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| The Triumph of Orthodoxy | |
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| Topic Started: Feb 10 2008, 10:43 PM (1,797 Views) | |
| Kasnyia | Mar 29 2008, 05:34 PM Post #101 |
Chairman of the Bank
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"My, my, you must have such large mouths to eat your fruits whole. Something else you share with ancient Sodom..." Michael muttered. Then louder... "You explain to me why you refuse to deal with this issue by issue and are instead hasty to put in place a barely discussed document and then, if I feel it worth my time to talk to the false king, I will explain to you the obviousness of Alexanderhaven's importance." |
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| Union | Mar 29 2008, 06:16 PM Post #102 |
Pyrenees Republic
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"Hispania was merely asserting her support for the current document. Whether you vote for or against it is really quite immaterial. Meanwhile, I will spare you the embarrasment of having to devise some tale for why Alexanderhaven is so important, and simply withdraw the question." |
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| Kasnyia | Mar 29 2008, 06:22 PM Post #103 |
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Chairman of the Bank
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"Oh I do not think you would hesitate to save any embarrassment of myself. Your feeble excuse to save your own face has been noted. It is amusing you feel that there should be no talk of schism, but some how make a distinction between 'important' and 'unimportant' Orthodox states clearly with the intention to wish harm among the Alexanderhavenian people who fear being abandoned to the pagan hordes. All to keep me from speaking. Such self-serving and unbecoming acts..." "And if you feel a vote is immaterial, then there is no need for this document at all. If votes are immaterial, then I say all desicions are made by the Tsar in all things, constituition be damned." |
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| Union | Mar 29 2008, 06:33 PM Post #104 |
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Pyrenees Republic
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"I will reiterate that I never called Alexanderhaven unimportant in anyway, nor did I continue this sensless bickering. Rather, you directly violated the order of a superior in your mindless attempt to pick a second fight by attacking the opinion of the Kingdom of Hispania. It is you that has avoided speaking of the issue at hand, and continued the childish argument that had already been finished. It is you who has called for dividing the Church, and you who have called this treaty immaterial. It is almost certainly you, while by far the weakest military power here, that is most certain to provoke conflict in the Middle East, as your own words show, and I will gladly, readily, and quickly say this Michael, I do not like you, and I fear for your people should King Tobias continue to retain you. You have shown time and time again, Archbishop, to be a fundamentalist radical that readily abandons the values of Christ for your own agenda. Your refusal to let matters lie will be the death of you, one day, and I for one will not shed a single tear when that day comes. You have insulted myself, my people, and my allies. You have disgraced your country, and your delusions of grandeur will be the undoing of this organization. You have refused to present solutions to problems only you see, and your manner, your words, and your adittude is jeapordizing everything we have worked for. You will silence yourself at once. Your trite opinions are no longer my concern, nor should they be the concern of anyone else here. If King Tobias has something to say, I will gladly listen to him, but you, Archbishop, are a shame to the King, and the Orthodox faith, and not worth even one more minute of my time. I have served the Roman Empire dutifully. I led her fleets, and governed her lands. You, Archbishop, have accomplished no such thing. You, Archbishop, arose to your position through un-Christian means, and you, Archbishop, are a disgrace. Patriarch. This man does not desire intellectual debate, and will only continue to disrupt this meeting. King Tobias is here, and fully able to represent Alexanderhaven in the proceedings. I would like to petition to remove the Archbishop from this room at once. This is a critical period in Roman history, and this antagonism must be stopped." |
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| Kasnyia | Mar 29 2008, 07:08 PM Post #105 |
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Chairman of the Bank
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In reference to the arguement, you brought it back up again. I merely answered directly the question of His Eminence, though I had called for others to go one at a time with issues where as you have attempted to get the entirety of the document hastily passed only so that it would suit your own nation's interests and no one elses. So to say I have avoided the issue is a fallacy on your part. Nor did I call to divide the church, merely create two empires, much like it was in the days of old. Both would be answerable to the same church, and I called for it to be a compromise. Alas His Eminence disagreed, so I withdrew the plan. You on the otherhand have asked me directly as to why my nation is important enough to get any assistance. That implies exactly what you wish of my people. You accuse me of genocide and yet you make such sick