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State take Fingerprint; Is it right?
Topic Started: Jul 16 2008, 09:17 AM (762 Views)
Filo
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Ok.
I'm the socialist(half comunist tyrant :) ) here, but today i recive a shocking new from the newspaper...

I start from the background...we, Italy i mean, have a "conservative" government(it is otrageouse to any conservative government across the world) lead by Silvio Berlusconi...but this is not the truth...we have a para-fascist party that, with it's votes, take up all the government...obviously i'm talking about Lega Nord(i have heard that Southern League is founded after them...).
In exchange to save himself from trials and judges(that in Italy must be all comunist also if comunism is gone away), Silvio, leaves LN in charge of many thing included the "safety" of italian people.
It's not important that this safety is very near to fascist way to see the thing and hope to protect an "Italianity", that will not exist...so...one of the measures intyroduced by Leghisti ministy is fingerprint registration to Rom children...(Italy have surely truble with Gipsies but i see much trubles with criminal politicians, medicians and other that are destroyng my country and putting it in the 3rd world...look at Naples...wastes come from mafias...but is more easy to talk about rom and gipsies...)

Half Italy(the other half is slowly become, or better, return, fascist) is come up and have asked the ministry to retire the law.

The law is now be present again in front of the chambers...modified in this way...

On the new ID any italian citezen(and what happened to comunitary people living here?) must registrate his fingerprint on it.

I belive that is otrageous to any free citezen to any contry...is...fascist...they are scheduling me as a criminal...when they are the criminals...

What you think about?




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The CNNP
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They are basically, in the English-libertarian tradition, forcing you to prove your innocence before a supposed crime has been committed. It is very similar to what the US is trying to do under the Real ID Act, and the powers we delegate under the sheriffs in the US. When it comes to roadblocks, I have to prove my innocence before driving any further. It is the same principle. Basically, everyone in Italy has to show proof of innocence and it is wrong, but you get what vote for. A lot of these politicians tell you exactly word for word what they plan on doing it is just a matter of listening intently enough to catch it.

Goebbels said it best when he said this,

“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.”

Filo, all I can say is that socialism and fascism both serve one common end and that is YOUR oblivion. Eitherway, you end up on the short end of the stick...no rights, no nothing!
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New Harumf
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Bloodthirsty Unicorn
Well, we've all suspected that most of Europe would slowly drift back toward nationalism eventually, because of the immigration problems you are creating for yourselves, and Italy seems the natural choice to lead the way, considering your history, and it also seems almost predictible that facism would raise its ugly head. I would not surrender my fingerprint to the government voluntarrily, regardless of their claims.
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Paradise
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It won't happen in Canada.

If it was to happen, Canada would become my enemy and the enemy of many Quebecers. That would give us a good reason to secede, by force if necessary.
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The CNNP
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Paradise
Jul 16 2008, 10:11 AM
It won't happen in Canada.

If it was to happen, Canada would become my enemy and the enemy of many Quebecers. That would give us a good reason to secede, by force if necessary.
I wouldn't ever say that, because it probably is. I will freely admit I am NO expert on Canada or of her affairs, but with the SPP that your Prime Minister of late (I believe signed) along with our President and Mexico's former; such a disaster is coming.

Many people throughout history said that same line, and behold...it happened. Ignorance of history provides the breeding ground for such disasters. Which is why I try and do the best I can when teaching history especially the Government Unit. :D
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Filo
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Jul 16 2008, 09:51 AM
Well, we've all suspected that most of Europe would slowly drift back toward nationalism eventually, because of the immigration problems you are creating for yourselves, and Italy seems the natural choice to lead the way, considering your history, and it also seems almost predictible that facism would raise its ugly head. I would not surrender my fingerprint to the government voluntarrily, regardless of their claims.
What i say...but, Goebbles, as CNNP has said, has speak a great truth.
I fear that i should come to live in Canada or Usa if they continue so my(just little) love for my country will been destroyed forever...

The left parties are unusefull.
They are, or Democrazia Cristiana reborn(and not well working) or a desperate band of Comunistes and ex-whonowwhattheyare that know only yell more high that the right(on the other hand right is mass of fascist bastards and thiefs).

Italy need a socialist party as Spaign, France, Germany or Northern Europe...a party cares about people and not only to the ideologies of propaganda...

My mam(that was an hardline comunist, but not sovietic one, our comunism was very better than any other in Europe except for France one) said "I'm Born Democristiana and i wiull die Democristiana"(Because DC have ruled, very bad, this contry for 50 years), but i belive that the Berlusconi turn is worse.
Not much for him but for the autoritharian drift my country is taking.

Today the Gipsies...tommorow me...

But what i, and the few persons that thing as me, must do?

Flee away?
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NRE
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I'm of the belief that if you've done nothing wrong then you have nothing to fear. Perhaps it's just the inner fascist in me. If my country wants my fingerprint I'll ask what finger.

