America

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America
Topic Started: Apr 29 2008, 02:18 PM (968 Views)
Sedulius	May 1 2008, 04:38 PM Post #51
Field Marshal Posts: 4,727 Group: Members Member #427 Joined: March 29, 2008	bangs head on desk I don't have time to respond to all this. U.S. is over 8 trillion in debt. The economy won't last. Poor people are dying. Rich people are profiting. America right now sucks. Some one needs to swoop in and save it, or else the Dream will be dead soon enough. Don't be blinded by money. Why I can't respond in more detail: I'm a bit worried because my college seems to be threatening to evict me because apparently the Army was supposed to be paying for me, but they didn't and they're really getting on the college's back for it. I paid for everything cash and had no idea the Army was supposed to pay anymore than they already did (I certainly haven't been getting anymore money). Now I get the threat that police will come confiscate my college ID and tags if I don't go to a meeting tomorrow. So I'm just a little bit worried and confused. Does that sound like freedom? Yeah, needless to say I might not be on for a while cause I need to deal with this.



Menhad	May 1 2008, 05:00 PM Post #52
ET2(IDW) Posts: 2,681 Group: Veterans Member #143 Joined: May 22, 2005	The second you join the serivce the government OWNS you. G.I. stands for government issue, and you can be fined for defacing government property if you get a tattoo while in the service. I don't give an f if my spelling is off, I just came from football pratice, where I vomited and got about 3 blisters on each foot. And my back is killing me and my left nut feels like it is going to exploded.



Catholic Europe	May 1 2008, 05:21 PM Post #53
Spammer Posts: 9,612 Group: Members Member #4 Joined: December 24, 2003	Oh, lovely details Menhad! :wacko:



lebowski2123	May 1 2008, 05:37 PM Post #54
Resident? Posts: 1,535 Group: Members Member #257 Joined: July 22, 2006	Well believe me when I say that I am not a huge fan of the welfare system, social security and medicare included, but I do draw the line between limited programs such as these and universal nationalized healthcare. EDIT: Also, in response to this Quote: The economy won't last. Poor people are dying. Rich people are profiting. America right now sucks. The economy will last because this is still a capitalist society, although the liberals are trying to stamp it out in favor of socialism. For instance, this recession is the product of more media hype then actual economic reality. The market has ups, and the market has downs. The cycle of the American economy will fix itself, and no more federal government involvement (it's already far to big in my opinion) will do any good. In a capitalist society there will always be rich and poor. The rich are, in general, making money because of efforts on their part. The poor are dying because, in general, they fail to provide for themselves and instead sit around waiting for government intervention on their behalf. The American dream is less accessible then it once was, but it is still very present.



Catholic Europe	May 1 2008, 06:32 PM Post #55
Spammer Posts: 9,612 Group: Members Member #4 Joined: December 24, 2003	Another example of why I don't like America/Americans.



Sedulius	May 1 2008, 06:35 PM Post #56
Field Marshal Posts: 4,727 Group: Members Member #427 Joined: March 29, 2008	Menhad May 1 2008, 05:00 PM The second you join the serivce the government OWNS you. G.I. stands for government issue, and you can be fined for defacing government property if you get a tattoo while in the service. I don't give an f if my spelling is off, I just came from football pratice, where I vomited and got about 3 blisters on each foot. And my back is killing me and my left nut feels like it is going to exploded. The point is I'm not in the army. I had one waiver from ROTC for one semester. ROTC denied me anymore for not showing up to PT. Now I'm being threatened with eviction by police (which by the way would be completely illegal and I shouldn't have been threatened in the first place) because the Army supposedly is supposed to pay me.



