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Eh no big deal; WE ARE ALL GOING TO DIE
Topic Started: Aug 8 2008, 11:15 AM (926 Views)
Sedulius
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Field Marshal
Quality of life is indisputably higher. The data is already gathered. But I don't want to do the research. Do it yourself. :P
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Comrade Queen
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Comrade Bitchqueen
Kasnyia
Aug 9 2008, 02:40 PM
Ulgania
Aug 9 2008, 09:42 AM
Kasnyia
Aug 9 2008, 01:33 AM
An Indian military coup is an oxymoron.
How so? India has a very professional military IRL. They're pretty much always on alert because of the threat Pakistan has posed in the past, and while they wouldn't be able to invade China, they sure as hell could repel an invasion
Thats why its an oxymoron. They're so professional, they won't ever launch a coup. They're the exact opposite of the Pakistani Army, which is very very unprofessional.
Are you insulting my military? :angry:



:D

Btw: Russia and China are too friendly with each other right now to ever go to war with each other. They have a strategic alliance.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Russian_relations

Not to mention, both are supporting Iran. I say the real potential spark of WWIII would be the U.S.-E.U. plans to blockade or otherwise take action against Iran. Thus it'll be literally be North America and Europe vs. Asia.

Not a happy event.
Edited by Comrade Queen, Aug 14 2008, 08:24 PM.
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Sedulius
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Field Marshal
Man, I'm getting really sick of this damn liberal media lambasting Vladimir Putin.

They keep on quoting George Bush saying "I looked the man in the eyes" and saw he was "straightforward and trustworthy." And then they act like that was an "unfortunate assessment".

Um, from what I can see, Putin is being pretty damn straightforward, and he hasn't lied about anything. Medvedev is the one who said he was ceasing hostilities, not Putin.

Gosh, I just want to strangle the media! Too much BS left over from the Cold War. This media is doing nothing but making things worse.

More or less, I'm just annoyed by them constantly saying the same thing over and over again. The media is too narrow-minded.
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Kasnyia
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Chairman of the Bank
Thats from the left AND right. both are creatures of the CW era.


This war has become the most interesting thing to happen this year.



Today concluded that Mikheil is a dumbass,.
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Tristan da Cunha
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Siadhail
Aug 15 2008, 03:39 PM
Man, I'm getting really sick of this damn liberal media lambasting Vladimir Putin.

They keep on quoting George Bush saying "I looked the man in the eyes" and saw he was "straightforward and trustworthy." And then they act like that was an "unfortunate assessment".
The agenda of the American "liberal media" is exactly one and the same as the agenda of George W. Bush, namely: harrassment of Russia, militant expansion of NATO, spread of Chechen and Albanian terrorism, break-up of Serbia, and grand theft of Russian natural resources under the guise of neoconservative-neoliberal economic policies.
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Quaon
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A Prince Amoung Men-Shoot First and Ask Questions Later
Tristan da Cunha
Aug 15 2008, 07:58 PM
Siadhail
Aug 15 2008, 03:39 PM
Man, I'm getting really sick of this damn liberal media lambasting Vladimir Putin.

They keep on quoting George Bush saying "I looked the man in the eyes" and saw he was "straightforward and trustworthy." And then they act like that was an "unfortunate assessment".
The agenda of the American "liberal media" is exactly one and the same as the agenda of George W. Bush, namely: harrassment of Russia, militant expansion of NATO, spread of Chechen and Albanian terrorism, break-up of Serbia, and grand theft of Russian natural resources under the guise of neoconservative-neoliberal economic policies.
Of course, because Russia is totally immaculate.
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Kasnyia
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No, but America does the same damed thing and thus has no place to talk.

Saakashviili is playing us like a fiddle. Mention the Russians and you have automatic American support.
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Comrade Queen
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Comrade Bitchqueen
Kasnyia
Aug 15 2008, 09:57 PM
Saakashviili is playing us like a fiddle. Mention the Russians and you have automatic American support.
More than likely it's the other way around and Saakashvili is Washington's puppet.
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Sedulius
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Though that's true. There's so much (not quite) hatred for the Russians left over from the Cold War.

Honestly, by old-style imperialist rules, Russia has every right to do what they're doing.

But as they say, "In the 21st century..."

