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The Triumph of Orthodoxy
Topic Started: Feb 10 2008, 10:43 PM (1,799 Views)
Union
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Pyrenees Republic
"Should the Emperor be Dynastic, the majority of power should rest with the Roman Senate. Should the Emperor be elected, the majority of power may rest with him."
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Kasnyia
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Chairman of the Bank
These ideas of democracy sicken me. What point would it be to call it an Empire if the bloody Senate rules.

Alexanderhaven will not partake in this alliance should it be ruled by such a devolved entity compared to her own government.
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NRE
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Map Tsar and Southern Gentleman

"Perhaps my brothers of faith" said the Tsar who had until this point sat back and weighed heavily the beliefs of both sides of the argument. "Perhaps, there is some sort of compromise that can be found to this issue of rule. I thank all who see fit to see my hereditary line to rule this new Empire. However, I also understand the concerns of those who would see the Roman Senate have more power and that the Emperor be elected.


Perhaps, though I have no sounds suggestion as of yet, we could put in place some sort of safeguards that will ensure that the Emperor or whatever body is to rule the Empire cannot step outside the will of the Roman people or the church."
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Devin Wire
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"I ask that we at least spend some time discussing the way in which our economic operations shall be funded. I trust that time is something we have; a divinely inspired mission is granted such luxury."
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Kasnyia
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Chairman of the Bank
The territories of the empire do what is best for each state in regards to economics and then all states pay 10% of their treasure to the Emperor.
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Union
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Pyrenees Republic
"All states should pay for all the Empire's administrative, not military, costs within their respective territories. The Empire should take what is necessary, but no more. A flat rate of 10% encourages waste. Military costs should be shared by those who benefit the most. If there is a military campaign in Georgia, Russia should pay for most of it. If there is a military campaign in Iberia, Hispania would do so."

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Devin Wire
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"Perhaps it best to keep, then, administrative costs to their lowest possible. The Administration should primarily exist to serve the needs of the Church and of God."
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Kasnyia
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Chairman of the Bank
And if Scythirus should invade Alexanderhaven? Not all states are great military monoliths. The Empire is one nation. Any part of it comes to attack, all should defend it. We stand by the flat tax of 10%.

As for the suggestion to streamline administration, Alexanderhaven agrees and has already put that in effect in our own country.
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Union
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Pyrenees Republic
"Is the Empire going to fund Hispania's education system? Health-care? Local military? Energy imports? What about their police forces, or provincial grants? What about Hispania's administrative costs? Hispania does not operate on a budget surplus, and cannot pay on a flat rate, unless the Empire is willing to pay for Hispanic programs it must sacrifice.

Why should small rich states pay more than large, poor ones?

A nation should pay for whatever administrative and military costs their nations cost from the Empire, and not one cent more. If Alexanderhaven requires defense, then it pays for that defense as the Empire gives it, to a point.

This has several advantages - as each nation must foot the bill for their actions, less nations will pursue reckless foriegn policy, safe behind the might of the Empire. The Empire will be dragged into fewer needless wars, and needless costs. Nations that do not require as much assistance from the Empire will not be taxed as much as a nation which enters a war once a year.

This is the only fair way to do it. Any other method, such as a flat tax, is sheer lunacy."
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Quaon
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A Prince Amoung Men-Shoot First and Ask Questions Later
"Perhaps, instead of taking the tax out of each nation's treasury, we should impose a direct income tax on the citizens of the Empire, or perhaps some sort of sales tax? This is only an idea, as this matter of economics is not my forte."
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Union
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Pyrenees Republic
"That would create another level of beauracracy. The simplest solution is for each nation in the Roman Commonwealth to fund programs it is directly involved in, and that occur within its borders.
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Devin Wire
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"My fellow members of the Communal Eastern Church; must we bicker and present Keyensian solutions? Allow the Church, and charity to finance such matters."
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NRE
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Map Tsar and Southern Gentleman

"I find King Hannibal's solution to be most agreeable." said the Tsar. "A nation within the Empire should not be imposed to help another nation as this current junction. It should be pointed out that at the conception of this Empire we stand as divided and different states. Each with an economy unique unto itself and we must better understand these economies before we the whole of the Empire to stand as one.

For now it seems best that each nation within the Empire should only be required to pay for the amenities that it requires from the Empire. This will ensure that no nation becomes a burden on the rest, bringing down what will surely be a fragile Imperial economy at the beginning. In time as the Empire grows economically and we have had the chance to study one another's economic situations more thoroughly, this can be changed."

The Tsar turned to Tobias "an in the case of such nations as Alexanderhaven, who does not have a strong military as others but would be forced to pay the larger share of any military spending that would occur should that said nation be attack, a charity system could be put in place. Perhaps funded by the church, to help relieve the economic burden or war and lower the debt of such an operation.