Sedulius	May 1 2008, 06:39 PM Post #57
Field Marshal Posts: 4,727 Group: Members Member #427 Joined: March 29, 2008	lebowski2123 May 1 2008, 05:37 PM Well believe me when I say that I am not a huge fan of the welfare system, social security and medicare included, but I do draw the line between limited programs such as these and universal nationalized healthcare. EDIT: Also, in response to this Quote: The economy won't last. Poor people are dying. Rich people are profiting. America right now sucks. The economy will last because this is still a capitalist society, although the liberals are trying to stamp it out in favor of socialism. For instance, this recession is the product of more media hype then actual economic reality. The market has ups, and the market has downs. The cycle of the American economy will fix itself, and no more federal government involvement (it's already far to big in my opinion) will do any good. In a capitalist society there will always be rich and poor. The rich are, in general, making money because of efforts on their part. The poor are dying because, in general, they fail to provide for themselves and instead sit around waiting for government intervention on their behalf. The American dream is less accessible then it once was, but it is still very present. And that is just a heartless way to look at things. No sympathy. Have you been in poverty? Do you know how hard it is to get out? And don't say they shouldn't have gotten into it in the first place, because these days they're born into it. I know this is commie, but I say down with the superrich. It would only take confiscating money from these damned celebrities that corrupt our society anyways to get everyone out of poverty. And I don't see how the economy will last. That's just denying the facts right in front of everyone's faces. This country is dying and action needs to be taken now.



Sedulius	May 1 2008, 06:40 PM Post #58
Field Marshal Posts: 4,727 Group: Members Member #427 Joined: March 29, 2008	Catholic Europe May 1 2008, 06:32 PM Another example of why I don't like America/Americans. Sorry for so many posts, but couldn't have said it better CE.



Paradise	May 1 2008, 06:43 PM Post #59
Resident bureaucrat Posts: 2,268 Group: Admin Member #1 Joined: December 23, 2003	lebowski2123 May 1 2008, 05:37 PM The poor are dying because, in general, they fail to provide for themselves and instead sit around waiting for government intervention on their behalf. This is not true. Just ask Scythirus.



Union	May 1 2008, 07:04 PM Post #60
Pyrenees Republic Posts: 3,219 Group: Forum Mods Member #307 Joined: December 27, 2006	The poor in America are better off than many of the middle-class in less fortunate states. 99% of Americans have a television. 77% have access to the internet on a regular basis. More than that own a car. Fewer than 1% are homeless.



Quaon	May 1 2008, 07:16 PM Post #61
A Prince Amoung Men-Shoot First and Ask Questions Later Posts: 8,837 Group: Forum Mods Member #209 Joined: January 11, 2006	The US is not going to collapse. Our capitalist system has been in place for years. A recession is not going to cause our economy to collapse; it will do just what it says it does; it will make the economy go into a recession. Within a few years the economy will be normalized. The US is not going to fall apart.



Rhadamanthus	May 1 2008, 07:19 PM Post #62
Legitimist Posts: 12,945 Group: Admin Member #19 Joined: January 13, 2004	Quaon May 1 2008, 07:16 PM The US is not going to collapse. Our capitalist system has been in place for years. A recession is not going to cause our economy to collapse; it will do just what it says it does; it will make the economy go into a recession. Within a few years the economy will be normalized. The US is not going to fall apart. I expect to outlive the United States.



Tristan da Cunha	May 1 2008, 07:19 PM Post #63
Science and Industry Posts: 6,792 Group: Veterans Member #86 Joined: November 1, 2004	Siadhail May 1 2008, 06:39 PM lebowski2123 May 1 2008, 05:37 PM Well believe me when I say that I am not a huge fan of the welfare system, social security and medicare included, but I do draw the line between limited programs such as these and universal nationalized healthcare. EDIT: Also, in response to this Quote: The economy won't last. Poor people are dying. Rich people are profiting. America right now sucks. The economy will last because this is still a capitalist society, although the liberals are trying to stamp it out in favor of socialism. For instance, this recession is the product of more media hype then actual economic reality. The market has ups, and the market has downs. The cycle of the American economy will fix itself, and no more federal government involvement (it's already far to big in my opinion) will do any good. In a capitalist society there will always be rich and poor. The rich are, in general, making money because of efforts on their part. The poor are dying because, in general, they fail to provide for themselves and instead sit around waiting for government intervention on their behalf. The American dream is less accessible then it once was, but it is still very present. And that is just a heartless way to look at things. No sympathy. Have you been in poverty? Do you know how hard it is to get out? And don't say they shouldn't have gotten into it in the first place, because these days they're born into it. I know this is commie, but I say down with the superrich. It would only take confiscating money from these damned celebrities that corrupt our society anyways to get everyone out of poverty. And I don't see how the economy will last. That's just denying the facts right in front of everyone's faces. This country is dying and action needs to be taken now. The problem is not only the US is dying, other countries are also on the precipice. The current economic downturn in the US is unlike anything seen before, with the possible exception of the Great Depression. In most instances, when there is a recession in the US, other regions of the world are booming so any economic hardship the US experiences will only be temporary, since in the long run the US can be pulled out of its funk by other countries' economic activities. Observe the US and Europe recession occurring simultaneously as Japan, Korea, and Taiwan were booming in the late 70s and 80s. Likewise, normally if some other country is having difficulty while the US is booming, the American economy will eventually stimulate the depressed countries and pull them back together. Observe the Asian recession occuring at the same time as the US and Europe boom in the late 90s. But this time around, no part of the world has a good economic forecast. No part of the world will be able to pull any other part out of regional recessions, because today the problems - credit and currency crises, environmental catastrophes, food shortages, civil distrubances, inflation - are fundamental and afflict every country, every region, and every continent, and cannot be addressed by any easy or obvious solution whatsoever.



