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Eh no big deal; WE ARE ALL GOING TO DIE
Topic Started: Aug 8 2008, 11:15 AM (928 Views)
Paradise
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Romanus Diogenes
Aug 8 2008, 02:06 PM
Oh god... if Iran, Saudia Arabia, Azerbaijan and and some of the other surrounding countries would decide to "liberate" Georgia from Russia... life would be so much more hilarious.
Why would they want to "liberate" Georgia? Georgia is not a muslim country.
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Rhadamanthus
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Paradise
Aug 9 2008, 02:26 PM
Romanus Diogenes
Aug 8 2008, 02:06 PM
Oh god... if Iran, Saudia Arabia, Azerbaijan and and some of the other surrounding countries would decide to "liberate" Georgia from Russia... life would be so much more hilarious.
Why would they want to "liberate" Georgia? Georgia is not a muslim country.
Paradise, it was a reference to the Georgian war in our forum, where the Middle Eastern countries decided to "liberate" Georgia from Russia.
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Paradise
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Romanus Diogenes
Aug 9 2008, 02:27 PM
Paradise
Aug 9 2008, 02:26 PM
Romanus Diogenes
Aug 8 2008, 02:06 PM
Oh god... if Iran, Saudia Arabia, Azerbaijan and and some of the other surrounding countries would decide to "liberate" Georgia from Russia... life would be so much more hilarious.
Why would they want to "liberate" Georgia? Georgia is not a muslim country.
Paradise, it was a reference to the Georgian war in our forum, where the Middle Eastern countries decided to "liberate" Georgia from Russia.
Oh :shy:
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Kasnyia
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Ulgania
Aug 9 2008, 09:42 AM
Kasnyia
Aug 9 2008, 01:33 AM
An Indian military coup is an oxymoron.
How so? India has a very professional military IRL. They're pretty much always on alert because of the threat Pakistan has posed in the past, and while they wouldn't be able to invade China, they sure as hell could repel an invasion
Thats why its an oxymoron. They're so professional, they won't ever launch a coup. They're the exact opposite of the Pakistani Army, which is very very unprofessional.
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Sedulius
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All nukes of the former-Soviet Union were transferred to Russia long ago.

2000 people have died within the first two days of this war.

Georgia is done for pretty soon if diplomacy doesn't come through. Russia's will do the same thing to Belarus soon if you've been studying their moves. They probably will never be able to do the same to Ukraine, but when they try to, THEN start worrying about WWIII.

A year or so ago, 4 Russian officers were arrested in Georgia for espionage. Russia demanded them back, got them back, and then cut off all transportation and trade between the two countries. Also, several Georgian stores, restaurants, and other businesses were closed down in Moscow and other cities by the government.

Also a year or so ago, Putin tried to negotiate with the Belorussian president (really a dictator) to unify with Russia. He disagree, Russia cut off oil and natural gas to Belarus. This has crippled Belarus quite badly as that was their main supply. They aren't expected to resist Russia's demands much longer.

All of this is pretty messed up, but you can understand why Russia might be doing this, whether the reasons are good or bad.

I hate to say it, but no country cares enough to come to Georgia's aid. This won't escalate into any large war, and it'll probably end within the month. End result will either be a conquered Georgia becoming part of Russia or a Georgia under severe restrictions.

I wish I could say it will be different...
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Kasnyia
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Oh enough gloom and doom. Belarus and Russia have such close ties that, together, they keep trying to formulate a bi-national union state. Albeit, the bureaucracy is making the process take its time, but the two states want it. So don't tell me Russia will invade outright. Hell, if they do invade, it would only be because NATO invaded first, to defend Belarus as the Western bloc attempts to take out Europe's last dictator.

As for the situation in Georgia, likely it will end up Ossetia will finally be reunified under the control of Moscow, which the Ossetians actually want. Abhkazia may do the same thing or merely become even more autonomous/fully independant from Georgia. Georgia will continue to exist, minus a couple of provinces. The only way Georgia would cease to exist is if they were foolish enough to go into total war with Russia (which they aren't, only having Parliament announce the start of a 15-day long state of war, which is a step under a formal war declaration).
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Sedulius
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Understood. Wasn't saying Russia would invade Belarus though. It's being forced to do so politically. As you say, the people want it, but the people in power in Belarus don't. I'd say it would be good for the unity to happen.
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Anti
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 *  *  *  *  *
New Harumf
Aug 9 2008, 08:56 AM
Nag Ehgoeg
Aug 9 2008, 03:57 AM
So... uh... whether or not Georgia was in the wrong... is anyone else worried about a nuclear warmachine that's had steadily deterioating relations with the US going to war with one of it's allies?