An Quebec should the secede anyway of the sheer wanting to be their own country if for no other reason. I'd back their secession if I had the money. Of course I'd do a lot of things if I had the money to do them :P :lol:
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Bloodthirsty Unicorn
The United States is full of Germans, Italians, Yugoslavians, etc. that did not want to live under facism, and you, too, would be more than welcome. My mother's family left Germany for political reasons - my father's family left England for political reasons - most Americans left SOMEWHERE for political reasons. It sucks, but socialism is not the answer for everything - they can have their evils and corruption just like any other political system.

NRE, you are sounding a bit of a fool. "He who gives up liberty for security finds he ends up with neither." Make that a motto to live by.
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The CNNP
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Jul 16 2008, 12:08 PM
The United States is full of Germans, Italians, Yugoslavians, etc. that did not want to live under facism, and you, too, would be more than welcome. My mother's family left Germany for political reasons - my father's family left England for political reasons - most Americans left SOMEWHERE for political reasons. It sucks, but socialism is not the answer for everything - they can have their evils and corruption just like any other political system.

NRE, you are sounding a bit of a fool. "He who gives up liberty for security finds he ends up with neither." Make that a motto to live by.
"He who would give up a little bit of freedom for a little bit of security deserves neither the freedom nor the security that was promised." Benjamin Franklin
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New Harumf
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Bloodthirsty Unicorn
The CNNP
Jul 16 2008, 12:12 PM
New Harumf
Jul 16 2008, 12:08 PM
The United States is full of Germans, Italians, Yugoslavians, etc. that did not want to live under facism, and you, too, would be more than welcome. My mother's family left Germany for political reasons - my father's family left England for political reasons - most Americans left SOMEWHERE for political reasons. It sucks, but socialism is not the answer for everything - they can have their evils and corruption just like any other political system.

NRE, you are sounding a bit of a fool. "He who gives up liberty for security finds he ends up with neither." Make that a motto to live by.
"He who would give up a little bit of freedom for a little bit of security deserves neither the freedom nor the security that was promised." Benjamin Franklin
Thank you!
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Rhadamanthus
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They are fingerprinting Gypsy children? That seems pretty racist and more government involvement than I can stomach....
Edited by Rhadamanthus, Jul 16 2008, 01:00 PM.
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Filo
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Guys i know that socialism(a la Espagnole to undestand) is not the answer to all evils on the earth(as social-democrat, as better i must refer to me, i hope so, but i know that is impossible).
Howver a political left that does it work good will stop this aberration before to start...

@RD: I have found this law proposition...nazi styled...
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Bloodthirsty Unicorn
Filo
Jul 16 2008, 01:07 PM
Guys i know that socialism(a la Espagnole to undestand) is not the answer to all evils on the earth(as social-democrat, as better i must refer to me, i hope so, but i know that is impossible).
Howver a political left that does it work good will stop this aberration before to start...

@RD: I have found this law proposition...nazi styled...
RD, finger printing Gypsy children over there (and in Spain) is kinda like fingerprinting convected felons in the US. You won't be making too many mistakes. My gripe is the finger-printing of citizens. Please, finger-print all the law-breakers you want (and the Gypsies are law-breakers by being in the country without documentation) but leave the good, honest citizens alone, even if they are pinko-commie reds like Filo!

If you don't believe me about the gypsie children, ask anyone what you can expect if you go to the caves in Granada to shop among the Gypsies!
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Filo
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I know that Gipsies are and "hard people", but the Government is abusing of his powers, not only fingerprinting me(or any italian citezen) but fingerprinting anyone that is not gilty.
You cannot consider a little boy or a little girl thief because he/she is a gipsy.
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Filo
Jul 16 2008, 01:48 PM
I know that Gipsies are and "hard people", but the Government is abusing of his powers, not only fingerprinting me(or any italian citezen) but fingerprinting anyone that is not gilty.
You cannot consider a little boy or a little girl thief because he/she is a gipsy.
Well.......odds are they are!! I do agree with you, tho - no innocent person should be forced to supply finger prints, or DNA, unless a job, like being a currency counter for the Federal Bank, requires it.
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Nag Ehgoeg
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Jul 16 2008, 02:18 PM
Well.......odds are they are!! I do agree with you, tho - no innocent person should be forced to supply finger prints, or DNA, unless a job, like being a currency counter for the Federal Bank, requires it.
So it's not ok to give up some freedoms for the betterment of society... but it's ok to make a buck?

Now I don't trust the UK government, the EU government, major corperations or the US government with my personal data... mostly because the UK government has trusted American firms with our personal data only for them to lose it.

Sure the innocent man has nothing to fear... except the government raising taxes to pay for this scheme... and the chance of their personal data falling into the wrong hands... and the chance of a tyranical government being voted into office and using the data to oppress the people.