Sedulius	May 1 2008, 08:43 PM Post #64
Field Marshal Posts: 4,727 Group: Members Member #427 Joined: March 29, 2008	Hispania May 1 2008, 07:04 PM The poor in America are better off than many of the middle-class in less fortunate states. 99% of Americans have a television. 77% have access to the internet on a regular basis. More than that own a car. Fewer than 1% are homeless. I keep on wondering why people say "the poor are better off here". You would not be saying that if you were poor.



Sedulius	May 1 2008, 08:46 PM Post #65
Field Marshal Posts: 4,727 Group: Members Member #427 Joined: March 29, 2008	Quaon May 1 2008, 07:16 PM The US is not going to collapse. Our capitalist system has been in place for years. A recession is not going to cause our economy to collapse; it will do just what it says it does; it will make the economy go into a recession. Within a few years the economy will be normalized. The US is not going to fall apart. And how will the economy be normalized? There is no real plan, because the economy has never actually been in this situation before. No one knows how to fix the economy, they can only have theories. If people keep on going with "Oh the economy will be fine," then nothing will be done and it will fall. People need to face that the US is on the brink of falling so we can all be on the same page and do something about it.



lebowski2123	May 1 2008, 08:55 PM Post #66
Resident? Posts: 1,535 Group: Members Member #257 Joined: July 22, 2006	Siadhail May 1 2008, 08:46 PM Quaon May 1 2008, 07:16 PM The US is not going to collapse. Our capitalist system has been in place for years. A recession is not going to cause our economy to collapse; it will do just what it says it does; it will make the economy go into a recession. Within a few years the economy will be normalized. The US is not going to fall apart. And how will the economy be normalized? There is no real plan, because the economy has never actually been in this situation before. No one knows how to fix the economy, they can only have theories. If people keep on going with "Oh the economy will be fine," then nothing will be done and it will fall. People need to face that the US is on the brink of falling so we can all be on the same page and do something about it. Recession has happened before, and although TC eloquently phrased some differences between previous downturns and the current one, I am still confident that it will strengthen itself out, just as it always has. Why does the economy need fixing? Because we're going through a recession? If that's the case you need to study your US history a little better, because you'll find that economic panic and recession are fairly consistent events. How can the majority of people in poverty not exit? Because the rich are keeping them down? Please, you betray your politics in the way you talk about income redistribution and take the side of the poor. The poor are better off here, for the reasons mentioned by Menhad as well as due to our economic system. Where is the incentive to advance in society in a welfare state? It is absent. In a capitalist society such as America's, the poor have both the motivation and opportunity to exit poverty in one generation. I do agree that economic theory does need to change in a couple of key ways, but I think that to propose an overhaul of the system is shortsighted and spoiled, the product of sensationalist media and an ignorant populace. The system needs to be regulated, not altered. Still, the American ideal of growth equaling prosperity does need to change in today's world of increasingly finite land and resources.



