Political survey

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Political survey; Where do you stand?
Topic Started: Nov 9 2007, 11:40 PM (3,112 Views)
lebowski2123	Dec 2 2007, 05:46 PM Post #176
Resident? Posts: 1,535 Group: Members Member #257 Joined: July 22, 2006	Quote: America has got to rebuild its economic independence. End globalization, and start bringing industry back to America. That'll give us a leg up in the next century when the US becomes the Chinese USSR. That makes me so happy Hispania, thank you for saying that. ^_^



Tristan da Cunha	Dec 2 2007, 05:48 PM Post #177
Science and Industry Posts: 6,792 Group: Veterans Member #86 Joined: November 1, 2004	The Holy Empire of Racaria Dec 2 2007, 05:41 PM This is the only part of that silly post of yours that merits a response. Regardless of who he was trying to protect himself from by developing them, Saddam Hussein's Iraq was an oppresive, rogue state which could obviously not have been trusted with WMDs. The fact remains, we would very likely NOT have gone in if Saddam had agreed to U.N. inspections and obeyed the many U.N. resolutions passed against him. The U.N. also shares the blame as they are pathetically unable to enforce their own resolutions, don't even get me started. Saddam could have been FULLY TRUSTED with WMDs. We GAVE him WMDs in the 1980s, we told him to use it against Iran, and he did! He followed us around like a Chihuahua! How much more trust do you want from this guy? But no matter, because he did not have WMDs in the 1990s. But he always suggested that he still had WMDs, because he wanted Iran to fear him. Who cares about the UN inspections? We could've played Iraq and Iran off each other for the world's benefit, and instead we fucked it up and we continue to fuck it up. Now, you say my post is "silly," but that is only because you have not attempted to refute any of my comments because you have complete ignorance of the politics and history of the Middle East, as you have demonstrated in your totally misinformed, middle school-level posts. I am already certain that you still will not attempt to refute what I have posted, simply due to the insurmountable gaps in your knowledge in this field.



Rhadamanthus	Dec 2 2007, 05:48 PM Post #178
Legitimist Posts: 12,945 Group: Admin Member #19 Joined: January 13, 2004	Quaon Dec 2 2007, 04:46 PM Quote: We lost our priorities in this war the moment Bush went after Saddam. The wisest thing politically related you have said in this thread. Also, a bit off topic, but I think this bares repeating: few people actually get that most Muslims don't live in the Middle East. Let me give you an example. I briefly dated a girl from Indonesian. She was ethnically Chinese, and lives in China for most of the year, but her family live in Indonesia. Like most Indonesians, they are Muslims. They are, statistically (besides the ethnically Chinese part), the average Muslim. Yeah, and India has one of the largest Muslim populations in the world. But the debate here is mainly about the Middle East because that is where America is concerning itself, and because that is where al-Queda generally recruits from. I appreciate the point you are making, and it is a good one.



Kasnyia	Dec 2 2007, 05:50 PM Post #179
Chairman of the Bank Posts: 12,339 Group: Veterans Member #164 Joined: July 15, 2005	You trying to call me a fool, Q? Just because I don't support the Paulist/Libertarians? Don't be arrogant enough to say that was a wise statement only on the pretense that you happen to agree with it.



Rhadamanthus	Dec 2 2007, 05:53 PM Post #180
Legitimist Posts: 12,945 Group: Admin Member #19 Joined: January 13, 2004	Kasnyia Dec 2 2007, 04:50 PM You trying to call me a fool, Q? Just because I don't support the Paulist/Libertarians? Don't be arrogant enough to say that was a wise statement only on the pretense that you happen to agree with it. Saying something was the wisest doesn't actually say anything bad about any of your other points Kas. It leaves open a perfect possibility that the other statements were wise but less wise, or neither wise nor foolish. Don't react to percieved slights that aren't actually present in the statement.



Quaon	Dec 2 2007, 05:54 PM Post #181
A Prince Amoung Men-Shoot First and Ask Questions Later Posts: 8,837 Group: Forum Mods Member #209 Joined: January 11, 2006	Kasnyia Dec 2 2007, 05:50 PM You trying to call me a fool, Q? Just because I don't support the Paulist/Libertarians? Don't be arrogant enough to say that was a wise statement only on the pretense that you happen to agree with it. You misinterpt me, Kas. I praise your centrism; it is refreshing. I was merely stating that that was a great point, and was the best you had in this thread. It wasn't supposed to be negative. I agree with a lot of what you say, mainly, I disagree with your abstination from politics.



