Poll: Tech Era

This forum is used with the NationStates web-game designed and run by Max Barry. While not officially affiliated, this serves as the regional forum for the regions: Middle East, African Continent, American Continent, Asian Continent, and European Continent.

You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and can "read only".

In order to get the most out of these forums, please become a member and read this guide - http://z3.invisionfree.com/nationstates/index.php?showtopic=3060

If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features:

Pages:
1
2
3
4

Poll: Tech Era
Topic Started: Oct 16 2008, 09:16 AM (910 Views)
Tristan da Cunha	Oct 17 2008, 05:11 PM Post #26
Science and Industry Posts: 6,792 Group: Veterans Member #86 Joined: November 1, 2004	Siadhail Well, honestly, the only time period I'd be interested in playing statically is the medieval one. I would also be open to playing a technologically static medieval RP. Edited by Tristan da Cunha, Oct 17 2008, 05:12 PM.



lebowski2123	Oct 17 2008, 06:02 PM Post #27
Resident? Posts: 1,535 Group: Members Member #257 Joined: July 22, 2006	Does that not eliminate the entire continents of North and South America? And as for an extremely gradual change, why not choose an era to stay in, and than have members of the new forum decide in a couple of years if they'd like to change?



Rhadamanthus	Oct 17 2008, 06:05 PM Post #28
Legitimist Posts: 12,945 Group: Admin Member #19 Joined: January 13, 2004	lebowski2123 Oct 17 2008, 06:02 PM Does that not eliminate the entire continents of North and South America? And as for an extremely gradual change, why not choose an era to stay in, and than have members of the new forum decide in a couple of years if they'd like to change? I agree with lebowski. This game should take place in a time period when the whole world is reasonably well connected, limiting the game to recent centuries. Regarding tech change, I would support either static tech levels, or a system of gradual or consensus-based tech change, so I will take whatever the forum decides on that regard.



Sedulius	Oct 17 2008, 06:23 PM Post #29
Field Marshal Posts: 4,727 Group: Members Member #427 Joined: March 29, 2008	The Middle Ages doesn't necessarily cut off the Americas. As I've said, the Irish were fishing off its coasts in 800 AD, and we all know the Vikings got there at 1000. And this doesn't stop there. The Native American tribes were very complex. The Osage, for example, at one point had quite the large empire. And then of course there was Mesoamerica, and the Incas... The tribes are not so different than the European nations. It's all just a matter of point of view. Depending on how relationships go between the initial meetings between Europeans and Native Americans, a game world set in the Middle Ages could go far different than the history of real life. Of course, most of the forum seems to have settled on industrial, and I am fine with that. But as I said, static technology in the industrial era does not make sense, as that is an era of invention. EDIT: Specifically directed at lew, letting the members decide when to change is exactly what I've been advocating this whole time. I specifically said about two years sounds right. But that said, to limit it to one era is then pointless, as the members will simply get rid of that rule when they please. Edited by Sedulius, Oct 17 2008, 06:27 PM.



lebowski2123	Oct 17 2008, 06:31 PM Post #30
Resident? Posts: 1,535 Group: Members Member #257 Joined: July 22, 2006	The difference is that I believe that if we go into the whole thing decided on voting on change, it'll undermine the quality of whatever time period we select. As for relationships between Europeans and Native Americans developing differently, large scale interaction didn't occur until 1776, so I don't see how a medieval americas could possibly work... And to argue that Quote: The tribes are not so different than the European nations. It's all just a matter of point of view is plainly outrageous. Maybe you've forgotten complex metalworking, the use of gunpowder, and stonework? Not to mention fundamental differences in culture and societal structure.



