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State take Fingerprint; Is it right?
Topic Started: Jul 16 2008, 09:17 AM (765 Views)
Paradise
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Resident bureaucrat

Scarcity is true and will always be true:

- Earth has only a limited amount of natural resources (now when we will be able to colonize other planets, that will be another story);
- Earth can only produce a limited amount of energy;
- There is a limited amount of workers in the workforce;
- There is a limited amount of capital available for production.

"Technocracy" may only happen when:
- we begin colonizing other planets for resources;
- we find a way to produce limitless energy;
- all production is made by robots.
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Union
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Pyrenees Republic
Scarcity is fact. So is overabundance. Here is an example:

There is, technically, a limited amount of air. It does have a scarcity. You can run out of air.

Try selling air on the market.

The Technical Institute calculated that all work in the United States in 1929, an age far from the technology levels of today, could be done:

Quote:
 
The period of work required of each individual, once the reconstruction following the transition from the old system to the new is complete, need be no longer than about 4 hours per day, 164 days per year, from the ages Of 25 to 45

http://www.technocracy.ca/simp/man-hours-distribution.html [these are the calculations]


And go down from there, if the most effecient production lines were adopted universally.

Today, technocrats advocate continued research into ultimately eliminating scarcity, through the manners you listed.

Limitless energy will be possible when we discover the secret of fusion.
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Comrade Queen
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Comrade Bitchqueen
Toussaint
Jul 22 2008, 01:44 AM
In fact, by proportion, I trust people in government thousands of times more than people in the general citizenry.
Your trust is misplaced then. The government is filled with criminals seeking to increase their own personal power. I find that many average citizens are responsible enough to take care of their own lives, even when the crooks in power try their damnedest to make a decent standard of living more difficult to achieve. The average citizen doesn't need a big, corrupt, abusive father of a government to watch over everything he or she does and stifle individuality, free thought and speech. To allow the government to do such is to become a slave, a manipulative plaything to those that would claim to be your masters.

New Harumf said it best with this.

Quote:
 
As to what some of you are talking about, i.e., the righteousness of the state over the individual - I've always had a fear that eventually we might have a generation that actually bought into this, that might actually believe the state can always be right, and it has been my biggest worry about the future, because once we, as a society, buy into this, it's all over, baby! "Logan's Run", "Wild in the Streets", "F. 451", "1984", etc., etc. These are warnings of the shape of things to come.

See, here's the problem I see - you say "If you don't commit a crime, then it makes no difference if they have your fingerprints.", but who defines the crime? The State. Subversion? Treason? Boy, those are subjective, aren't they? Not singing "The Horst Wessel Song" could be treason. Reading "Atlas Shrugged" could be treason. Owning a Bible or Koran could be treason. You seem to think the State would always be logical.

You. Scare. Me.


Oh, and a Technocracy is an unrealistic ideal. There'll never be something such as an "end to scarcity."
Edited by Comrade Queen, Jul 22 2008, 06:04 PM.
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Union
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Pyrenees Republic
It's already possible, and in certain cases already exists.

Would you like to purchase some fresh dirt?
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Comrade Queen
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Comrade Bitchqueen
Oil, anyone? Gold, maybe? How about some dodo feathe--Oh wait.
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Union
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Pyrenees Republic
Algae oil. Artificial gold indistinguishable from the real one.
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Comrade Queen
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Comrade Bitchqueen
Great... I'll wait until they can actually make it happen and it's not science fiction anymore. It likely won't happen in this century at least.

Oh, by the way... did you know we're running out of fish?

Technocracy is a fantasy.
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Union
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Pyrenees Republic
Quote:
 
Almost half of marine creatures caught by fishing fleets are wasted, discarded as extraneous flotsam among the valuable fish.

The study says there's still time to salvage part of ocean life, if governments act swiftly.


So it might.. actually... be ok! We just have to manage our resources, and work to preserve them! Holy shit!

Yes. Wasteful use is accelerating scarcity. Scarcity at this time exists. Scarcity at this time also has the potential to not exist, if policy is adopted with the sole focus on abolishing it.

But that would just about ruin everything. What are we gonna do without crime or poverty? what will people debate? What about the free market?! :rolleyes:
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Comrade Queen
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Comrade Bitchqueen
I've got news for you, but scarcity is likely to exist for centuries regardless of what humans do. We've dug ourselves in a very deep hole in our quest for resources. Very little moves have been made to save the fish.

Your Technocracy got aborted before the second trimester.
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Union
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Pyrenees Republic
80 years ago, it was possible. 80 years from now, it'll be possible again.

We have to actually work at it. The government today doesn't seem to want too.
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Paradise
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Abolishing scarcity? It this like cutting the sky?
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Nag Ehgoeg
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The Devil's Advocate

I dunno.