implications, believing Alexanderhaven should be lost to the hordes. And this treaty is only as worthy as the votes that ratify it. You call my vote immaterial, thus the very treaty would be immaterial in turn. Do not twist my words, poltician, though thats is probably all you are good for these days, having no true responsibility of your own, so I guess I could forgive such base accusations. As for Alexanderhaven's military capabilities, you have just stated what makes, in your eyes and likely in the eyes of this treaty that your people created, that only those of military strength may speak. I oppose this Alexanderhaven is both strategically and culturally important, and will not be considered, merely because of its lack of military, somehow less worthy, though the same cannot be said of a secular state of mostly latinist persuasion. Provoke conflict in the middle east? I am attempting to stop it. With significant military presence, the pagans and Muhammadans would not be foolish enough to invade, and Alexanderhaven is a quiet state and has not nor will not provoke trouble. Without military presence, there would only be slaughter as the hordes break down our gates. And if you haven't heard the news recently, We are the only remaining Orthodox state. Georgia has been lost to the Muhammadans and the pagans and will no longer be under the Tsar's care. Egypt has been overthrown by polytheists. We are a beacon of light in this otherwise godless land. Your personal dislike will end the lives of my people, oh false king. I could care less, personally, but your judgement must be called into question. And I do so here and now. my King retains me for I have long protected his family and those exiled by the very latinists you apologize for, and I will continue to do so until the scum are no longer a threat. I abandon the views of Christ? I alone had to keep His teachings through as you and others like you lived a gilded life. I was born humble, lived humble, and will continue to be humble to those who deserve it...rather than those who merely keep past respects as an excuse and decoration. I am hardly radical. I have neither killed any man nor have ordered any hand under my command to do the same. However, I do not trust latinist scum, for they are usurpers and insects who destroy everything. Kasnyian history alone is proof of this. My own agenda is merely the restoration of the Kingdom. My only agenda is to take my rightful place as Patriarch of Kasnyia like my ancestors before me. Far more simple than you who wish to bestow upon your secular master the diplomatic armor to do whatever he pleases, whatever godless thing that may be. And I do not care if I have insulted you. You are King only in name, of a secular state of Genesian majority. You have no place here. And pray tell, what are these delusions of grandeur? To see the rightful Kingdom restored? Unlike our latinist bretheren, we seek no imperium of our own. We only want our home back. That simple wish cannot undo what is immortal by God's will. As for solutions to problems, I have asked for the issues to be discussed one by one, and that alone is a solution. I have told what must be done. Just because you do not care for it does not mean they are not answewrs or solutions. And do not dare tell me that you have "worked" for anything. You know nothing of work. Silence myself? I will not listen to the commands of a powerless hanger-on. You have no authority either here or anywhere. As for what you have done and what I have done, your statements clearly show you know nothing, for if you knew all I have done, you would not dare compare your few pathetic symbolized acts to what I have done in the name of Faith and Country. And you will have to listen to me, regardless of your own wishes. You will have to hear my opinion as much as you hate it. Your undeserved pride will undo you soon enough. And pray tell, how did I get my position through "un-Christian" means? I was ordained Archbishop with the blessings of Emperor Michael X, by the Pope of Alexandria himself. If that is unchristian, then you know nothing of your own religion. Patriarch, Your Eminence, please do not listen to this man. He wishes only for yes-men to force along a treaty that he devised, to serve only his interests. If there is no intellectual dissent allowed, then what sort of a conference is this? His Royal Majesty would be most displeased if I were to be evicted on the wishes of a false King. |
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| Quaon | Mar 29 2008, 07:51 PM Post #106 |
A Prince Amoung Men-Shoot First and Ask Questions Later
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"Your Emminence, I have had enough of this man!" Epiphonias shouted out. "This man has been nothing but disrespectful to myself and the King of Hispania for no apparent reason other than his own hubris. Either show him the door or silence him!" He turned to Tobias. "Have you no shame, my boy? You see this man who is under your command harrassing others, and you stand by and listen to it? You let this man claim to represent you, and your people?" |
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| Kasnyia | Mar 29 2008, 07:57 PM Post #107 |
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Chairman of the Bank
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"I did silence myself until your dear friend the "King" sought to continuing it by insulting my nation." He turned to the Patriarch, "Your Eminence, I do apologize for this, but I was not the one who began this. I made my solutiosn and my problems known and I was attacked for it. These two gentlemen have personal misgivings about me...but that should have nothing to do with what we are attempting. Alliance or Empire...anything in between has too many loopholes. Alexanderhaven would accept either so long as it is not mutated with the principles of the other." |