Sedulius	Oct 17 2008, 06:46 PM Post #31
Field Marshal Posts: 4,727 Group: Members Member #427 Joined: March 29, 2008	You miss the point. Large scale interaction could have happened earlier with the right set of occurrences. And you fully missed what I was saying about the Native Americans. It all depends on your point-of-view. Calling this outrageous is large overstatement. They are not so different. They both claimed and seized lands for their peoples, they both had diplomacy and negotiation, they both had structured societies, etc. The list could go on and on. All societies have a common ground, and are not so different. The only outrage here is that you seem to have been angered by the fact that I am of the opinion that our societies are not so different, and immediately jump to acting as if Native Americans are inferior. In any case, this debate is rather pointless, as the forum does seem to have settled on the industrial era. At this point, I care not whether it is decided that it be static or not, for eventually the forum will want to advance, and will overrule whatever decision is made here. If not, not my problem, is it, since I love bombing people with zeppelins. Irish zeppelins. Oy!



lebowski2123	Oct 17 2008, 07:04 PM Post #32
Resident? Posts: 1,535 Group: Members Member #257 Joined: July 22, 2006	Well only time will tell if you are here to see it advance. Or me for that matter. And I think you're nuts if you fail to see the geographic reasons why an equally advanced Native American society could not have happened. Let alone the societal reasons. To alter something like that, you would have to go back to the origins of NA organization. Vikings wouldn't change that.



Tristan da Cunha	Oct 17 2008, 07:36 PM Post #33
Science and Industry Posts: 6,792 Group: Veterans Member #86 Joined: November 1, 2004	I just realized that global technological parity even in the 19th century is also highly implausible.



Sedulius	Oct 17 2008, 07:36 PM Post #34
Field Marshal Posts: 4,727 Group: Members Member #427 Joined: March 29, 2008	Oh, well I do see the geographic reasons for their technological deficiency, I'm just making the observation that in essence they aren't so different. (From a certain point of view... blah blah blah). As far as Vikings go (or say maybe if the Irish just went a little bit further), I was just saying if friendly contact were established by them with Native Americans, things could have gone quite different. And yes, I will be here. I plan to stay here until I graduate, and maybe even while I'm an officer... it's a fun pasttime and it enriches the mind. It doesn't really get all that much in the way of things. Were's Uka these days?



Telosan	Oct 17 2008, 07:39 PM Post #35
The Foremost Intellectual Badass Posts: 3,893 Group: Map Makers Member #445 Joined: May 27, 2008	This is a very interesting debate. Both of you have very good points. Siad, the native american societies were advanced for their area. They, being cut off from the rest of the world, meant their technology could only go so far. They were very cultured and had large complex societies, but, as Lebo said, they weren't as advanced as Europeans. Vikings very well could've changed America, given enough time for the ideas to spread. The areas where the vikings landed was later rediscovered by another explorer. In his notes, he stated that they had light brown to blonde hair, and somewhat fair skin. These are characteristics of those from Scandanavia or Iceland. Tools brought with the vikings could have been recreated by natives and traded. There are indian tribes in present day Michigan that have items that were made in the Aztec empire. These items could've been traded over a very far distance, as well as ideas. Unfortunatly, the Europeans came to soon for much impact to be made. So a medieval america is very possible, but it would likely be NOTHING like Europe. When you think of medieval you jump to Europe as your first though. What about Asia? What about Africa? It'd be different around the world, but the general concept is the same.



Sedulius	Oct 17 2008, 07:42 PM Post #36
Field Marshal Posts: 4,727 Group: Members Member #427 Joined: March 29, 2008	And it'd be very fun to RP expeditions! (I almost typed mexpeditions... :lol: )



Telosan	Oct 17 2008, 07:48 PM Post #37
The Foremost Intellectual Badass Posts: 3,893 Group: Map Makers Member #445 Joined: May 27, 2008	expeditions would be cool.



Sedulius	Oct 17 2008, 07:55 PM Post #38
Field Marshal Posts: 4,727 Group: Members Member #427 Joined: March 29, 2008	On a side note, NS2 is starting to get weird. My economy keeps on going up. I have the best economy out of everyone I trade with. I'm selling to Paradise. And the oddest thing of all: my government is still Democratic Socialists. Does anyone have a better economy than me? Take a look. http://nationstates2.com/g/nation/sedulion/



Telosan	Oct 17 2008, 07:58 PM Post #39
The Foremost Intellectual Badass Posts: 3,893 Group: Map Makers Member #445 Joined: May 27, 2008	No, cause I need a nation to have a better economy. Can anyone invite me yet?