In 1867 one of the world's best economists took a good look at Britian and Germany and decided that it was possible to re-alocate the wealth of these nations - not in a way that eliminated scarcity, mind you, but in a way that would lead to everyone having a reasonable standard of living by empowering the workforce and dividing labour as would be most efficient rather than serving the Capitalist Class System.

This economic system was adopted in another country fifty years later and proved moderately successful for a total of 74 years governing 293,047,571 people when it finally dissolved. This nation pinoreed space travel - being the first to put a satalite in space, first animal in orbit and first man in space and orbit. Won the most first place medals in seven out of nine Olympic Games. Gave the world 8 world chess champions. And were on the winning side of World War 2 despite suffering from the heaviest fighting.

I do not doubt that it is possible to create a Technocracy in my lifetime (so long as people work towards it). I strongly doubt that it'll turn out any better than Communism, but I think it has potential.
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New Harumf
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Bloodthirsty Unicorn
Paradise
Jul 23 2008, 12:23 AM
Abolishing scarcity? It this like cutting the sky?
If we were actually able to abolish scarcity then your precious government would have to manufacturer it. Hell, it already does - farmers pouring milk on the ground to keep the prices up, etc. etc. etc. Two things cause scarcity, lack of goods and governments. Is food really scarce in Etheopia or does the government refuse to distribute it? How about North Korea's annual drought?? Most shortages today are artificially imposed as a method of control, and THAT is what your all-powerful state is good for, control.
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Filo
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General
Are you sure NH that you are not a socialist? :D :D
I tell you so because my and your ideas are similar...this may also say that I'm a republican... B)

Government may artificially work on scarcity or have not rules about that, allowing to corporations to manage resources and since resources mak money corps manage them to create scarcity to up the price.

The government, the state must controll that economic sistem will be fair and just for any citezen.


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Nag Ehgoeg
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The Devil's Advocate

New Harumf
Jul 23 2008, 07:28 AM
Paradise
Jul 23 2008, 12:23 AM
Abolishing scarcity? It this like cutting the sky?
If we were actually able to abolish scarcity then your precious government would have to manufacturer it. Hell, it already does - farmers pouring milk on the ground to keep the prices up, etc. etc. etc. Two things cause scarcity, lack of goods and governments. Is food really scarce in Etheopia or does the government refuse to distribute it? How about North Korea's annual drought?? Most shortages today are artificially imposed as a method of control, and THAT is what your all-powerful state is good for, control.
Here in the EU, we actually paid farmers to let fields fallow in order to prevent "over-production" of food.

No joke. Starving in Africa. We paid farmers not to use their fields.

We now (for some reason) have a food crisis. In friggen EUROPE! What is this? 1789?

Even as we tap more oil... prices are on the rise. Last year the oil companies made record profits. Oil shares are still a (relatively) good investment (certainly when compared to the banks). And yet prices are at an all time high (and set to rise to $13.57 a gallon by the end of the year). And to top that off, the government wants to add another $0.18 a gallon in TAX!

Eliminating scarcity... will never happen. Paradise is quite right.

But Hispania and NH are dead on about the manufactor of artificial scarcity.
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Filo
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General
Can i make another exemple?

Oranges and lemons...Italy destroys nearly a quarter of his annual production to not allow the prices gone low too much...
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Union
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Pyrenees Republic
And that's the fault of the capitalist, for-profit system - farmers and other business owners lobby government to promote artificial scarcity, and keep prices high.

The reason being that scarcity is a necessity for a capitalist system - if there is an overabundance of a any resource it causes the market to implode, leading to the Great Depression.

If overabundance caused the world economics to collapse in the 1920s, it is certainly possible to achieve today. What we need however, is to begin moving into an economic system ready to deal with overabundance in a way other than destroying what is not necessary. This destruction of resources, severe waste, and artificial scarcities - these were the real monsters of Orwell's 1984 - not, necessarily, the government structure, but how the government acted.
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Nag Ehgoeg
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Hispania
Jul 23 2008, 07:45 AM
If overabundance caused the world economics to collapse in the 1920s, it is certainly possible to achieve today. What we need however, is to begin moving into an economic system ready to deal with overabundance in a way other than destroying what is not necessary. This destruction of resources, severe waste, and artificial scarcities - these were the real monsters of Orwell's 1984 - not, necessarily, the government structure, but how the government acted.
In this, I agree with you. Almost entirely.

But, the simple fact of the matter is this: power corrupts. Those in power currently - and those likely to get in power any time soon - will abuse the Orwellian power you propose to give them.

On the face of things... a benevolent dictator could, indeed, be very good for you, me and America. Much, much better than an elected criminal.