I find it hilarious that people can say "I don't believe in giving my personal data to the government!" but has no problem flying into the US (from Europe) even though that requires filling in two forms and giving your fingerprint and picture!
It's even more funny that people don't want the government taking personal information to keep them safe, but have no problems giving out their data when a company asks for it (or to get a government job in NH's view).

You can say "but it's MY choice" until the cows come home - what the hell do you think happens to your fingerprints once they're given out?

Also, don't know how it works in the US, but in the UK fingerprints and DNA are taken when you are suspected of a crime. You don't even have to be charged. And they stay on record if you're found not guilty. If a government really wanted to force through this kind of ID scheme, they'd just have to charge everyone with terrorist or treason.
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Tristan da Cunha
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I'm as much for periodic waves of mass anti-Gypsy sentiment as the next man, but I am totally against these systematic records maintained by the mechanized bureaucracy. I'm against fingerprints, social security numbers, ID cards, all of it!

Yes, gypsies are pickpockets, no-good con men, and low life circus operators. But that is their very vital role and important component in the tapestry of European society and they should not be culled for their traditional way of life.


New Harumf
 
and the Gypsies are law-breakers by being in the country without documentation


Those are absurd laws. It is the very essence and role of the gypsy to travel the world, disregarding the borders drawn up by kings and presidents. And it is the essence of the world to play host to them (the gypsies).

In more general terms, immigration "crises" are caused by socialistic policies. In Europe, the chief problem posed by poverty-stricken immigrants is that they leech off the milk-rich teat of atheist welfare socialism.

The immigration "crisis" would be entirely resolved by abolishing socialism and subsidies, abolishing passports, abolishing fingerprints, completely opening up the borders, abolishing the whole concept of "illegal immigrants". This goes for the US too, vis a vis Mexican immigration. Let any Mexican come to America who is willing, just don't have them expect to collect socialist benefits or give birth to an American citizen baby on American soil to collect the entitlements for them!

CNNP
 
New Harumf
 
The United States is full of Germans, Italians, Yugoslavians, etc. that did not want to live under facism, and you, too, would be more than welcome. My mother's family left Germany for political reasons - my father's family left England for political reasons - most Americans left SOMEWHERE for political reasons. It sucks, but socialism is not the answer for everything - they can have their evils and corruption just like any other political system.

NRE, you are sounding a bit of a fool. "He who gives up liberty for security finds he ends up with neither." Make that a motto to live by.

"He who would give up a little bit of freedom for a little bit of security deserves neither the freedom nor the security that was promised." Benjamin Franklin

One of Ben Franklin's more clumsy quotations.

NH's variation is much better!

Who besides God can say what we deserve? I use the term "God" here in a metaphorical sense. What I mean is - rarely is there a human who knows what humans deserve, and certainly it cannot be summarized in a pithy statement. It would seem that in this evil Age all the wise men are passed!
Edited by Tristan da Cunha, Jul 16 2008, 06:51 PM.
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Comrade Queen
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I distrust anything that infringes personal privacy. I even dislike having a SSN. Give these fascists the finger, Filo. They're trying their damnedest to conquer the world, and you need to remember... like everyone needs to remember, that there's more of us than there are of them.
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Nag Ehgoeg
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Scythirus
Jul 16 2008, 07:26 PM
They're trying their damnedest to conquer the world, and you need to remember... like everyone needs to remember, that there's more of us than there are of them.
... but they have all the guns. :rolleyes:
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Filo
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Oh Italy have periodic time of Xenophobia...90' were anti-albanians, first years of 2000 angainst chinese, after 2001 against arabs, now against Gipsies and...romanians...
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Bloodthirsty Unicorn
Having partied with some Romanian lads in Amsterdam, I kinda understand why - however, they will do ANYTHING for a dollar or two! ;) :evil:

TC, good point on imigration, I agree with you wholeheartedly, but when you already have a large socialist teat for imigrants to suck, you will have trouble.

Nag - they don't have ALL the guns, and if they do in Europe, well, that is your own fault. Facist governments always sweep up the guns of the citizens for just this reason.
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Nag Ehgoeg
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The Devil's Advocate

Ok, you take your citizens milita against the US army. This I gotta see.
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Bloodthirsty Unicorn
Nag Ehgoeg
Jul 17 2008, 08:56 AM
Ok, you take your citizens milita against the US army. This I gotta see.
Well, we took our citizen's militia against the British army once and did pretty good! :lol:
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Comrade Queen
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Especially when you consider the fact that the British Army was suppose to have been the best in the world.
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Rhadamanthus
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I suspect that their are plenty of rogue states and international arms dealers who might be willing to supploy patriotic citizens' militias for the right price. (All hypothetical of course)
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