Kasnyia	Dec 2 2007, 05:56 PM Post #182
Chairman of the Bank Posts: 12,339 Group: Veterans Member #164 Joined: July 15, 2005	Aight, aight. Sorry for blowing up. And :P to you for being against my abstination. :D Hmm...Racaria bailed on the topic? I still want him to answer wht the difference is between Iraq and Pakistan according to his logic...



Rhadamanthus	Dec 2 2007, 05:57 PM Post #183
Legitimist Posts: 12,945 Group: Admin Member #19 Joined: January 13, 2004	Let him take his time. He's facing so many other people here, that it has to be a little difficult for him.



Kasnyia	Dec 2 2007, 06:01 PM Post #184
Chairman of the Bank Posts: 12,339 Group: Veterans Member #164 Joined: July 15, 2005	Yeah you guys were a little too harsh, ganging up on him like that. :lol: This kind of debate in this kind of format should be one on one or equal numbers on both sides....but alas tis not...



Tristan da Cunha	Dec 2 2007, 06:02 PM Post #185
Science and Industry Posts: 6,792 Group: Veterans Member #86 Joined: November 1, 2004	I hope Racaria is taking the time to do some research about all this before he posts. I am happy to wait for someone to research his comments and opinions rather than simply post with no grounding anywhere near reality.



lebowski2123	Dec 2 2007, 06:10 PM Post #186
Resident? Posts: 1,535 Group: Members Member #257 Joined: July 22, 2006	Racaria, I'd like to talk to you a little bit about respect. You don't know me, and I haven't been active in this topic. However, I have been watching it unfold, thinking with every post that you would back down and see the error in your statements. It amazes me that you're still tossing insults and horrendous opinions. I'm going to say something now. I'd like to refer you to a mistake of my own, when I made a request under the thread Germans. I said something, my request was refuted, and rather then fighting a losing battle I conceded the point, shut up, and moved on. You need to do the same. There is not a single post of yours here which I agree with, and if you fancy yourself a conservative crusader I feel for you. I myself am one of the most conservative folks on the forum, yet even I see through the propaganda you have drank like so much scotch, giddy to spot the substance you seem to refer to as Quote: bullshit . I ask that instead of demanding that other folks here amend their head ware, you look at your own appearance: take off your tin-hat of ignorance. Opinions are fine and good, but what I do take exception to is your speaking of TC's post as "silly." Do you know that he is one of the most eloquent, intelligent and influential people of our forum here, and a man I have found both helpful and friendly in all our endeavors? Obviously not. His one post held more fact and sense then the sum of your posts have, yet all YOU can do is sling insult in the face of fact. You're wrong, and I'd be happy to list the 1,000 FACTUAL reasons why if my comrades hadn't already done so. These guys have looked up facts or already studied them, they have taken the time to formulate opinions so that we can hold a cohesive, educated discussion here, yet you think it's ok to come into this thread and make ignorant statements, statements you can only support through the use of verbal assault. Rescind your statements, and all will be forgiven with the passage of time. Continue to insult the senior members of this forum and spout a load of bullshit, and perhaps your time spent here will come to an end, a victim of your own stupidity.



Kasnyia	Dec 2 2007, 06:20 PM Post #187
Chairman of the Bank Posts: 12,339 Group: Veterans Member #164 Joined: July 15, 2005	Cool, down, leb, cool down. The man does not yte know how we work. I'm willing to give him (ad his ignorance, which has reached its own critical mass apparantly) the benefit of the doubt. Let me try, hm? Racaria, you have your beliefs, and they have theirs, and I have my own lonesome. If you wish to debate, you must debate it academically and with hard facts at your side, because that is how the various political members of this forum debate, myself included. Rather than call them names or otherwise personalize the debate (they too personalize the debate at times, so you aren't the only one), look up your facts and pick a thread of arguement to follow rather than attempt to answer all of them at once. I too have found myself at odds with them, as frankly I do not agree with the majority of them the majority of the time. As such, I make my point of few clear and then make statements on small points rather than attempt to score a huge victory from broad posts that are generally full of holes. You should try the same, and perhaps you woud not earn the amount vitriol from the members that you have gained this day.