East Anarx	May 1 2008, 09:11 PM Post #67
Anarchitect Posts: 4,788 Group: Multi Member #210 Joined: January 16, 2006	You keep referring to America as having a capitalist system. America has a mixed economy, the government interferes an enormous amount in not only the social spectrum, but the economic one as well. It's not having the capitalist aspect to our mixed system that makes it difficult for the poor to improve themselves, but having the socialist aspect. The US redistributes just about as much wealth as European socialist countries do, they just give much more of it to the already rich than they do to the poor. This incredibly fascistic, but equally socialistic aspect to the American economic system is commonly misinterpreted as a problem with our supposedly "capitalist" approach. Using violence and the threat thereof to redistribute a rich person's rightfully gained wealth, (through the thievery of taxation,) to less fortunate people is just as bad as taking everyone's wealth almost equally, (through inflation of the common money supply, (which coincidentally is also a major cause of the coming economic crisis,)) and giving it to a few powerful people, (major corporations, banks, the government, etc.) The US does way too much of both, (but especially of the second.)



Paradise	May 1 2008, 09:17 PM Post #68
Resident bureaucrat Posts: 2,268 Group: Admin Member #1 Joined: December 23, 2003	Esternarx May 1 2008, 09:11 PM The US redistributes just about as much wealth as European socialist countries do, they just give much more of it to the already rich than they do to the poor. This incredibly fascistic, but equally socialistic aspect to the American economic system is commonly misinterpreted as a problem with our supposedly "capitalist" approach. This sounds like Paradise's economic system :lol:



lebowski2123	May 1 2008, 09:22 PM Post #69
Resident? Posts: 1,535 Group: Members Member #257 Joined: July 22, 2006	And how is it that the government steals from the masses and gives to the rich? As far as the economy is concerned, we operate on a fundamentally and idealistically capitalist system, which is why I have referred to it as such, but I would be a fool to think that we operate on a truly capitalist system. I do find it hard to believe that Quote: The US redistributes just about as much wealth as European socialist countries do but obviously I'm a little biased towards the group which would doubt such a statement :rolleyes: .



Rhadamanthus	May 1 2008, 09:25 PM Post #70
Legitimist Posts: 12,945 Group: Admin Member #19 Joined: January 13, 2004	lebowski2123 May 1 2008, 09:22 PM And how is it that the government steals from the masses and gives to the rich? As far as the economy is concerned, we operate on a fundamentally and idealistically capitalist system, which is why I have referred to it as such, but I would be a fool to think that we operate on a truly capitalist system. I do find it hard to believe that Quote: The US redistributes just about as much wealth as European socialist countries do but obviously I'm a little biased towards the group which would doubt such a statement :rolleyes: . Ever heard the phrase corporate welfare? There is nothing "idealistic" about our system.



Sedulius	May 1 2008, 10:29 PM Post #71
Field Marshal Posts: 4,727 Group: Members Member #427 Joined: March 29, 2008	lebowski2123 May 1 2008, 08:55 PM Siadhail May 1 2008, 08:46 PM Quaon May 1 2008, 07:16 PM The US is not going to collapse. Our capitalist system has been in place for years. A recession is not going to cause our economy to collapse; it will do just what it says it does; it will make the economy go into a recession. Within a few years the economy will be normalized. The US is not going to fall apart. And how will the economy be normalized? There is no real plan, because the economy has never actually been in this situation before. No one knows how to fix the economy, they can only have theories. If people keep on going with "Oh the economy will be fine," then nothing will be done and it will fall. People need to face that the US is on the brink of falling so we can all be on the same page and do something about it. Recession has happened before, and although TC eloquently phrased some differences between previous downturns and the current one, I am still confident that it will strengthen itself out, just as it always has. Why does the economy need fixing? Because we're going through a recession? If that's the case you need to study your US history a little better, because you'll find that economic panic and recession are fairly consistent events. How can the majority of people in poverty not exit? Because the rich are keeping them down? Please, you betray your politics in the way you talk about income redistribution and take the side of the poor. The poor are better off here, for the reasons mentioned by Menhad as well as due to our economic system. Where is the incentive to advance in society in a welfare state? It is absent. In a capitalist society such as America's, the poor have both the motivation and opportunity to exit poverty in one generation. I do agree that economic theory does need to change in a couple of key ways, but I think that to propose an overhaul of the system is shortsighted and spoiled, the product of sensationalist media and an ignorant populace. The system needs to be regulated, not altered. Still, the American ideal of growth equaling prosperity does need to change in today's world of increasingly finite land and resources. Firstly, I would keep your insult of my historical knowledge and political knowledge to a minimmum. I have more knowledge of history than most Americans have, and I am currently pursuing a degree in political science. I believe I'm more than qualified to argue my points. Secondly, did I say a thing about welfare? People need to start thinking out of the box. I would do things completely differently than you might think. Thirdly, this recession has different qualities that the others do not have, problems that have not had to be solved before. To simply ignore that and say it will be solved is foolish, as I had already stated. Sitting back solves nothing. Something needs to be done.



