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| Obama's Royal Coronation | |
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| Topic Started: Jan 6 2009, 03:41 PM (1,326 Views) | |
| Ulgania | Jan 22 2009, 01:08 PM Post #51 |
A better Zarathustra has never rode a horse
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To quite a few pre-WWII presidents, you'd be a model citizen. However with idealism comes general shocks. And from what I said earlier, if there was another power out there with the diplomatic/military/economic power to rival the US then the world could really advance. Tensions would rise but people would be, well, spending money. Has anyone actually read Jennifer Government by chance? It's all economics but it's kinda what we need. An additional power to force competition |
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| flumes | Jan 22 2009, 01:42 PM Post #52 |
CLEVELAND ROCKS!
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:rolleyes: And then there our those of us who aren't apocalyptic, conspiracy worshiping fools. I mean honestly people... It is amazing how every generation has the "believers" that America is doomed. Yet every generation, the majority of people just put there heads down and get the job done, they don't complain, and they sure as hell don't give up. Look at something as simple as the enviornment... Global cooling... Global warming... Climate change. What's next? To think that any us are important enough to live through a great time of change is history is simply a false hope for attention over nothing. The fact is, our lives are nothing over the course of something as grand as our nation's history, let alone earth's history. We are always going to have our mistakes, and bumps along the way. But to think your special enough to see the end, get over yourselves. I'm not happy Obama was elected. Guess what? I'm not the first person in history who hasn't had the candidate I support elected..... Even more shocking for some of you, I won't be the last. God Bless America. |
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| Tristan da Cunha | Jan 22 2009, 01:45 PM Post #53 |
Science and Industry
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People have been spending too much money, and that's what's gotten us into our economic crisis. The solution isn't to encourage people to spend more money, the solution is for society to save money. Jennifer Government's a fun book to read. It's a fun premise though I disagree with its conclusions. Siadhail, your apathy is actually what this country needs. Voter turnout in the presidential elections in the early republic was always low, and only increased when the social culture or "zeitgeist" if you will, devolved from Cincinnatian republic to democratic mobocracy. People always expect the president to be a magical figure who can solve everything, when in fact a president can solve nothing, and can only make things worse. Once people grasp that beneficient truth, voter turnout will return to its appropriately low levels, and the president will again revert to figurehead ( a respected one) rather than incompetent nincompoop micromanager. Edited by Tristan da Cunha, Jan 22 2009, 01:49 PM.
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| East Anarx | Jan 22 2009, 02:00 PM Post #54 |
Anarchitect
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America isn't doomed, because America is an idea, and ideas are bulletproof. The vast majority of Americans, on the other hand, are heading into the worst economic crisis since the Great Depression, coupled with the tyrannies of an increasingly despotic corporatist-imperialist regime. It's not the apocalypse. It's not conspiracy worship. It's fact. You're right about one thing: the majority of people will just put their heads down. They'll keep spending, and taking out loans, and voting, and believing that their government will save them. They'll keep their heads down and continue ignoring the obvious fact that government doesn't work, it never has, and that it's not just an evil, but a totally unnecessary one at that. But I'm optimistic. Enough people will embrace agorism, or something like it, (simply out of economic necessity if not consistent philosophy,) to carry on the very American idea of a free society. It'll be bad for a while, but the invisible hand just happens to be holding an invisible molotov, and the market will free itself eventually. Edited by East Anarx, Jan 22 2009, 02:15 PM.
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| Tristan da Cunha | Jan 22 2009, 02:04 PM Post #55 |
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Science and Industry
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People will keep voting, but they won't keep spending and taking out loans. That's one silver lining to all this madness. |
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| East Anarx | Jan 22 2009, 02:13 PM Post #56 |
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Anarchitect
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True, but they will for a while. Mainstream (Keynesian) Economics still advocates endless consumerism as the solution to economic downturns, and enough people still believe that nonsense to keep perpetuating it for a while. Unfortunately, in the end, it'll only make the unavoidable depression that much more severe. |
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| flumes | Jan 22 2009, 02:17 PM Post #57 |
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CLEVELAND ROCKS!