Sedulius	Oct 17 2008, 08:06 PM Post #40
Field Marshal Posts: 4,727 Group: Members Member #427 Joined: March 29, 2008	Okay, Nag's economy is twice better. http://nationstates2.com/g/nation/nagehgoeg/ Damn. Well, I have more diversity. :P EDIT: Yet his population is very small. What's up with that? EDIT2- That would be awesome if we could move our nations to another world when NS2 goes public. Though I guess it's only fair that we start out all the same. One thing: the population in NS2 seems to be a lot more realistic. If we end up opting for no game war in our world, we're going to have to change army allowance rules radically for this new world. EDIT3- Sorry. I got a bit sidetracked an just realized this isn't the Nationstates 2 thread but rather the thread I created for it's tech level. Wow, I was a bit absent minded just now... :P Edited by Sedulius, Oct 17 2008, 08:28 PM.



East Anarx	Oct 17 2008, 10:26 PM Post #41
Anarchitect Posts: 4,788 Group: Multi Member #210 Joined: January 16, 2006	http://nationstates2.com/g/nation/esternarx/ It matters a lot what world you're in. Even though my gdp is basically 3x that of Sedulion, I have completely free trade with virtually everyone in the world, and I allow my people to spend more than 90% of their income, most of my people are still starving for some reason. Then again, it is just the beta... Edited by East Anarx, Oct 17 2008, 10:28 PM.



Sedulius	Oct 18 2008, 12:40 AM Post #42
Field Marshal Posts: 4,727 Group: Members Member #427 Joined: March 29, 2008	Damn. Nice GDP ya have there. Yeah, you'd think your people would choose eating the fish and sheep before anything else, eh?



Arya Hindustan	Oct 18 2008, 01:39 AM Post #43
Private Posts: 44 Group: Members Member #480 Joined: September 5, 2008	Back to the debate about moving up on the tech tree, I would like to comment: Firstly, staying still, especially in the industrial eras, would just not make sense. Improvising and development are basic traits or humanity. So if you say we should stay static, you mean to say we should not be RPing humans. Secondly, the simple reason why now we are not moving up the tech tree is because we cant! We are RPing the present. We cant RP future, because we cant say what it looks like. Yeah, maybe a couple of RAMT and exotic weapons here and there, but those are based on possible technologies, just that RL Nations dont use them. Basically, we stay static here because there is no where to move on to. Thirdly, I agree that we should debate the change latter, after we get started and settle it with a poll. But I would suggest changing it 4/5th majority votes. Why? Simple, because it should take a bigger majority than just 66% to change.Thats what I feel at least.



Filo	Oct 18 2008, 04:23 AM Post #44
General Posts: 3,999 Group: Veterans Member #192 Joined: October 31, 2005	America in a Medieval rpg should be interesting, Norse traders arrived in Greenland and may be in Terranova. Adena-Hopwell culture was very developed and Teotihuacan was the omologue of the Roman Empire. Africa too have greater kingdoms and empires: Etiopia, Mali...the Sultane of Mali is the most rich and powerfull islamic ruler... I need not talk about nations in Asia...



Telosan	Oct 18 2008, 07:24 AM Post #45
The Foremost Intellectual Badass Posts: 3,893 Group: Map Makers Member #445 Joined: May 27, 2008	How long are we letting the polls go?



lebowski2123	Oct 18 2008, 08:13 AM Post #46
Resident? Posts: 1,535 Group: Members Member #257 Joined: July 22, 2006	Dobakwie Oct 18 2008, 01:39 AM Back to the debate about moving up on the tech tree, I would like to comment: Firstly, staying still, especially in the industrial eras, would just not make sense. Improvising and development are basic traits or humanity. So if you say we should stay static, you mean to say we should not be RPing humans. Secondly, the simple reason why now we are not moving up the tech tree is because we cant! We are RPing the present. We cant RP future, because we cant say what it looks like. Yeah, maybe a couple of RAMT and exotic weapons here and there, but those are based on possible technologies, just that RL Nations dont use them. Basically, we stay static here because there is no where to move on to. Thirdly, I agree that we should debate the change latter, after we get started and settle it with a poll. But I would suggest changing it 4/5th majority votes. Why? Simple, because it should take a bigger majority than just 66% to change.Thats what I feel at least. I have already posted rebuttals numerous times. Different people posting the same arguments Quote: would just not make sense.