Gayy.
Edited by Sedulius, Aug 15 2008, 10:24 PM.
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Quaon
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A Prince Amoung Men-Shoot First and Ask Questions Later
I'm not alleging America is immaculate either. I'm simply stating that Russia is equally good at hiding the truth as the US is, if not better.
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Kasnyia
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By the very same rules they decided Kosovo, the Russians have full right to take Ossetia and Abhkazia simply because the people there WANT to be taken over by the Russians. They hate Georgia.

Ah, the sweet smell of politics biting America in the ass. They shoulda not gotten involved. Here's to hoping Serbia again tries to reestablish itself....
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Tristan da Cunha
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Quaon
Aug 15 2008, 09:46 PM
Tristan da Cunha
Aug 15 2008, 07:58 PM
Siadhail
Aug 15 2008, 03:39 PM
Man, I'm getting really sick of this damn liberal media lambasting Vladimir Putin.

They keep on quoting George Bush saying "I looked the man in the eyes" and saw he was "straightforward and trustworthy." And then they act like that was an "unfortunate assessment".
The agenda of the American "liberal media" is exactly one and the same as the agenda of George W. Bush, namely: harrassment of Russia, militant expansion of NATO, spread of Chechen and Albanian terrorism, break-up of Serbia, and grand theft of Russian natural resources under the guise of neoconservative-neoliberal economic policies.
Of course, because Russia is totally immaculate.
Whether or not Russia is 'immaculate' is not relevant to my point.

"Quaon"
 
I'm not alleging America is immaculate either. I'm simply stating that Russia is equally good at hiding the truth as the US is, if not better.


What "objective truth" did Russia hide? The Russian government, media, and people have been quite frank in aspiring to all of their country's former imperialist glories.

Just because Westerners might be commendably suspicious of their own governments' efforts to dress up Western-style corporate war-profiteering in the guise of a "crusade for democracy" does not mean that Westerners are correct in reflexively assuming that Russia must be hiding something. Plain and simple, Russia wants to rebuild its national pride and wants its place in the sun - and will go to war to achieve this. Russia does not seek to get into the business of manufacturing Western-style absurd philosophical abstractions like "democracy in Iraq" or "sovereignty for Kosovo". As a high Russian official even declared, Georgia should "forget about its territorial sovereignty."
Edited by Tristan da Cunha, Aug 15 2008, 11:57 PM.
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Kasnyia
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Is anyone else waiting for the other shoe to drop? That other shoe of course being Crimea/Eastern Ukraine.....

The Ukrainians are dumbasses if they think threatening the Russians the loss of use of Sevastapol for the Russian Black Sea Fleet will help them in the long run, they are out of their minds. Had they kept shut, they would be happier. Now I suspect a second war will start soon enough....
Edited by Kasnyia, Aug 16 2008, 12:00 AM.
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Rhadamanthus
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Legitimist

My ideal solution to the current affair would be to capture Saakashvili and hand him over to the Russians.
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Paradise
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Resident bureaucrat

Journalism is a tough job:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7563706.stm
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Nag Ehgoeg
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I think it's laughable that everyone saying "old school imperialism - go russia" thinks that Russia will stop once it reaches it's "old boarders" or that the average citizen of countries like Georgia want to be ruled by Russia. Some do. Most want self-determination.

We're talking about another nation conquering others and imposing their will on them by force.

Georgia is guilty of this. They're bad guys.
Russia is guilty of this. They're bad guys.
And, TC put it best, the US (and the UK) are guilty of this and we try to cover it up.

There's no objective morality "this is right, this is wrong" here. But it's in the West's best interests to halt Russian Imperialism with measures like giving the small nation's on Russia's borders NATO membership. Because Russia won't risk conflict escalating as they exist now and will soon give up it's imperialist ambitions once it knows they're never going to happen. Let Russia grow in power (like Nazi Germany) and they will risk conflict escalating.

Now Georgia have been dumb over this. But anyone with a mind for stratergy can tell that they're trying to make Russia and the West play their hands. Russia has been willing to lay it's cards on the table. The West is dragging it's feet (again, classic world war two).
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Kasnyia
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Chairman of the Bank
they won't stop, once they get the old borders, but it WILL wake up the rest of the world about this false peace thats been in place for 20 years. Moreso than the War on Terror (tm) could ever do.

However, they need to get to their old borders first. Self-determination be damned (within Europe). That idea has been the bane of Europe since the days of the first World War.

All in all though, I think Ukraine is the only real prize in all this. Breadbasket, controller of Sevastapol, very large ethnic Russian population, and strategically located. Also huge and with big population. Georgia was merely a weapons test.