But the sad fact of the matter is, the benevolent dictator is harder to come by than the sober Irishman. And it only takes one tyrant to undo the good of a hundred ideal rulers.
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New Harumf
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Bloodthirsty Unicorn
Nag Ehgoeg
Jul 23 2008, 07:53 AM
Hispania
Jul 23 2008, 07:45 AM
If overabundance caused the world economics to collapse in the 1920s, it is certainly possible to achieve today. What we need however, is to begin moving into an economic system ready to deal with overabundance in a way other than destroying what is not necessary. This destruction of resources, severe waste, and artificial scarcities - these were the real monsters of Orwell's 1984 - not, necessarily, the government structure, but how the government acted.
In this, I agree with you. Almost entirely.

But, the simple fact of the matter is this: power corrupts. Those in power currently - and those likely to get in power any time soon - will abuse the Orwellian power you propose to give them.

On the face of things... a benevolent dictator could, indeed, be very good for you, me and America. Much, much better than an elected criminal.

But the sad fact of the matter is, the benevolent dictator is harder to come by than the sober Irishman. And it only takes one tyrant to undo the good of a hundred ideal rulers.
and the temptation to allow that first tyrant into power, for "security" is very high. Look at history. Scalla, the first Roman tyrant, got in because the senate was fearful of outside invasion, the republic never came back, and Scalla was 71bc!! This is true of every attempt to allow authoritarian control. Face it H, the temptation is too great. Even you would be tempted to live better than others if you were the sole dictator of the state - I know I would.

Government is all about control of the governed, and scarcity is one method of that control. The "people" can do something when a corporation creates artificial scarcity, they can boycot the corporation - lemons priced artificially high? Don't buy lemons for a while, they'll come down. If the government is in control of lemon production, however, a boycot is useless because the government has the resources to keep prices high without having to answer to shareholders.

Although I believe that no government can exist without the consent of the governed, I am very scared when I hear young people like you so willing to give that consent.
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Nag Ehgoeg
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The Devil's Advocate

Don't worry NH, we Illuminati have a plan:

We keep electing idiots into power.

That way, the people stay disenfranchised with the government and fight them at every turn. That's why you got Bush for so long and are going to get Obama next.
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Union
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Pyrenees Republic
Quote:
 
Government is all about control of the governed, and scarcity is one method of that control. The "people" can do something when a corporation creates artificial scarcity, they can boycot the corporation - lemons priced artificially high? Don't buy lemons for a while, they'll come down. If the government is in control of lemon production, however, a boycot is useless because the government has the resources to keep prices high without having to answer to shareholders.


It's not just something simple like lemons. The very staples of life are artificially priced. It is a market-wide phenomenon, encouraged by the government. Corporations do not like to compete. That's why trusts were eventually made illegal. If given a chance, corporations will behave unfairly, and encourage high pricing.

Mind you, in many cases today, artificial scarcity is a necessity, and if we are operating in a capitalist society, I support it. If farm foods sold at the price they COULD be sold at, no one would farm. Granted, a steak would cost you a dollar based on supply/demand, but no one would make a profit, and we'd eventually be without steaks.
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New Harumf
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Bloodthirsty Unicorn
Hispania
Jul 23 2008, 08:58 AM
Quote:
 
Government is all about control of the governed, and scarcity is one method of that control. The "people" can do something when a corporation creates artificial scarcity, they can boycot the corporation - lemons priced artificially high? Don't buy lemons for a while, they'll come down. If the government is in control of lemon production, however, a boycot is useless because the government has the resources to keep prices high without having to answer to shareholders.


It's not just something simple like lemons. The very staples of life are artificially priced. It is a market-wide phenomenon, encouraged by the government. Corporations do not like to compete. That's why trusts were eventually made illegal. If given a chance, corporations will behave unfairly, and encourage high pricing.

Mind you, in many cases today, artificial scarcity is a necessity, and if we are operating in a capitalist society, I support it. If farm foods sold at the price they COULD be sold at, no one would farm. Granted, a steak would cost you a dollar based on supply/demand, but no one would make a profit, and we'd eventually be without steaks.
and when we ran out of steaks, someone would raise beef again. It's called supply and demand, and does a very good job of regulating prices without government intervention. I'm fairly certain it works well.
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Union
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Pyrenees Republic
And yet the cycle of boom-bust continues, limiting human potential in the longterm.

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New Harumf
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Bloodthirsty Unicorn
Hispania
Jul 23 2008, 09:16 AM
And yet the cycle of boom-bust continues, limiting human potential in the longterm.

God, I hope so, having seen some of the results of "human potential" from the last century in Germany, Darfur, The USSR, Cambodia, China, etc, etc, etc. "Human potential" is a double-edged sword, and it can cut both ways. It just seems to cut much deeper in the hands of tyrants!

Oh, and Filo, we are not both socialists, or republicans. We just happen to both respect liberty, freedom and justice. You don't have to be much of anything to do that! :P
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Union
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Pyrenees Republic
It also got us to the moon, developed new energy sources, and gave us a magical electronic web which could be used to communicate with millions. :lol:
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