flumes	May 1 2008, 11:02 PM Post #72
CLEVELAND ROCKS! Posts: 2,429 Group: Veterans Member #142 Joined: May 22, 2005	Siadhail May 1 2008, 09:43 PM Hispania May 1 2008, 07:04 PM The poor in America are better off than many of the middle-class in less fortunate states. 99% of Americans have a television. 77% have access to the internet on a regular basis. More than that own a car. Fewer than 1% are homeless. I keep on wondering why people say "the poor are better off here". You would not be saying that if you were poor. An African would trade places with an American poor person in a heartbeat. This is one of my complaints with America today, people do not realize how good life really is here. All about living standards. "Poor" today is a very location relative word. I have "poor" friends, I know what the differences are between their life and my own. Sure I don't know what it is like to every extent. But I also DO know that they aren't starving to death, or living in complete anarchy. They aren't incapible of living a happy life due to inability to survive. Capitalism always will have winners and losers. Luck (or whatever you want to call it plays a part) but Hard Work is a bigger part. I guess it is fair to say that those who grow up wealthy have a headstart. But those who grow up unwealthy are not stuck that way forever. Everyone here has a chance to better there lives. That is why I love freedom, America, whatever. I can influence what I want to do and where I want to end up to a very great degree. I love the control. As I said before, I could never live somewhere where the majority of the populace was not patriotic. The state of the nation after 9/11 was absolutely amazing. That is what I really want for America. Unity like that. However we find it!! (As long as we don't go commie)



Paradise	May 1 2008, 11:48 PM Post #73
Resident bureaucrat Posts: 2,268 Group: Admin Member #1 Joined: December 23, 2003	The american dream is an illusion. How can you expect a poor guy in the US, who was raised with a "survival" mentality, to increase his quality of life? It is nearly impossible. You should ask Scythirus... Self-made men (in the US at least) are one in a million. The american dream may become easier to realize with an accessible education system, but as far as I know this is not the case actually in the United States. One of my oldest friend (we became friends in 1st grade!) comes from a very poor family of Rimouski. After secondary school, he left to Quebec City and began working there at minimum wage while doing a B.A.A. at Laval University (a semester in Quebec is about CAN$1500, everyone can pay that). Three years later, he had his degree and moved to Montreal. Last time I heard from him he had just completed his C.F.A. title and was working as a financial analyst, earning about CAN$100,000 per year. Sure he is not millionaire yet, but just watch him... He's only 25 years old and he makes more money than both his parents combined income! If my friend had lived in the US, he couldn't have afforded University. He would have probably been stuck as a waiter or something else. There is not much hope for a poor in the US. But of course, this is not my problem. As I said earlier, my biggest concerns with the US are the death penalty and their arrogant economic protectionism.



New Harumf	May 2 2008, 08:31 AM Post #74
Bloodthirsty Unicorn Posts: 9,638 Group: Forum Mods Member #177 Joined: October 8, 2005	Ressession is not the problem. The value of the dollar against other currencies is the problem.



Sedulius	May 2 2008, 11:33 AM Post #75
Field Marshal Posts: 4,727 Group: Members Member #427 Joined: March 29, 2008	New Harumf May 2 2008, 08:31 AM Ressession is not the problem. The value of the dollar against other currencies is the problem. Indeed, but that is only one of the many problems. Recession has been caused by them, and it is only the start of things if nothing is done. I'll give more detail when I'm not busy.


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