I mean... logic kinda says that this won't escalate. That Russia's made their point and diplomacy will have this wrapped up within the week. But then, they said the same thing about both world wars...
Yes, where is Neville Chamberlain when you need him??
Oh ugh.
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Quaon
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You know, I just remember something. I predicted the Georgian War. To the date.

Wednesday, I had been floating around a sci-fi idea based on the LHC (huge particle accelerator in Switzerland). I was under the impression that the LHC was to be fired on the 8th of August, which turns out to be untrue. So, the story was going to begin with a newscaster announcing that Russia had invaded Abzakia (sp), on the same day as something similar to the LHC was fired. I just recalled the idea a few minutes ago...

This is slightly creepy.
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The CNNP
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Quaon
Aug 9 2008, 02:18 PM
If you go back a few generations, I'm Georgian. In fact, my great-great grandmother grew up in the same town as Stalin (Gori), and in fact knew him. In addition to this, I am American. I have no reason to sympathize with the Russians (well...actually...maybe some Georgian pogroms might be reason to...). But-this is completely Georgia's fault. Completely and utterly Georgia's fault. Their President is an idiot.

I know how it feels to have loyalties tested. When Sicily was invaded by the Italian Army back in the 1990's I was torn over the issue. On my other half of the family, some of my relatives were Italians and of course Sicilians.

I hope for your family still residing there that peace will come quickly but with Israel and the US backing teh Georgian President against Russia, there's no telling how this will end.
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Quaon
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The CNNP
Aug 9 2008, 09:13 PM
Quaon
Aug 9 2008, 02:18 PM
If you go back a few generations, I'm Georgian. In fact, my great-great grandmother grew up in the same town as Stalin (Gori), and in fact knew him. In addition to this, I am American. I have no reason to sympathize with the Russians (well...actually...maybe some Georgian pogroms might be reason to...). But-this is completely Georgia's fault. Completely and utterly Georgia's fault. Their President is an idiot.

I know how it feels to have loyalties tested. When Sicily was invaded by the Italian Army back in the 1990's I was torn over the issue. On my other half of the family, some of my relatives were Italians and of course Sicilians.

I hope for your family still residing there that peace will come quickly but with Israel and the US backing teh Georgian President against Russia, there's no telling how this will end.
I'm not having my loyalties questioned. I feel no ancestral links to Georgia. Any of my family that might once have lived there is either in the US or Argentina. In fact, if anything, I have negative feelings towards Georgia. For example, in Gori, there was a synagogue that my family belonged to, and it had an Orthodox Church across the street. On Easter Sunday, the Georgians poured out of the Orthodox Church, shouting "CHRIST KILLERS!" and burned down the Synagogue and everyone in it (fortunately, it wasn't the Sabbath so not too many people were there). The Georgian President caused this war; I can hardly blame the Russians for responding to them in kind.

I really don't feel much in the way of pride for my ancestry at all, to be honest. I have no special regards for Russia, Hungary, Georgia, Sicily or the rest of Italy. I have pride in the United States, and that's enough for me.
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Sedulius
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Quaon
Aug 9 2008, 08:32 PM
You know, I just remember something. I predicted the Georgian War. To the date.

Wednesday, I had been floating around a sci-fi idea based on the LHC (huge particle accelerator in Switzerland). I was under the impression that the LHC was to be fired on the 8th of August, which turns out to be untrue. So, the story was going to begin with a newscaster announcing that Russia had invaded Abzakia (sp), on the same day as something similar to the LHC was fired. I just recalled the idea a few minutes ago...

This is slightly creepy.
Quaon: Kinda goes with what I was saying earlier. ^^ I don't like predicting things right...

People worried: why are we so afraid of Russia? I'm not. I like Russia. Sure, it's perhaps the last imperialistic state on Earth, but that's my ideology. Russia is not the bad guy anymore, nor do I really think they ever were even as the Soviet Union. It's all been a bunch of hype left over from the last few generations. (Yes I know millions of people died due to Stalin and other things but keep reading...)

Russia is made up of people, many of them good people, just like you and me. In my opinion, Putin is not a bad guy. I highly respect the man. Maybe from an outsider's point-of-view what Russia is doing is bad, but from inside Russia, it looks like Russia is reclaiming its old lands, which for the Russian people is not a bad thing. Since Putin saved its economy, Russia has no where to go but up.

So, I'm not worried. If anything I'm applauding Russia for its actions.