The Holy Empire of Racaria	Dec 2 2007, 06:23 PM Post #188
Sergeant Posts: 115 Group: Members Member #387 Joined: November 25, 2007	Quote: If the U.N. passes resolutions, only the U.N. has the right to decide when they are violated and when to enforce them. It is irrational to cite resolutions that the U.N. refused to enforce as a rationale for going to war. The U.N. did try to enforce those resolutions against Saddam, it then proceeded to destroy what was left of its credibility and respect by passing more resolutions to enforce those previously passed resolutions. All the U.N. does anymore is write strongly worded letters to whomever pisses it off, over and over again. And when it does send its blue helmets, they are usually incompetent, and willfully negelectful of their mission, as the U.N. soldiers who kidnapped and raped innocent women and children in Darfur were, and probably still are. Please don't get me started on the U.N. Quote: Seriously, I know where you are coming from. I'd have made that same argument five years ago when we were discussing going to war. I'm not proud of it. .......Ok? Well I am, because I know I'm right.



Tristan da Cunha	Dec 2 2007, 06:23 PM Post #189
Science and Industry Posts: 6,792 Group: Veterans Member #86 Joined: November 1, 2004	Another interesting historical development to ponder: George W. Bush has singlehandedly done more damage to Christianity in Iraq than 1,300 years of Islamic rule could ever do. Saddam Hussein was tolerant of Christians - hell, his foreign minister, Tariq Aziz, was a Roman Catholic. Yes, Tariq Aziz was the guy with the thick glasses and little mustache and some of us may recall seeing his mug on TV all the time back when Saddam was in power. But now that Saddam Hussein - a secular ruler and sworn enemy of Osama bin Laden - has fallen out of power in Iraq, George W. Bush tore down the separation of mosque and state in Iraq, and personally handed the country over to the Islamic fundamentalists. On a silver platter. The Christian population of Iraq, which had always been protected by Saddam, are now at the mercy of radical Islamic ayatollahs that America put into power. There used to be roughly 1.2 million Christians in Iraq, now that number is rapidly dwindling. Ironically, many of them are fleeing to Syria, another of Bush's bogeymen, but which itself is also tolerant of Christians. http://www.catholic.org/international/inte...ry.php?id=26070



Kasnyia	Dec 2 2007, 06:28 PM Post #190
Chairman of the Bank Posts: 12,339 Group: Veterans Member #164 Joined: July 15, 2005	Racaria, I suggest you read my post and quietly change your tone in your arguement. Being arrogant about your points, correct or not, will not earn you any respect you you can be damned sure that you won't be convincing. And if you don't care to do that then I ask, why argue at all?



Rhadamanthus	Dec 2 2007, 06:30 PM Post #191
Legitimist Posts: 12,945 Group: Admin Member #19 Joined: January 13, 2004	The Holy Empire of Racaria Dec 2 2007, 05:23 PM Quote: If the U.N. passes resolutions, only the U.N. has the right to decide when they are violated and when to enforce them. It is irrational to cite resolutions that the U.N. refused to enforce as a rationale for going to war. The U.N. did try to enforce those resolutions against Saddam, it then proceeded to destroy what was left of its credibility and respect by passing more resolutions to enforce those previously passed resolutions. All the U.N. does anymore is write strongly worded letters to whomever pisses it off, over and over again. And when it does send its blue helmets, they are usually incompetent, and willfully negelectful of their mission, as the U.N. soldiers who kidnapped and raped innocent women and children in Darfur were, and probably still are. Please don't get me started on the U.N. Quote: Seriously, I know where you are coming from. I'd have made that same argument five years ago when we were discussing going to war. I'm not proud of it. .......Ok? Well I am, because I know I'm right. No, don't you get me started on the U.N. I think the U.N. should be abolished, or if we can't get that, then the United States should withdraw. But you can't logically cite U.N. resolutions to justify an action which the U.N. did not approve. The United Nations did not support the Iraq war, so it is logically dissonant to attempt to use U.N. resolutions as part of an argument in favor of it. Here's a question: do you support the right of the U.N. to interfere in the internal affairs of sovereign nations? Do you support the idea that the U.N. can regulate what countries can and cannot have what technologies? I don't support either of those things.



Kasnyia	Dec 2 2007, 06:31 PM Post #192
Chairman of the Bank Posts: 12,339 Group: Veterans Member #164 Joined: July 15, 2005	Don't open up yet another can of worms, RD. Let him get through the other one first, even if he IS doing it with crazed zeal.