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Spending is good. Spending what you don't have is bad. The media is the problem with everything... Make it seem like there are a lot more stupid people then there really are. |
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| Tristan da Cunha | Jan 22 2009, 02:40 PM Post #58 |
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Science and Industry
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People believe the nonsense but they won't back up their big words with action. Nowadays the average person wants other people to spend, spend , spend - but is himself unwilling and unable to do so since his personal finances are in utter chaos. No one wants to jump first, so nobody jumps at all. The federal government will of course spend and borrow on an obscene scale, ruining the economy once and for all. Yet in all that chaos the silver lining (a crappy consolation of course) is that consumer culture is getting buried even deeper in the ground than it would've been. The government can't outsmart market forces and market forces decree a merciless deleveraging process that is reminiscent of the swift and terrible justice of Prophet Isaiah. Consumerism is dead, and rightfully so, and will not return in 100 years (til the next great economic bubble and great depression, if people in the future are still as incompetent as we are today) Flumes, spending is neither "good" nor "bad"... it all depends on the situation. In the past few decades Americans spent so much that society is deep in debt, and the only way to regain economic equilibrium is if Americans for the next few decades save so much that the debt is paid down. And that means an amazing amount of saving needs to occur. This isn't theory either, and people don't need to be exhorted to save. People will have no other choice but to cut down on spending, since unemployment is so high and incomes are dropping. Furthermore if Obama creates a second New Deal, unemployment will stay permanently high. Also, it doesn't matter if there are less stupid people than are portrayed in the media. Debts held by even one person has economic effects on all the people in the rest of society and impacts their economic activities, because that one person's deleveraging causes everyone else's incomes to correct downard, temporarily (a good thing). So circumstances in the marketplace incentivizes everyone, and not just the debt-ridden, to save. Edited by Tristan da Cunha, Jan 22 2009, 03:06 PM.
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| Al Araam | Jan 22 2009, 02:41 PM Post #59 |
Demigod of Death & Inactivity
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There are a lot of stupid people. I don't think the media could do much to inflate that number. Just ask Einstein. |
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| flumes | Jan 22 2009, 05:55 PM Post #60 |
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CLEVELAND ROCKS!
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Spending is good. It drives the economy... The American consumer is usually what pulls us out of recessions... The problem is spending what you don't have, again. When it comes down to it, that is the whole, and only reason for this downturn. |
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| New Harumf | Jan 22 2009, 06:01 PM Post #61 |
Bloodthirsty Unicorn
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...and if the Government spent less, particularly on foreign Quixotic adventures, the people would have more to spend of their own money. Oh, and E - just heard a guy from the WSJ on the Glenn Beck Show blame everything on "Mainstream (Keynesian) Economics "! I howled with laughter. :lol: :lol: |
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| East Anarx | Jan 22 2009, 06:02 PM Post #62 |
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Anarchitect
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What's WSJ? And who's Glenn Beck? |
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| Tristan da Cunha | Jan 22 2009, 06:03 PM Post #63 |
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Science and Industry
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Flumes, the American consumer never pulled anyone out of a recession. The last 5 or 6 recessions were actually never resolved. They were only covered up by the central bank's monetary policies that stupidly deferred present pain into the future, accumulating 5 or 6 little bubbles into one gigantic bubble. Since we're past the baby boomers' peak earnings, this is the end of the line, present pain can't be deferred any longer, the bubble economy of the last few decades years isn't coming back, and we're going to experience one gigantic deflationary crash that's been 60 years in the making. |
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| New Harumf | Jan 22 2009, 06:05 PM Post #64 |
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Bloodthirsty Unicorn
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Wall Street Journal. and you don't know who Glenn Beck is?? I am ashamed of you. |
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| East Anarx | Jan 22 2009, 06:21 PM Post #65 |
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Anarchitect
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Gigantic deflation? Really? Explain how you come to that conclusion. I see hyperinflation as being much more likely.
Meh, after a little research, this Beck fellow seems to be fairly typical of the modern conservative movement. Pro-war, pro-state, pretends to be pro-market but really isn't, etc. Edited by East Anarx, Jan 22 2009, 06:37 PM.