Arya Hindustan	Oct 18 2008, 08:36 AM Post #47
Private Posts: 44 Group: Members Member #480 Joined: September 5, 2008	lebowski2123 Oct 18 2008, 08:13 AM Dobakwie Oct 18 2008, 01:39 AM Back to the debate about moving up on the tech tree, I would like to comment: Firstly, staying still, especially in the industrial eras, would just not make sense. Improvising and development are basic traits or humanity. So if you say we should stay static, you mean to say we should not be RPing humans. Secondly, the simple reason why now we are not moving up the tech tree is because we cant! We are RPing the present. We cant RP future, because we cant say what it looks like. Yeah, maybe a couple of RAMT and exotic weapons here and there, but those are based on possible technologies, just that RL Nations dont use them. Basically, we stay static here because there is no where to move on to. Thirdly, I agree that we should debate the change latter, after we get started and settle it with a poll. But I would suggest changing it 4/5th majority votes. Why? Simple, because it should take a bigger majority than just 66% to change.Thats what I feel at least. I have already posted rebuttals numerous times. Different people posting the same arguments Quote: would just not make sense. I dont seem to be able to find your rebuttal to my "Secondly...." paragraph. Care to direct me.



Tristan da Cunha	Oct 18 2008, 08:37 AM Post #48
Science and Industry Posts: 6,792 Group: Veterans Member #86 Joined: November 1, 2004	Dobakwie Oct 18 2008, 01:39 AM Back to the debate about moving up on the tech tree, I would like to comment: Firstly, staying still, especially in the industrial eras, would just not make sense. Improvising and development are basic traits or humanity. So if you say we should stay static, you mean to say we should not be RPing humans. Secondly, the simple reason why now we are not moving up the tech tree is because we cant! We are RPing the present. We cant RP future, because we cant say what it looks like. Yeah, maybe a couple of RAMT and exotic weapons here and there, but those are based on possible technologies, just that RL Nations dont use them. Basically, we stay static here because there is no where to move on to. Let's just have the game set in modern times, technologically speaking. I simply can't express how antithetical technological advance is to the NSWR way of RP. This game is not at all based on technological novelty and gimmicks. We are primarily a political, historical , and nationbuilding simulation. That means the strength of the RP derives from the political relationships and nationbuilding that accumulate over many real-time years. The traditions and history of this place eventually become so complex that the momentum of gameplay is self-sustaining. Of course, there are always going to be many people who are busy with other things and can't RP all the time (including me) but the momentum of the game goes on, and absolutely does not require new technological gimmicks to keep people interested. So technological advancement, technological novelty, and technological gimmicks are not only unnecessary, they also destroy the point of the game by attracting newbies who are only playing for the gimmicks and not developing the long-term, political/historical RP which is the point of NSWR. Edited by Tristan da Cunha, Oct 18 2008, 08:38 AM.



Arya Hindustan	Oct 18 2008, 08:49 AM Post #49
Private Posts: 44 Group: Members Member #480 Joined: September 5, 2008	Tristan da Cunha Oct 18 2008, 08:37 AM Dobakwie Oct 18 2008, 01:39 AM Back to the debate about moving up on the tech tree, I would like to comment: Firstly, staying still, especially in the industrial eras, would just not make sense. Improvising and development are basic traits or humanity. So if you say we should stay static, you mean to say we should not be RPing humans. Secondly, the simple reason why now we are not moving up the tech tree is because we cant! We are RPing the present. We cant RP future, because we cant say what it looks like. Yeah, maybe a couple of RAMT and exotic weapons here and there, but those are based on possible technologies, just that RL Nations dont use them. Basically, we stay static here because there is no where to move on to. Let's just have the game set in modern times, technologically speaking. I simply can't express how antithetical technological advance is to the NSWR way of RP. This game is not at all based on technological novelty and gimmicks. We are primarily a political, historical , and nationbuilding simulation. That means the strength of the RP derives from the political relationships and nationbuilding that accumulate over many real-time years. The traditions and history of this place eventually become so complex that the momentum of gameplay is self-sustaining. Of course, there are always going to be many people who are busy with other things and can't RP all the time (including me) but the momentum of the game goes on, and absolutely does not require new technological gimmicks to keep people interested. So technological advancement, technological novelty, and technological gimmicks are not only unnecessary, they also destroy the point of the game by attracting newbies who are only playing for the gimmicks and not developing the long-term, political/historical RP which is the point of NSWR. I agree with you on the point that it IS a political RPG. And it is based on exactly this point that puts politics, because politics include everything. Yes, everything. We RP our countries to be better in some way. No one would come here, create a country, and a leader who does not develop his country in any way. This is possible, I don't rule it out, but it would mean the leader of that country does not get involved in anything. Politics is about using any means to get what you want. Technology plays a very crucial factor in this because time and again, since the ancient times, technology has proven itself an asset that basically, given that all are factors are almost the same, gives an upper hand. USA's technological prowess gives the military the credibility to be the best in the world. That shows how technology is important for powerful nations. The Cold War had arms and space races, again displaying the strategic role of technology in politics. Countries wanting power are also using technology as a platform. Iran wants to develop nuclear technology, North Korea claims it has. India, China, Korea and Japan are trying to get a man on the moon. Israel's generally advanced technology has kept it from direct and total war within the Middle East. Singapore's technologically superior military has maintained its soveireignity from, relatively by comparing, gigantic neighbours such as Malaysia and even Indonesia. Britain had also built their vast empire due to their advancement in naval technologies. The whole world is shaped by ever-changing technologies. Technologies have been the cause for so many epic events that have shaped our world. Its impossible to live in a world where politics, nationbuilding and technology are not related concepts. And like I said before, its human nature to advance. If we stay static, you mean to say we are not RPing has humans?