Tristan da Cunha	Dec 2 2007, 06:32 PM Post #193
Science and Industry Posts: 6,792 Group: Veterans Member #86 Joined: November 1, 2004	The Holy Empire of Racaria Dec 2 2007, 06:23 PM The U.N. did try to enforce those resolutions against Saddam, it then proceeded to destroy what was left of its credibility and respect by passing more resolutions to enforce those previously passed resolutions. All the U.N. does anymore is write strongly worded letters to whomever pisses it off, over and over again. And when it does send its blue helmets, they are usually incompetent, and willfully negelectful of their mission, as the U.N. soldiers who kidnapped and raped innocent women and children in Darfur were, and probably still are. Please don't get me started on the U.N. Why even get the UN involved in this? Why couldn't we have been allies with Saddam in 2002? We were pratically his butt-buddies in the 1980s, we could've been friends with him again! As RD pointed out earlier, the same situation comes up with Iran. The US had the opportunity to befriend Iran after 9/11 and Iran offered to help us catch Osama. But no, Bush decided that we did not want to maximize our chances of victory, instead Bush decided we should waste as much American blood and money as possible by backstabbing potential friends at the same time as ignoring our real enemies.



lebowski2123	Dec 2 2007, 06:33 PM Post #194
Resident? Posts: 1,535 Group: Members Member #257 Joined: July 22, 2006	The UN.



The Holy Empire of Racaria	Dec 2 2007, 06:35 PM Post #195
Sergeant Posts: 115 Group: Members Member #387 Joined: November 25, 2007	lebowski2123 Dec 2 2007, 06:10 PM Racaria, I'd like to talk to you a little bit about respect. You don't know me, and I haven't been active in this topic. However, I have been watching it unfold, thinking with every post that you would back down and see the error in your statements. It amazes me that you're still tossing insults and horrendous opinions. I'm going to say something now. I'd like to refer you to a mistake of my own, when I made a request under the thread Germans. I said something, my request was refuted, and rather then fighting a losing battle I conceded the point, shut up, and moved on. You need to do the same. There is not a single post of yours here which I agree with, and if you fancy yourself a conservative crusader I feel for you. I myself am one of the most conservative folks on the forum, yet even I see through the propaganda you have drank like so much scotch, giddy to spot the substance you seem to refer to as Quote: bullshit . I ask that instead of demanding that other folks here amend their head ware, you look at your own appearance: take off your tin-hat of ignorance. Opinions are fine and good, but what I do take exception to is your speaking of TC's post as "silly." Do you know that he is one of the most eloquent, intelligent and influential people of our forum here, and a man I have found both helpful and friendly in all our endeavors? Obviously not. His one post held more fact and sense then the sum of your posts have, yet all YOU can do is sling insult in the face of fact. You're wrong, and I'd be happy to list the 1,000 FACTUAL reasons why if my comrades hadn't already done so. These guys have looked up facts or already studied them, they have taken the time to formulate opinions so that we can hold a cohesive, educated discussion here, yet you think it's ok to come into this thread and make ignorant statements, statements you can only support through the use of verbal assault. Rescind your statements, and all will be forgiven with the passage of time. Continue to insult the senior members of this forum and spout a load of bullshit, and perhaps your time spent here will come to an end, a victim of your own stupidity. Right, you must be reading a different thread because I wasn't the one who started with the name calling. I am able to admit when I'm wrong, and will, if I'm ever proven wrong, which I doubt I will be here as the crap thrown against me here are usual talking points that terrorist apologists tend to spew, I am not suprised at all. My points are all long since proven facts you can find anywhere: -Saddam Hussein's regime was oppresive and its blatant defiance of the many U.N. resolutions passed against it, coupled with Saddam's hatred of America is more than enough proof that it couldn't be trusted with WMDs. - If we run away from the Middle East, orgs. like Al-Qaida will grow and flourish unopposed again, and will again bring attacks worse than 9/11 to America. - The U.N. is unable to enforce its own resolutions and looks to the U.S.A. to do so alot of the time. The U.N. is a joke that's not funny anymore. - Most Islamic governments of the Middle East have nowhere near the political and civil rights we do because of their strict, literal interpretations and enforcement of the Koran. With all due respect leb, don't try to tell me what to do. This is all stuff I've refuted many times before.



Kasnyia	Dec 2 2007, 06:39 PM Post #196
Chairman of the Bank Posts: 12,339 Group: Veterans Member #164 Joined: July 15, 2005	Let me ask you...Saddam may have been oppressive and everything else you said, but can you tell me what the difference is between Saddam's Iraq and Mushharraf's Pakistan, who is an American ally? Also, only American friends should have nukes? Russia would disagree. Vehemanantly.