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| Ulgania | Jan 22 2009, 06:56 PM Post #66 |
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A better Zarathustra has never rode a horse
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Paper money is perfectly capable of inflating. The money on wallstreet, yeah, all the same thing. We only have so much for reserves, but hey! Who cares when we can just deficit spend! |
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| Tristan da Cunha | Jan 22 2009, 07:05 PM Post #67 |
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Science and Industry
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We're already in a period of epic deflation since last year or even earlier, so regardless of whether future hyperinflation will occur or not, deflation has already occurred and is moving along at an amazing pace- this is an observation and not a prediction. Credit destruction results in deflation and credit is being destroyed at a rate never before seen in history, and we're probably not even through the 1st inning of that process. Unemployment and demand destruction are also deflationary processes and again these two events are occurring at historic pace. Hyperinflation might or might not occur in the future. The basic argument for hyperinflation is the "printing paper money" argument, except that is an uninformative description of how the US monetizes debt, which is through Treasury sales and not dollar printing. If the US does start printing dollars Weimar-style, that would be an unexpected break from the past, because the US has never printed dollars without selling Treasuries. But with strange events unfolding as they are, it's not a guarantee that the US won't simply change its policy and start printing dollars Zimbabwe-style or Weimar-style, so that's why I wouldn't rule out hyperinflation. It's unlikely though, because among various considerations, crude oil is purchased exclusively with dollars... since the US government wants to keep plundering the Middle East of its oil, it's against its interests to undermine the dollar with hyperinflation. The other possible source of hyperinflation is the US defaults on its debt, which many believe is inescapable precisely because the US monetizes its debt through Treasury sales. But what I think will happen instead is the government will try to avoid that by cancelling Medicare and Social Security. That would extend the lifespan of the US dollar for another couple decades. Edited by Tristan da Cunha, Jan 22 2009, 09:44 PM.
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| Tristan da Cunha | Jan 22 2009, 07:08 PM Post #68 |
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Science and Industry
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Paper money is not merely capable of inflating. It's a whole lot more vulnerable to inflation than commodity money. But historically, inflation in the United States has always been chiefly caused by credit expansion, not by printing more paper money. Edited by Tristan da Cunha, Jan 22 2009, 07:09 PM.
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| Lvsitano | Jan 23 2009, 04:35 PM Post #69 |
Corporal
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why all that religious thing?havent USA separeted goverment from religon? |
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| East Anarx | Jan 23 2009, 04:49 PM Post #70 |
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Anarchitect
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What? :huh: |
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| New Harumf | Jan 23 2009, 04:58 PM Post #71 |
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Bloodthirsty Unicorn
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:unsure: :huh: |
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| Al Araam | Jan 24 2009, 05:26 AM Post #72 |
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Demigod of Death & Inactivity
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There are a number of ways in which the American Government is forbidden from interfering in the religious life of its people but unlike many countries, such as Turkey, a leader who admits to being guided by religious principles does not risk being thrown in jail for the rest of their natural life. A very, very large portion of the American population is religious, so there is no reason that one of those religious individuals, when elected, might allow their religious beliefs to function as their moral compass or attempt to connect with other religious individuals by invoking God. That's acceptable in America. I'm glad it's acceptable even though I myself am not religious in the least. Forbidding it smacks heavily of tyranny to me. |
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| New Harumf | Jan 24 2009, 10:03 AM Post #73 |
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Bloodthirsty Unicorn
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Our Constitution has two clauses regarding religion. 1. The government may not establish a national or state religion. 2. The government may not interfere in anyone's worship or religion. We have not seperated religion from government, only the establishment of religion by the government. |
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| Ulgania | Jan 25 2009, 06:42 PM Post #74 |
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A better Zarathustra has never rode a horse
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As an atheist I feel as though the so-called Atheist Agendas do more damage than good. Also the fact that atheist are pegged as Satan worshipers just amuses me now. |
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| Lvsitano | Jan 26 2009, 04:43 PM Post #75 |
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Corporal
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I was just asking why swearing to the bible and stuff,the founders of the republic where anti-catholics...its not normal to see a president swearing to the bible in my country... I'm a part of a cult calleD" pucha ucha" |
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