blow up a deep water rig in the gulf, just when it looks like we are going to open it up to more drilling; get the environmentalists all worked up; ban drilling in the gulf; pass Cap and Trade, your pet project. But, since the government is so inept at doing anything, they couldn't cause a rig explosionj in the Gulf wirthout creating the single worst environmental tragedy in the history of the world! Good job, Barry O.

Union - violation of the Interstate Commerce Clause, big time. We have the right to move freely from state to state - that is dcided law in the SCOTUS.
Edited by New Harumf, Jun 30 2010, 02:19 PM.
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Union
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Pyrenees Republic
:lol:

Come now.

A better conspiracy would hinge on the fact that Goldman and Sachs sold every BP asset they owned a few days prior to the explosion. At least do it right.
Quote:
 


Public land and facilities SHOULD be open to the public. I understand there are times when secrecy is required, but . . .


They're not public, by the way, not legally. They are owned by the government on behalf of the public, but as I said, you do not have a constitutionally protected right to go where you please. State and federal governments can and do limit it frequently.
Edited by Union, Jun 30 2010, 02:20 PM.
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New Harumf
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Bloodthirsty Unicorn
Union
Jun 30 2010, 02:19 PM
:lol:

Come now.

A better conspiracy would hinge on the fact that Goldman and Sachs sold every BP asset they owned a few days prior to the explosion. At least do it right.
Really? BP International, or BP, USA??

Big difference.

Oh, and see my edit above.
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Rhadamanthus
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Union
Jun 30 2010, 02:08 PM
Because you don't. It is not a right. If the government decided to pass a law barring everyone from entering federal land, it would be unconstitutional only because they don't have the right to restrict travel, not because Americans have a right to it.

At the same time, if a state decided to stop letting black people immigrate into it, the federal government would have no constitutional authority on which to overturn that.

There is no American freedom of movement.
1. The Congress has the right to regulate federally-owned land under Art. IV, Section 3.
2. The Congress has the right to legislate in order to enforce 14th Amendment Equal Protection, and a state not allowing black people to immigrate would qualify.
3. IIRC, the right to move to another state may also be covered under Privileges and Immunities.
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Union
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Pyrenees Republic
Quote:
 
BP USA vs BP UK


http://investors.morningstar.com/ownership/shareholders-selling.html?t=BP&region=USA&culture=en-US

Name: Goldman Sachs Asset Management, L.P.
Shares Sold: -4,680,822
Percent of Total Held: 0.19
Change from Prior Portfolio: -43.72
Percentage of Total Assets: 0.37
Date: 03/31/2010

Quote:
 

Union - violation of the Interstate Commerce Clause, big time. We have the right to move freely from state to state - that is dcided law in the SCOTUS.


79 U.S. 418/106 U.S. 629

Federal government cannot take action to protect freedom of movement due to privileges and immunities clause.

Mann Act: Banned travel of non-married females across interstate lines for "lewd purposes". Still in effect in 2010.

381 U.S. 1: Recognized that the State Department has the right to limit freedom of travel, such as travel to Cuba.

Saenz v Roe, majority opinion: the Constitution does not contain the word "travel" in any context, let alone an explicit right to travel (except for members of Congress, who are guaranteed the right to travel to and from Congress). It is worth noting that the right to travel was explicit in the Articles of Confederation, which makes its exclusion interesting.

Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Reconciliation Act of 1996: people who owe child support may be limited in movement. Weinstein v Albright and Eunique v Powell failed to overturn this act.

P.L. 107-71: An individual that refuses to submit to a search for materials at airport may be prohibited to travel. The 'no fly' list itself is an extension of this, despite earlier court decisions ruling that freedom of movement included freedom to chose by what vehicle you moved.

Quote:
 

2. The Congress has the right to legislate in order to enforce 14th Amendment Equal Protection, and a state not allowing black people to immigrate would qualify.


Immigrants are not citizens or residents, and thus not under the jurisdiction of the state at the time their immigration is rejected.

Quote:
 
diction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.


This is how the Exclusion Acts against certain ethnic groups in the past were passed.
Edited by Union, Jun 30 2010, 02:36 PM.
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Rhadamanthus
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Legitimist

I missed that you said "immigration"; sorry - I thought we were talking about people moving from another state.

In any case, Exclusion Acts were passed by Congress, not the States - Congress has the right to legislate regarding immigration and could simply pass a law overriding a State's purported immigration law.
Edited by Rhadamanthus, Jun 30 2010, 02:45 PM.
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flumes
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CLEVELAND ROCKS!
Don't forget, George Bush caused Katrina...


:rolleyes:
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Union
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Pyrenees Republic
Yes, but I was merely using it as an example. The fact remains that we, as Americans, do not have an explicit right to travel, and thus cannot have that right violated.

flumes, what?
Edited by Union, Jun 30 2010, 02:45 PM.
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Rhadamanthus
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Union
Jun 30 2010, 02:44 PM
Yes, but I was merely using it as an example. The fact remains that we, as Americans, do not have an explicit right to travel, and thus cannot have that right violated.
FWIW, I'm just using this dicussion to test myself since I am preparing for the Bar Exam and was just studying constitutional law.
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Union
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Pyrenees Republic
I work at a law firm during the year as a paralegal. After military service, I plan on doing immigration law.
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Rhadamanthus
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Legitimist

Excellent!
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