Tristan da Cunha	Oct 18 2008, 09:04 AM Post #50
Science and Industry Posts: 6,792 Group: Veterans Member #86 Joined: November 1, 2004	Dobakwie I agree with you on the point that it IS a political RPG. And it is based on exactly this point that puts politics, because politics include everything. Yes, everything. You couldn't be more wrong. NSWR politics does not involve technological advance and the many logistical and gameplay advantages to having static technology far outweighs having technological advance. You've been around for a month or two... this game has going on for 5 years before you got here and I will tell you, it works out extremely well without technological advance. Dobakwie We RP our countries to be better in some way. No one would come here, create a country, and a leader who does not develop his country in any way. Actually plenty of people do just that. We are definitely not short of people who are genuinely interested in participating in the particular RP universe we've developed here. Certainly we recognize that the NSWR way of RP is not for everybody and we're not seeking to cater to those people, and those people aren't missing out on any fun because those people have plenty of fun opportunities elsewhere that agree with their personal styles of RP. Dobakwie This is possible, I don't rule it out, but it would mean the leader of that country does not get involved in anything. Politics is about using any means to get what you want. Technology plays a very crucial factor in this because time and again, since the ancient times, technology has proven itself an asset that basically, given that all are factors are almost the same, gives an upper hand. USA's technological prowess gives the military the credibility to be the best in the world. That shows how technology is important for powerful nations. The Cold War had arms and space races, again displaying the strategic role of technology in politics. Countries wanting power are also using technology as a platform. Iran wants to develop nuclear technology, North Korea claims it has. India, China, Korea and Japan are trying to get a man on the moon. Israel's generally advanced technology has kept it from direct and total war within the Middle East. Singapore's technologically superior military has maintained its soveireignity from, relatively by comparing, gigantic neighbours such as Malaysia and even Indonesia. Britain had also built their vast empire due to their advancement in naval technologies. The whole world is shaped by ever-changing technologies. Technologies have been the cause for so many epic events that have shaped our world. Its impossible to live in a world where politics, nationbuilding and technology are not related concepts. And like I said before, its human nature to advance. If we stay static, you mean to say we are not RPing has humans? This is a fantasy game, this isn't the real world. Star Wars technology or Lord of the Rings technology must have not advanced for thousands of years, yet the point of Star Wars isn't centered around technology or technological advance. Technology is just a backdrop, and NSWR is similarly a fantasy universe like Star Wars. There ARE ultra-realistic role playing games out there, but NSWR is not one of them. You wouldn't know how many times people have come here trying to change NSWR from the configuration we've always had into something more "realistic". I'm letting you know, it's never happened before and it won't happen now. Edited by Tristan da Cunha, Oct 18 2008, 09:06 AM.


Go to Next Page
« Previous Topic · General Discussion · Next Topic »

Pages:
1
2
3
4