This all of course is just a suggestion, an idea that has come to me during these discussion. I do hope we can come to some agreement as I believe we should return to the more pressing matter of administration for the Empire."
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Kasnyia
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Chairman of the Bank
OOC- Its Archbishop Michael speaking, not Tobias. Tobias is sitting silently with other things on his mind. Namely trying to find a bride. :lol:

IC-

And then how shall the church conduct its own affairs with the people if all its money is thrown into funding the military? The Church is not a bank and I am not a banker! The Scythirans could easily crush Alexanderhaven if we have to pay to have our own brothers defend us! Even now, the look at our coasts with bloodlust. I fear that we may be next after Georgia.

I cannot accept to deliver this suggestion to my King. It just isn't possible.

Either we accept this as an alliance and leave it as such, with the typical responsibiliies of an alliance, or we consolidate into Empire. This half-measure is far too unwieldy and plays as a security blanket for strong states and as a great burden on the weak states.
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Quaon
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A Prince Amoung Men-Shoot First and Ask Questions Later
Archbishop Epiphonias spoke up. "I believe that there are some things that the imperial government must subsidize for it to be effective. The Imperial Military ought to be financed by the Empire directly and without bias. Since any Imperial Military action would be a defensive action without the consent of the entire Empire, it would be unfair for a state to have to pay a greater share than normal for its defense. In fact, such a state would be better off staying independent in some ways. Now, there are certain things that should be financed by each state, such as education. The military is not one of these things.

"Now to the proposition that the Orthodox Church ought to pay for military matters. This is outrageous. To ask the Church to finance secular wars will bleed the Church dry. Also, to the question of succession, I believe that it should be dynastic, but I also believe that the Emperor must be ratified by the various hierarchs of the Orthodox Church."
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NRE
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Map Tsar and Southern Gentleman

Kasnyia
Mar 6 2008, 10:47 AM
OOC- Its Archbishop Michael speaking, not Tobias. Tobias is sitting silently with other things on his mind. Namely trying to find a bride. :lol:

OOC: Oops my bad :P

IC:

"My brothers of faith I apologize for not being clear on my suggestion about the church. I did not mean to suggest the church should help fund wars as certainly that is an absurd notion. I simply meant to suggest that while a nation would need to divert their finances to war, the church could step in and raise money to hep fund other sectors of that nation's government, those sectors essential with the well-being of that nation's citizens.

These funds do not and should not come from the direct treasury of the church but perhaps from fundraisers to church sponsors. Again though this was just a suggestion and I did not mean to offend anyone with my suggestion."
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Quaon
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A Prince Amoung Men-Shoot First and Ask Questions Later
OOC: Guys, let's get the ball rolling here.
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Rhadamanthus
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Legitimist

OOC:

Where are we? Perhaps we could get a list of what needs to be addressed?
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Union
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Pyrenees Republic
King Hannibal rose, and presented a document. "This is the Constitution that Hispania would desire most. Changes are marked within the text."

Quote:
 

Constitution of the Roman Commonwealth

Preamble:

In the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, we, the Roman and Orthodox people and the sovereign representatives thereof, in order to promote good governance and right order on the Earth, to work for the Salvation of the people, and to protect and defend the Orthodox Christian Faith, do hereby establish this Commonwealth and Empire.

Article I: Membership

Section 1: The Empire of the Romans
The lands of all realms and states that endorse this Constitution and join this Commonwealth will together form one Roman Empire.  All citizens and subjects of Commonwealth realms and states are citizens of the Empire, but are bound by the laws of the member state they reside in at any given time.

Section 2: Conditions
Any realm or state that desires to enter the Commonwealth and join the Empire of the Romans must have Orthodox Christianity as its official or co-official religion, or alternatively, must have Orthodox Christianity as its majority religion.  Its monarch or head of state must be a baptized member of the Orthodox Christian Church. The above criteria may be bypassed by an Emperor's endorsement, or a majority vote within the Roman Senate.

Section 3: Admission Procedure
All realms and states that ratify this Constitution according to their laws at the founding convention are members of the Roman Commonwealth and constituent states of the Roman Empire.  Any other realm or state that satisfies the conditions laid out in Article I, Section 2, may send an application for membership to the Roman Senate.  The Roman Senate will then vote on the application.  If the Roman Senate votes in favor of the application, it will be handed to the Roman Emperor for his signature.  If the Roman Emperor signs the application and marks it with the Great Seal of the Romans, the applying realm or state becomes a full member of the Commonwealth and constituent state of the Empire, equal to the other members.  If an application is rejected by the Roman Senate or the Roman Emperor, its rejection must be accompanied by a list of conditions.  The conditions must be satisfied before another application may be submitted.