Rhadamanthus	Dec 2 2007, 06:41 PM Post #197
Legitimist Posts: 12,945 Group: Admin Member #19 Joined: January 13, 2004	Kasnyia Dec 2 2007, 05:31 PM Don't open up yet another can of worms, RD. Let him get through the other one first, even if he IS doing it with crazed zeal. Kas, I appreciate what you are saying, but I'm not opening anything new. He is the one who cited Hussein's refusal to accept U.N. investigators, and the U.N. resolutions against Hussein. I am merely following that thread of the argument. It is an important one. Look at his last post; it contains the same cognitive dissonance and lack of rationality, covered by such offensive and unjustified insults as "terrorist apologists."



lebowski2123	Dec 2 2007, 06:43 PM Post #198
Resident? Posts: 1,535 Group: Members Member #257 Joined: July 22, 2006	Listen to yourself. Better yet, let's examine the facts you have presented: Quote: Saddam Hussein's regime was oppresive and its blatant defiance of the many U.N. resolutions passed against it, coupled with Saddam's hatred of America is more than enough proof that it couldn't be trusted with WMDs. "Oppressive" and "blatant" and what I like to call "feeling words." This is because they describe an emotion you feel about a certain topic. This is not fact, it's opinion which you percieve as fact because you are obviously very narcissistic on an intellectual level. Quote: If we run away from the Middle East, orgs. like Al-Qaida will grow and flourish unopposed again, and will again bring attacks worse than 9/11 to America. This is not a fact, this is an opinion. I would call it a hypothesis, but the reality is that this opinion isn't an educated one, and thus hypothesis doesn't really fit. Quote: The U.N. is unable to enforce its own resolutions and looks to the U.S.A. to do so alot of the time. The U.N. is a joke that's not funny anymore. True, but your opinions are a joke and aren't funny anymore, yet you still support them. Hypocrite? Quote: Most Islamic governments of the Middle East have nowhere near the political and civil rights we do because of their strict, literal interpretations and enforcement of the Koran What a westerner. Your perception is relative, and it's obvious that you live in the United States or some other western, democratic nation. Iran is relatively progressive for the region, just as Canada is relatively progressive for North America. Quote: With all due respect leb, don't try to tell me what to do. This is all stuff I've refuted many times before. With all due respect, I think you need to put a lid on it and seriously re-evaluate your ego's size.



Kasnyia	Dec 2 2007, 06:45 PM Post #199
Chairman of the Bank Posts: 12,339 Group: Veterans Member #164 Joined: July 15, 2005	There is enough bait to go around.... Don't bother with him like that, leb. That's like trying to put Franken and Hannity in the same room together and having civil discourse.



Rhadamanthus	Dec 2 2007, 06:46 PM Post #200
Legitimist Posts: 12,945 Group: Admin Member #19 Joined: January 13, 2004	The Holy Empire of Racaria Dec 2 2007, 05:35 PM My points are all long since proven facts you can find anywhere: -Saddam Hussein's regime was oppresive and its blatant defiance of the many U.N. resolutions passed against it, coupled with Saddam's hatred of America is more than enough proof that it couldn't be trusted with WMDs. - If we run away from the Middle East, orgs. like Al-Qaida will grow and flourish unopposed again, and will again bring attacks worse than 9/11 to America. - The U.N. is unable to enforce its own resolutions and looks to the U.S.A. to do so alot of the time. The U.N. is a joke that's not funny anymore. - Most Islamic governments of the Middle East have nowhere near the political and civil rights we do because of their strict, literal interpretations and enforcement of the Koran. With all due respect leb, don't try to tell me what to do. This is all stuff I've refuted many times before. 1. So what if it was oppressive or in defiance of the U.N.? You don't approve of the U.N. Why should you care? And actually Saddam loved America until we stabbed him in the back in the early 90s. Get your facts straight. 2. Your second point can't be a proven fact since it involves a hypothetical. 3. If the U.N. is a joke, why should anybody enforce its resolutions? If the U.N. is a joke, why should Iraq have to obey it? 4. Who gives a shit about what rights there are in those countries? That has nothing to do with the issue. Why should my friend go to Iraq and risk his life so that some person half a world away has the right to choose not to vote? I supported the war in Afghanistan as an actual war to root out Osama bin Laden. The Iraq war undermined that effort.

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