:lol: Besides, it'll be good having a reborn superpower to oppose China when it becomes one. China already owns one superpower anyways. :lol:
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New Harumf
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Historically speaking, this had to happen. The old Soviet Union broke up (unwillingly) because of a financial meltdown - it couldn't afford to exist anymore, but is anyone surprised that after somewhat righting its financial house it wants to return to its original status? Not me. I always thought it was stupid to rush to make NATO alliences with all these former USSR republics - and I even include the Slovaks, the Czechs and the Poles. Putin has always been a loyal party member (he headed the KGB for God's sake) and I am sure his wants to return Russia to its former sphere of influence.
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Nag Ehgoeg
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To all those not worried: Play Command and Conquer 2: Red Alert.

What do you think Russia is going to do when it reclaims it's old lands?

Russia is a nuclear power.
Russia consistantly opposes the West in UN political matters.
Russia acts friendly towards dictatorship powers.

Now yes, Russains are people. I like Russia (well, more than the States). Great history. Good people.

I have no desire to see the Russian Empire become a hyper-power.

Now if Russia marched on an enclave within it's lands that wanted to 'ceed to Georgia... would people be saying "Russia is completely to blame"? If the US marched on an enclave wanting to ceed to Libya would people say "the US is completely to blame"?

It is not ok for Russia to subvert smaller nations with espionage agents.
It is ok for a nation to defend it's sovereignty.
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Alberto
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They have invaded the territory of the Ottoman Sultanate ? The ancestral Georgia, they are going to pay !

Probably the Russians made this attack also to prevent any Georgian ambition of entrance in the NATO .
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Rhadamanthus
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Nag Ehgoeg
Aug 10 2008, 10:32 AM
To all those not worried: Play Command and Conquer 2: Red Alert.

What do you think Russia is going to do when it reclaims it's old lands?

Russia is a nuclear power.
Russia consistantly opposes the West in UN political matters.
Russia acts friendly towards dictatorship powers.

Now yes, Russains are people. I like Russia (well, more than the States). Great history. Good people.

I have no desire to see the Russian Empire become a hyper-power.

Now if Russia marched on an enclave within it's lands that wanted to 'ceed to Georgia... would people be saying "Russia is completely to blame"? If the US marched on an enclave wanting to ceed to Libya would people say "the US is completely to blame"?

It is not ok for Russia to subvert smaller nations with espionage agents.
It is ok for a nation to defend it's sovereignty.
Maybe Georgia shouldn't get 100% of the blame, but it certainly deserves the bulk of it.

First, Georgia has never governed South Ossetia. South Ossetia has been de facto independent as long as Georgia has been independent and the international status of South Ossetia as part of Georgia is a simple relic of Soviet buearacracy. The Ossetians were declaring their independence while Georgia declared its independence; the result was not Georgian conquest of South Ossetia but a joint Georgian-Ossetian-Russian peacekeeping mission with South Ossetia running itself regardless of its official status. So the Russians have a legal interest in preventing violence in the area, between Georgia and South Ossetia.

Amidst recent tensions, on August 7, the Georgians and Ossetians signed a ceasefire aimed at ending current violence; several hours later the Georgians launch their surprise invasion of South Ossetia, breaking the ceasfire, killing large numbers of Ossetians and peacekeepers, including Russian citizens, and causing a refugee crisis in North Ossetia and other parts of the Russian Federation. Even UN agencies have recognized this refugee situation. I don't see what choice Russia has other than to respond to this blatant provocation.

So my sympathies lean toward the Ossetians and the Russians on this one. It also helps that Russia at least has competant leadership whom I can respect while Saakashvili is total fool. And that Russia called an emergency UNSC session to try to achieve a diplomatic situation in addition to their military one, while the Georgians made no such attempts. But really, I just hope a ceasefire is negotiated quickly. I understand where you are coming from on your POV, but I view this differently.
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Nag Ehgoeg
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:evil: <- My client.
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Kasnyia
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Russia will not become a hyper power. It (along with China of course), will merely end America's age of being a hyper power. The world is beginning to balance again, and this time not in just two groups. I'm all for whats happening right now.

In another half-century, the world will have about five superpowers. America, Europe, Russia, China, and India. Six if you want to include a resusicated Japanese Empire which seems to be on its way teh closer they come to ridding themselves of the 1945 constituition (or more specifically, Article 9 of said document).

The world is becoming balanced again. I welcome it.
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Sedulius
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Is Nag talking about the original Red Alert or about Red Alert 2? I loved the original. Great game. I hated Red Alert 2. Far too silly. Red Alert 3 is going to have armored bears that are air dropped and APCs that can only unload their troop via a man cannon. Extremely silly. But I'm still going to buy it.