Section 4: Expulsion
Any realm or state that ceases to satisfy the criteria outlined in Section 1 of this Article may be expelled by an Act of the Roman Senate.  Otherwise, no realm or state shall be expelled for any reason.  Any state that is expelled will have the right to appeal to the Civil Court of the Roman Commonwealth. Only states expulsed may leave the Roman Empire peacefully.

Section 5: Constituent States of the Empire
Every constituent state of the Empire will respect the judicial and legislative processes of the other constituent states, and will not hide from justice any fugitive from another constituent state.  No new state may be created from the boundaries of a constituent state without the full agreement of that constituent state, as articulated through its own legislative processes. All memberstates will have the ability to operate independently of the Empire in certain domestic and regional affairs, as determined by the Roman Senate.

Article II: The Legislative Power

Section 1: The Roman Senate
The Legislative functions of the Roman Commonwealth will be vested in the Roman Senate.

Section 2: Membership
The Roman Senate will include a number of members from each constituent state of the Empire, apportioned according to population.  The initial numbers of members will be decided at the founding convention, and the Roman Senate will be responsible for reapportioning membership at regular intervals set by the Roman Emperor.  Each constituent state of the Roman Empire will decide using its own methods how its Senators will be selected.  A Senator can only be removed by the authority of the Roman Emperor, by the authority of his constituent state, or upon conviction of a major offense by the Civil or Ecclesiastical Courts of the Roman Commonwealth.

Section 3: Meeting
The Roman Senate will assemble when summoned to do so by the Roman Emperor and at no other time, unless the Roman Emperor is in such a condition that the Senate must be called upon to govern the Commonwealth.

Section 4: Procedures
The Roman Senate will pass Acts of the Senate by majority vote.  Any Act of the Senate must, after its passing, be signed and sealed by the Roman Emperor in order to pass into Roman Law.  Any Act of the Senate that is passed but not signed is void.  All other procedures relating to the operation of the Roman Senate will be defined by the Roman Senate. The Senate may override the Emperor with a unaminous decision.

Section 5: Powers of the Roman Senate
The Roman Senate will fully exercise the power to pass Acts relating to borrowing of money, currency, foreign policy, commerce between constituent states and with foreign powers, and relating to the national defense, including the declaration of war.  These powers may not be exercised by constituent states.  No other power may be exercised by the Roman Senate unless expressly granted to it by three-fourths of the constituent states, in which case it is automatically revoked as soon as fewer than three-fourths of the consituent states endorse the additional power.

Section 6: Powers of the Constituent States
All legislative functions not listed in Article II, Section 5 continue to belong to the constituent states and may never be exercised by the Roman Senate, except as stipulated in Section 5.  Every constituent state of the Roman Empire will continue to govern itself according to its own laws and customs.

Section 7: Support
All operations of the Roman Empire will be supported economically by its constituent states.  The Roman Senate will be authorized to apportion the costs of this support according to the economic strength of the various constituent states thorugh an Act of the Senate.

Section 8: Taxation
All states of the Roman Empire will fund the activities of the Roman Empire within their own borders, or any action conducted on their behalf. The Roman Empire may pass laws collecting small, temporary taxes to help a nation deal with an economic crisis. Defensive warfare will be funded cooperatively throughout the empire through an Imperial income tax on the populace, not exceeding more than 5% at any given time.


Article III: The Executive Power

Section 1: The Roman Emperor
The Executive Power shall be vested in the Roman Emperor, who is the supreme sovereign and fount of law in the Roman Empire.

Section 2: Election
From the founding convention, Tsar of Russia will bear the office of the Roman Emperor signified by the Title of Emperor and Autocrat of the Romans.  Each Roman Emperor will serve in his office for life.  Upon the death of one Emperor, a new Emperor will be elected from the Orthodox monarchs and heads of state of the constituent states.  The Election of the Emperor will be performed by the Civil and Ecclesiastical Courts of the Roman Commonwealth.

Section 3: Assistance
The Roman Emperor may authorize any person, office, or apparatus necessary to assist him in his functions.

Section 4: The Roman Emperor and the Roman Senate
The Roman Emperor will have the authorized to summon the Roman Senate and decide when it will meet.  Additionally, the Roman Emperor may remove from office any Roman Senator.  Finally, any Act of the Roman Senate must be signed by the Emperor and sealed with the Great Seal of the Romans, in order to have legal effect.

Section 5: The Roman Emperor and the High Courts
The Roman Emperor has the right to send any case to the High Courts.  He has the right to grant an appeal to the High Courts to any Senator.  The Roman Emperor sits on both the Civil Court of the Roman Commonwealth and the Ecclesiastical Court of the Roman Commonwealth, and has final authority over which court hears any given case.  He has the authority to decide when the High Courts meet.