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| Union | Mar 29 2008, 09:21 PM Post #108 |
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Pyrenees Republic
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King Hannibal II ignored the ramblings of the man. He caught a few words here and there, nothing more than baseless accusations. He turned to the Patriarch, as if asking him to remove the man from the room. Then, Hannibal II seated himself, tired. The Archbishop new nothing. Romano leaned over, looking at the Archbishop, and whispered into Hannibal's ear. "My lord, that man will meet a violent death. I would not worry about him. In the meantime, the treaty is as good as passed, with Cypriot support, and surely WRK support as well. You have full authority to act for Hispania." Romano leaned over his briefcase, and removed several stamps, passing them to Hannibal. "The signatures of myself, the minister of foriegn affairs, and the commander of the Armed Forces. Just stamp them on the document along with your own signature. Please return these to me when you return to Hispania. If you return to Hispania. This man may continue to filibuster aimlessly. Just force through a vote. The armed forces are already ready to enter Andorra." Hannibal II nodded at Romano, and organized the items. He leaned back into his chair, and sighed, looking sadly at the Archbishop, his anger finally having left him. Romano quietly left the room, to return home. The Archbishop's ideas would get him killed someday. Let him spout his rubbish in peace. He looked over the document one last time. "I would like to reaffirm Hispania's support for the Cypriot amendment, and the document as it stands. May those who oppose it raise their issues with it specifically. If none have anything specific to add or retract, I would like to move this toward a vote as soon as possible. There is no sense debating what needs not to be debated. Arguing the value of the treaty when no other alternative has been proposed is nothing more than a waste of time." |
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| Kasnyia | Mar 29 2008, 09:34 PM Post #109 |
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Chairman of the Bank
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OOC- Ehem. Michael is only in his late thrities/early forties EDIT- and :P for ignoring him even after he disproved all your points. EDIT 2- IC- I have proposed solutions. You fail to listen or even pay them attention. Thus your own logic fails. |
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| Union | Mar 29 2008, 10:12 PM Post #110 |
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Pyrenees Republic
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"You have proposed only that we look at each issue one by one. You have provided no structures alternative. If you truly feel that the constitution supported by Hispania and Cyprus is that bad, propose your own draft. Otherwise, there is no reason to examine each point one by one, merely for the sake of examining each point one by one." |
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| NRE | Mar 29 2008, 10:46 PM Post #111 |
Map Tsar and Southern Gentleman
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"No man shall be evicted from this conference" said the Patriarch in a commanding tone. "We have gathered here to united the Orthodox world. To toss a man out now would do nothing to serve the goal of this conference, however I henceforth ban anymore personal attacks from any side, should one more outburst be made, the perpetrator shall be banned from speaking." The Patriarch looked at no one particular person as he spoke. Eventually he did turn to the Alexanderhaven delegation. "From what I have heard, you object to any sort of democratic body to this Empire we propose. You also object to founding anything that is neither an alliance or an Empire. These are both valid complaints, however I would like for you to expand upon these issues and give us your personal solution to these problems. You also ask us to vote issue by issue, but can we not reach the same goal but discussing the matter issue by issue and then voting on the whole constitution at once? I can assure you that when we vote, we will do so only after all issues on the document have been resolved which would in my mind, mean that everyone here either agrees or disagrees with every issue in the constitution. Though I can see your other points, this issue by issue voting simply escapes me." |
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| Kasnyia | Mar 29 2008, 11:12 PM Post #112 |
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Chairman of the Bank