Because bears are the number one threat to America.

(Really, I just buy every C&C game cause they're fun, and this new one has stunning graphics.)

Where's the military guy off of Monty Python when you need him. Silly.

Anyways, yes, both sides have done some wrong, but Georgia did a stupid, provocative move that allowed it to be checkmated.

I am completely ready for a Russian superpower. (Honestly, I say they never lost that status. Others argue that they aren't because they don't have the navy to project their force like the US does. Valid argument.) Somebody else has to take some of the burden already. The US needs some rest. Unfortunately, it probably won't get any because of foolish politics.
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Quaon
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Alberto
Aug 10 2008, 02:37 PM
They have invaded the territory of the Ottoman Sultanate ? The ancestral Georgia, they are going to pay !

Probably the Russians made this attack also to prevent any Georgian ambition of entrance in the NATO .
Georgia was never part of the Ottoman Empire.
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Nag Ehgoeg
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Kasnyia
Aug 10 2008, 04:54 PM
Russia will not become a hyper power. It (along with China of course), will merely end America's age of being a hyper power. The world is beginning to balance again, and this time not in just two groups. I'm all for whats happening right now.

In another half-century, the world will have about five superpowers. America, Europe, Russia, China, and India. Six if you want to include a resusicated Japanese Empire which seems to be on its way teh closer they come to ridding themselves of the 1945 constituition (or more specifically, Article 9 of said document).

The world is becoming balanced again. I welcome it.
I was using Hyper as being above Super (much like Super was coined as the term for above the previously Great powers) not Hyper as being the actual definition of a Hyper power.

By definition, you can only have one Hyperpower - and the US is not one (not when other nations have nukes).

China has peaked. But if they (*sigh* I dislike calling ethnic groups I belong to "they" - but it's true) can get over their age old grugde against the Japanese (and if Japan keeps going the way it's going) I could see some kind of Eastern Empire rising.
India still has a little way to go before it peaks. Not that far.

Russia has a very real shot of reclaiming it's glory days and rising to rule the new world.
The US (despite insane foriegn policy and masses of internal problems) is set to be a world power for a long time to come (though how long until it degenerates into something resembling the USSR is anyone's guess).

Europe... there's so much potential in Europe. We really, really could be a hyper-power. In a matter of months. 'Course we won't. The irrelevance of Europe started with the end of the British Empire and since then we've become less and less important. And as time goes on, we're only going to get less and less important as Russia and the US carve us up as extra territories.

There's going to be a status like this in twenty years:

The Super Powers - Russia and the USA in a new cold war.
The Great Powers - The United States of Europe, China, India etc trying to get ahead without angering the Supers.
The Others - Africa will stay as is. The Middle East may have some sense knocked into it or it might not. Those who are irrelevant will remain irrelevant.

[Edit]

The orginal Red Alert. You know, the game that said "without Hitler the USSR would have gone to war with the Europe and the US".
Edited by Nag Ehgoeg, Aug 10 2008, 05:11 PM.
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Sedulius
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YES! That game is one of the best ever made.

It's more or less unpredictable when the US will "fall". It could be in the next decade, it could be two centuries from now. Every great power eventually falls though.

My guess is forty years. I'll be retired in Ireland by then, and hopefully I'll have been a good enough politician back in the US to make some sort of impact.

I look at the EU as the world's greatest hope. I may come to pass that it will have to become a superpower because it will have no choice due to the situation.

We'll see. I just hope I can retire to that peaceful life in Ireland.
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Nag Ehgoeg
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The EU isn't going anywhere any time soon. Nor will it do anything.

It's become the new Switzerland.
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New Harumf
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Kasnyia
Aug 10 2008, 04:54 PM
Russia will not become a hyper power. It (along with China of course), will merely end America's age of being a hyper power. The world is beginning to balance again, and this time not in just two groups. I'm all for whats happening right now.

In another half-century, the world will have about five superpowers. America, Europe, Russia, China, and India. Six if you want to include a resusicated Japanese Empire which seems to be on its way teh closer they come to ridding themselves of the 1945 constituition (or more specifically, Article 9 of said document).

The world is becoming balanced again. I welcome it.
Europe may be an economic power, but it will never have the balls to be a "super power".

The US will get out of the "super power" business sooner than later.

That will leave Russia and China, and we can watch them destroy each other.
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Rhadamanthus
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New Harumf
Aug 10 2008, 06:01 PM
The US will get out of the "super power" business sooner than later.
I await the day. :shy:
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