Section 6: Foreign Affairs
The Roman Emperor will represent the entire Commonwealth to foreign states, though individual monarchs and heads of state may continue to represent their constituent states.  The Emperor will be the Commander in Chief of the Roman Imperial Military, which shall consist of the militaries of all constituent states when summoned by the Roman Emperor. All meber-states are represented by the Roman Empire in foriegn affairs

Section 7: Imperial Edicts
As the Living Law of the Roman and Orthodox people, the Emperor is authorized to pass Imperial Edicts that are binding on all constituent states of the Roman Empire unless specifically rejected by a constituent state.

Article IV: The Judicial Power

Section 1: The Civil and Ecclesiastical Courts of the Roman Commonwealth
The Judicial Power shall be vested in two High Courts, the Civil Court of the Roman Commonwealth and the Ecclesiastical Court of the Roman Commonwealth.

Section 2: Jurisdiction
The Civil and Ecclesiastical Courts of the Roman Commonwealth will have jurisdiction between all disputes between constituent states, all disputes between a constituent state and the Commonwealth, all disputes between a constituent state and a foreign power, all disputes arising from an Act of Senate, and any other contraversies deemed significant by the Roman Emperor.  Additionally, any constituent state being expelled from the Commonwealth has the right to appeal to the Civil Court.  Any Senator may appeal to the High Courts at the will of the Roman Emperor.  Cases before the High Courts will be divided by content into Civil and Ecclesiastical Cases and heard by the appropriate Court.  The Roman Emperor has final say over whether a given case is heard by the Civil Court, the Ecclesiastical Court, or by a combined tribunal of both High Courts.

Section 3: Meeting
The High Courts will be convened by the Roman Emperor at times of his discretion to hear pending cases.

Section 4: Judges
The Civil Court of the Roman Commonwealth shall be judged by the Roman Emperor and the monarch or head of state of every constituent state of the Roman Empire.  The Ecclesiastical Court of the Roman Commonwealth shall be judged by the Roman Emperor and the most senior Orthodox Church bishop of ever constituent state of the Roman Empire.

Section 5: Elections
The High Courts have the sole authority to elect the Roman Emperor.  After the death of a Roman Emperor, the remaining members of the Civil and Ecclesiastical Courts of the Roman Commonwealth will meet in a timely fashion to elect one of the monarchs or heads of state as the succeeding Roman Emperor.

Article V: Amendment

This Constitution may be amended only with the consent of every constituent state of the Roman Empire, or by the unanimous decision of the Roman Senate and the Roman Emperor.

Article VI: Ratification

This Constitution will go into effect when agreed to by the Russian Empire and three other qualifying realms or states.
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Quaon
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A Prince Amoung Men-Shoot First and Ask Questions Later
"I agree with the Hispanic revisions, except this one:

Quote:
 
Section 6: Foreign Affairs
The Roman Emperor will represent the entire Commonwealth to foreign states, though individual monarchs and heads of state may continue to represent their constituent states.  The Emperor will be the Commander in Chief of the Roman Imperial Military, which shall consist of the militaries of all constituent states when summoned by the Roman Emperor. All member-states are represented by the Roman Empire in foriegn affairs.


"I believe that each member state should have some degree of autonomy in foreign affairs."
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Union
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Pyrenees Republic
That is merely so no conflict arises with the Treaty of Konigsberg, of which several Romans are members, which demands memberstates be part of only one organization.
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NRE
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Map Tsar and Southern Gentleman

"I understand our concerns about the ToK, however I feel that the nations not represented here in the ToK will be understanding of our decision to forge this Empire and though I cannot guarantee it, I believe some sort of compromise can be made which would allow us to remain friendly with ToK. Perhaps an cooperation pack can be made between the Empire, once it is formed, at the ToK which would allow members of both groups to reap the benefits of both organizations. It would in, my opinion, certainly be beneficial for both organizations to work together. An this would allow us to thus operate independently in the matter of foreign affairs."
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Kasnyia
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Chairman of the Bank
We are either to be an empire or an alliance. Not some half-breed of both. As an Empire, all foreign relations desicions should be made by the Emperor and only the Emperor. If we are an alliance, then there is no need to forge this union any further. If by forging the Empire we must forsake the Treaty of Konigsberg, so be it. Otherwise, let us not waste time any further with this talk of union, if the provinces of the empire are effectively independant of the Emperor's rule.

Should this democratically created imperium come into existance, know that it will be a poor mockery of the original. Alexanderhaven will not back an Empire where the Emperor, in this case the Tsar, is equal to the provincial kings.
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Devin Wire
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The words that are being spoken are now far too harsh; have we forgotten why we are here? The Empire should, before anything else, primarily exist to serve the greater glory of God.
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Kasnyia
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Chairman of the Bank
Indeed it should, but it must do so efficiently. Rule by mob is the most inefficient way to carry out God's word and God's wishes.
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