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"As I said before, Eminence," Michael replied, "One does not eat the apple whole. I am not asking for us to split the treaty paragraph by paragraph...I am asking to discuss the issues more generally, rather than go into written document so soon. I fear we are rushing this and as such, problems may arise. In short, we are not near the stage where we can pen treaties." "As for my wish for their not to be democracy, this comes from my belief that the Emperor's authority is given by God for him to rule. Democracy introduces mob mentality and a deluded self-assurance than they have more authority. Just look at the democracies around the world. The Empire must be an empire...otherwise there is no point. If one does not wish for a powerful Emperor, then there should be no semblance of Empire, but instead an alliance. The two must not be mixed together lest loopholes come about and the Empire mutates into something only the devil would imagine. Loopholes of allowing the individual states to go against the Emperor's wishes, to be able to create its own foreign policy...I mean what kind of idea is that? An Empire is a single entity...not some loose confederacy. An Alliance would be better for this kind in foolishness. Thus, the only reason I can think of why anyone would want an empire but have their own foreign policy is simple: they want to use the power of the Empire to bully others, and thus instigate wars. This must not happen." |
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| Quaon | Mar 29 2008, 11:22 PM Post #113 |
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A Prince Amoung Men-Shoot First and Ask Questions Later
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Constantine again spoke up. "But, sir, the old Empire did have a Senate. Why ought we to do otherwise?" OOC: I'm working on the assumption that it did, as (a) the real Byzantine Empire had one, at least a nominal one, and (B) RD has mentioned a Prime Minister. |
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| Kasnyia | Mar 29 2008, 11:25 PM Post #114 |
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Chairman of the Bank
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OOC- Michael is more willing to let go of the Senate point so long as it has no power over the sovereign or his actions. He is more worried about the other stuff, like an empire where the provinces have individual foreign policies or are otherwise autonomus et al. |
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| Union | Mar 30 2008, 07:29 AM Post #115 |
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Pyrenees Republic
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"We have come here to discuss the forging of the Roman Commonwealth; not the Roman Empire. Domestic and regional, not international, autonomy must be preserved." |
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| Kasnyia | Mar 30 2008, 12:57 PM Post #116 |
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Chairman of the Bank
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Then there need be no constituition. A loose commonwealth...just another name for alliance...can be done without such documentation, in the military and diplomatic sense. If this is indeed no Empire, then the Emperor would have no authority over the other states more than he has now. As I said before, if we will be an alliance, then it should only be an alliance. No senate is necessary either, as we are effectively independant entities. If we are to be an alliance, then things are much more simple. Found a headquarters within the True Christian realm, have a general assembly that can make desicions only on behalf of the alliance and nothing more. There is no need for unnecessary paperwork. No perversions upon the idea of alliance are necessary. |
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| Union | Mar 30 2008, 01:19 PM Post #117 |
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Pyrenees Republic
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"Why are you doing your absolute best to move this discussion in circles? You call for discussion on a case-by-case basis - then call it unnecessary. You argue first against voting for a constitution, then against even having one. You do not want to see this organization become a reality, and you have made this fully evident through your words and actions. If you want something discussed, please write up an alternative to debate. Meaningless debate goes nowhere, which is, apparently, exactly where you want it to go. The Imperial Senate should have some power over the Emperor. Emperor's are nothing more than man, and their emotions, whims, and hypocrisies should not destroy this empire. Nations of the empire should have full domestic and regional autonomy. Hispania should be able to operate freely in Iberia and within her borders; Russia should be able to do the same in her own region; as should all states. If you truly are filled with such disgust as to the way Rome shall be rebuilt, then leave. No one is forcing Alexanderhaven to join this thing in the firstplace, you are here willingly. If you find that your own interests are not being discussed, you should leave now, before the document passes, and you no longer can. You are the only man who has vocalized these "problems" - you are the only man who sees it. Thus, fix it. Present me with the treaty, as you would like to see it. Not vague soundbites. Write your own draft of what you would like to see in the treaty. Only then can comparison be made. Your refusal thus far to do that makes me worry as to your intentions." |
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| Kasnyia | Mar 30 2008, 01:26 PM Post #118 |
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Chairman of the Bank
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Michael rolled his eyes and turned to the Patriarch of Moscow, "Your Eminence, I address my concerns only to you, for it is obvious that this man is attempting to restart the debacle inspite of your own ruling to keep to the issues. I have explained myself time and again, and he will not listen, continuing to call for my ouster as though that has anything to do with these issues. As such, I summarily ignore his rants, and will await for your opinion." |