My prediction, 6 of the former 15, plus Serbia unite to form a new state willingly.
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Rhadamanthus
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Kasnyia, if I may ask, do you have any particular six in mind?
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Nag Ehgoeg
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Romanus Diogenes
Aug 16 2008, 09:57 AM
Kasnyia, if I may ask, do you have any particular six in mind?
Also curious.

Sidenote: we're on the wrong side. An openly imperial power might well be able to impose a new world order that will lead us into a golden age. Russia is honest. The US is not.
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Kasnyia
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Chairman of the Bank
In order of joining-

Russia itself, Belarus, Kazakhstan, Moldova, Uzbekistan, Kyrgzstan.

The Baltic states were always the most opposed to Moscow and were arguably its achilles heel, in regards t administration and governance, moreso than Georgia ever was or could be. If it wasn't for Kaliningrad, I would write off Moscow even contemplating conquest of the area, since it isn't worth the annoyance.

Ukraine is obviously in opposition ever since the Orange Revolution. A prize for either side for aforementioned reasons.

Georgia, So long as Saakashvilli or his ilk rules the country, Georgia will not join. More likely, it will end up being taken piece by piece. If a Shevernadze-esque character comes to power, then Georgia will join and will benefit greatly from it, especially as it wouldn't have to worry about Abkhazia or Ossetia. Allows it to focus more on important matters.

Turkmenistan I believe has gone back to its roots, last checked. More closer to Tehran than Moscow these days, thus isn't worth the trouble unless for unrelated reasons. NATO won't care about it though, so Russia may take it just cuz its a nobody of a nation.

Not sure about Armenia or Azerbaijan. The latter is more strategically important due to oil and coastline, but Armenia has been more closer to Moscow. Neither seems particularly aghast at this recent conflict (apart from the pipeline being shut off by BP, which is understandable).

The reason I say Kyrgyzstan is that it has expressed interest in joining the Union State that is still being set up between Russia and Belarus, much like Serbia has.

Kazakhstan has always been thought of as ascending almost immediately after Belarus, and is one of Russia's closest allies amongst the CIS states.

Belarus has been, is, and always will be a province of Moscow, either de jure or de facto, inspite of what Lukashenko may think.

Moldova has shown interest in reintegration via the Union State, though that may be difficult due to Ukraine being physically in between.

Uzbekistan has been opposed to reintegration for some time now, and was (until very recently) a friend of the west. That said, it is believed it still wants to maintain close ties to Russia, so while I doubt they will join up, they WILL ally with them. Same thing in the end.

In the end, 5 will literally merge together, one will be a seperate ally on paper, three will never join, two will require some persuasion, and two are kinda neutral. Then there is Serbia.
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Rhadamanthus
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Interesting analysis Kas. I would add a few things. As I've mentioned to you before in chat, I don't think that the Orange Revolution has any staying power, but its a factor at least for now. If Moldova joined as you suggest, that would allow it to solve its problems with Russian-leaning Transdnistria. However, it might be worth considering what effect the possibility of a Romania-Moldova renunion, which gets bandied about now and then, might have.
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Nag Ehgoeg
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The Devil's Advocate

I think your wrong about Uzbekistan: not a chance in hell of joining up. They fear loss of their identity too much. It's convienant now for them to not offend Russia, but with a Union state forming they'd come running to the West for aid. That said, I think you're spot on for Kazakhstan and Turkmenistan.

Georgia - I think - would just be taken. All in one go, three goes at most. And are we talking about the same Shevernadze? I mean a Shevernadze-man might be a lot more friendly to Russia than Saakashvilli... but Diphtheria is friendlier to Russia than Saakashvilli!
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Kasnyia
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Chairman of the Bank
Perhaps your right about the Uzbeks. I still think Georgia will be taken in multiple wars though, or atleast made a puppet before actual annexation.

And RD, I know the OR is only a temporary effect, but how temporary is the current question. Yankuyevich (or however it is you spell his name), will bring Ukraine back to heel. He just has to get rid of ricin-man.
Edited by Kasnyia, Aug 16 2008, 12:07 PM.
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Nag Ehgoeg
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Yeah I can see Georgia being made a puppet... but who's to stop Russia just taking Georgia in one or two wars? I don't see the logic behind taking it a slice at a time.
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Kasnyia
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They need to justify it to their people. The Russian Government is autocratic, but not nearly as much as the Soviet Union was (yet). Thus, they have to do like America does and make some sort of justification, hence why they waited for Saakashvili to make a mistake.
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