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| Which is worse?; Not for the faint hearted | |
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| Topic Started: Dec 4 2007, 10:55 PM (399 Views) | |
| New Harumf | Dec 16 2007, 12:17 PM Post #26 |
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Bloodthirsty Unicorn
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Nag, you've made a few assumptions about crucifixion which are wrong. Christ was nailed to his cross, yes, but this is very unusual. Normally, you are tied to a cross by the arms only, feet tied together, but hanging loose. You hang there, being given water so you don't die of dehydration, and you hang there, and you hang there. Eventually, your arms grow very weak, and you begin to hang slack, supporting your weight by your arms. As you do that, your lungs get squeezed and you cannot take a breath, so the only way to breathe is to pull your weight up, breathe, and then go slack again. This can go on for days as you slowly suffocate. If your executioner wants to speed things up, they might break a few bones - ribs, arms, etc. but this is again very unusual. As you hang there, birds may come and feast on your eyes - you can shake your head to ward them off, but eventually you become too weak to even do that. Dogs too may nibble on your feet. In the crucifixion of St. Sebastian he hung there for three days before the Roman officers used him for target practice with their bows and arrows. Christ died vey quickly and mercifully compared to normal crucifixion - the nails made it near impossible to get a breath and the wound in his side caused loss of blood (by the way, it is more likely the nails went through his wrists since if they went through his palms, his weight would rip them out). Three hours is quick! |
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| Comrade Queen | Dec 16 2007, 12:50 PM Post #27 |
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Comrade Bitchqueen
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Thanks, NH. I shall continue to stand by the fact that crucifixion is by far the worst punishment ever devised by man. The breaking wheel may come as a close second, but the undo suffering and agony caused by being crucified that lasts for days on end is so much worse because it's a very slow and miserable death. |
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| Nag Ehgoeg | Dec 16 2007, 03:18 PM Post #28 |
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The Devil's Advocate
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Then you've made a few assumptions about crucifixion which are wrong.
Christ was supposedly nailed yes. Through what is believed to be his forearms, yes.
First off, I'd like to see any evidence (at all) of giving crucifixion victims water. Under any circumstances. In any culture. At any period in history. Given that it takes about three days to die of dehydration, doesn't seem likely to me and it's not something I've ever heard of. Seems horribly ineffecient and certainly against Roman mentality. Crucifixion was considered to be one of the worst, most degrading and humiliting deaths reserved for slaves, traitors and dregs. No-one is going to waste time giving these people water.
Why wouldn't you just go slack and strangle yourself to death? No, seriously. The average person can't hold his breath until he dies, but unless you were suspended at an ackward angle (perfectly possible, see below) then it would be all too possible to go slack, give up and (if the urge to survive strikes you) simply twist from side to side until you pass out. If you're stating that the primary cause of death for crucifixion is asphyxiation, then I'll take that as a blissfully quick death. Gone in three minutes, thank you very much. Assuming that isn't an option... on a standard nighty degree cross schtick you'd need to be in peak physical condition to be able to suck air for more than a day. For a more "peace symbol" style cross, the average person probably would be able to last days pulling themselves up for more air - longer if you had some kind of support to take the pressure off (like a wooden horse or a board-with-nail-in-it between the legs... even a platform under the feet that's high enough to stand on but not high enough to let you draw breath). Now we're talking days, maybe a week to die exactly the death you've described... if you survived the exposure and dehydration. See below.
Breaking wheel. Doesn't exempt you.
I considered letting your arguement lie without retort until I saw this. Saint Sebastian. St Sebastian of Narbonne? Patron saint of athletes and soldiers? Being tied to a post is not a crucifixion. And he didn't hang there for three days. They put him up. They shot him full of arrows. They left him for dead. Care to cite a source against me? **** When crucified the victim is fixed to a cross. Either by rope or nailed. I think nails when I think crucifixion. Arms splayed either parallel to the ground and feet bound together but free to stand on a platform (if you want to speed up death, you break their legs - causing them to asphyxiate or die of shock in a matter of minutes (hours if they're healthy and strong enough to support their weight on outstreched arms and don't die of shock)). Death comes from exposure to elements (depending on climate and weather this could be over night) or from dehydration in around three days. You can always speed this up by inflicting extra wounds (Jesus style for a same day death) - but why would you bother? Leave the bodies out to be defiled by the animals. No need for a burial. Crucifixion is a mass punishment for the lowest of the low. Giving people water... is ludicrous. That pretty much puts a three day limit on how long you can live once crucified. And even with water, you'd probably die of exhaustion before three days on a "traditional looking" cross. "Peace symbol" style cross, given water... that's not worth thinking about. Hell, given food and not being nailed and that's an execution that could last weeks of concerted agnony. Of course, this blurs the lines of execution and torture a little too much for my tastes. Strung up outside. Exposed to the wind and rain (or baking sun). You're not going to live long. Bearing in mind crucifixion is meant to be humilitating (ever pay attention to what Jesus was wearing on the cross) you're not going to have anything like the protection from the elements that even the average homeless person has. Compared to the breaking wheel. You have your limbs broken. If internal haemorage doesn't get you, the secptisimia will. If you're broken you will not last two days. Hell, even if you do you've still got exposure and dehydration to contend with. Without a doubt, breaking would typically take a matter of hours. Providing that no extra wounds are given and the subject is healthy, I'd estimate something in the region of six, maybe eight hours on average (this covering those who die in minutes from shock and those unfortunates who last the full two days). We're talking about massive injury to extremities, certainly you'll be far too broken to fight off any vultures going for your eyes or dogs going for your toes. I'm not argueing that breaking is by any means the same length of time as crucifixion... but you seem convinced that you can stay alive for a rediculous amount of time on a cross. Because of the way you're suspended and the nature of your wounds, if you're broken there's nothing you can do to speed up your death. Breaking is so horribly inefficient as a method of killing that almost always the actual breaking is not the cause of death. The Romans favoured breaking of the ribs as the death blow: it wasn't until the Middle Ages that the French brought into vogue hanging the victims upside down on the wheel (like I've suggested) crucifixion style in order to get the full flavour. On average, your crucifixion is going to last longer than your breaking. By a day, maybe two. The shortest time it takes to die by breaking is probably hours shorter than the shortest time it takes to die if crucified (assuming you can't simply let yourself hang). And the longest you could (hypothetically) live on a cross is much longer than how long you could survive after breaking. I really don't want to take away from crucifixion being a terrible death. If breaking wasn't there, then I'd rate it head, shoulders and T-beam above any of the other deaths there. I retract the cake walk comment I made earlier, but stand by breaking being crucifixion on crack. Of course everyone's entitled to their own opinions. Maybe the extra time spent lingering is worse in your opinion. But (to the best of my knowledge) it's certainly not significantly longer to make me change my opinion. Now I'm not using "opinion" as a get out clause. I'll happily debate you. If you can back your arguements up with some factual sources, I might even accept that my opinion is misinformed and change my mind. But I think I know a lot about crucifixion and I certainly know a lot about my own opinions. Just trying to make the point that different things are important to different people. |
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| Comrade Queen | Dec 16 2007, 05:39 PM Post #29 |
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Comrade Bitchqueen
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Actually it is. It's called crux simplex. And furthermore, the whole "being tied upside-down" thing you're describing with the Catherine wheel isn't anything special. St. Peter was crucified upside-down. The wheel as you've stated only takes mere hours to kill you. Crucifixion takes days. That means a longer time of undue suffering. Days > hours. |
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9:07 AM Jul 11