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| Union | Mar 30 2008, 03:22 PM Post #119 |
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Pyrenees Republic
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"Ignore the issue as much as you want, Archbishop, but it changes nothing. I am tired of hearing your vague opinion, your simple aphorism, and am tired of being asked time and time again to listen to the same soundbite over and over again. We all know your views. But this is nothing alone. You desire debate, but you fail to give anything to debate. Your call is nothing but a disguise for the laziness you have thusfar exhibited. You ignore the solution in favor of the short word. I will gladly debate you, if you would but give me something to debate. Not trite philosophical quotations, not vague political ideals. You have the treaty in front of you. You have a pen. Show me what you would consider to be the Roman Empire as its finest. Pretend we are not here. Amend the articles as you see fit. If you were writing the constitution for a future Empire, what would you include in it? Where? Why? Show us this, and then, and only then, can debate occur. Until then, you show you have no concern for these proceedings but as a pulpit from which to spout rubbish and slow the process even further." |
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| NRE | Mar 30 2008, 03:45 PM Post #120 |
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Map Tsar and Southern Gentleman
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The arguing was becoming something of a headache for the Patriarch, who himself was very up in age. "I think" said Tikhon II "I understand a bit more the concerns of the Kasnyians delegation. At the start of this conference it was proposed that we together form a commonwealth of states to form a new Roman Empire. However, Empire and Commonwealth are by definition opposites to one another. There I think it should be well defined now as to which direction we wish to take. For if we chose one of the other, I should think it will have a direct connection to changing or revising some of the current parts of the constitution as it is now" |
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| Kasnyia | Mar 30 2008, 03:53 PM Post #121 |
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Chairman of the Bank
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Michael nodded with a smile. Atleast the Patriarch was listening. "Thank you, Eminence, for your understanding." |
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| Union | Mar 30 2008, 05:45 PM Post #122 |
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Pyrenees Republic
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"So then, Archbishop, if we may see the structure you would like?" |
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| Kasnyia | Mar 30 2008, 06:01 PM Post #123 |
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Chairman of the Bank
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"We either form an Empire, where the states follow a single foreign policy of the Emperor, who is not obligated to any senate and all states are obligated to protect all other states within the Empire, or we form an Alliance, where we are united by religion and culture, but are otherwise left to our own devices unless we specifically ask for assistance in military affairs, which in turn should only be used for defensive purposes lest some war mongerer attempts to create unnecessary conflict. One or the other, and nothing in between. This is what I suggest on behalf of my liege. Any hybrid will be objected to at once." "Should we choose Empire, I ask that the House Romanov retain its control. If we choose Alliance, I suggest we set up headquarters somewhere that will not be under immediate attack, which we may debate. Then I suggest the Emperor not be the leader, but merely the chairman of such an alliance. I also believe that this alliance must be exclusive, and all other alliances be severed, for the sake of Orthodoxy. We need not the Treaty of Konigsberg. We need not JAUST. We need not the godless socialists." "As for Alexanderhaven's preferences, we prefer Empire. However, we will follow whichever path the Emperor chooses...again, so long as it is not a hybrid but one or the other. If not, then Alexanderhaven would have to take leave with the King's apologies." |
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| Rhadamanthus | Apr 5 2008, 11:53 AM Post #124 |
Legitimist
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OOC: From an OOC perspective, what do people want out of this? Getting a better idea might help us direct the IC roleplay. FWIW, I'll probably sign any document that comes out of this and provides at least a reasonable degree of unity. |
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| Union | Apr 5 2008, 11:55 AM Post #125 |
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Pyrenees Republic
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ooc: I want full military support for a conflict in Andorra, and an economic Pan-Roman treaty. (Aurum Treaty Organization, which I proposed long ago). Whether its an alliance or an Empire is completely secondary. Hispania would rather have some degree of autonomy, however, from central organization, than completely signing away its rights. And down the line, I'd also prefer to stay out of a war with the Dominion, and merely consolidate rule in Europe while letting Gassel do whatever the hell he wants elsewhere. But this is tertiary, in terms of priority. |
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