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The Israel-Lebanon situation; As I understand it
Topic Started: Jul 16 2006, 03:44 PM (477 Views)
Syawla
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Catholic Europe
Jul 18 2006, 12:47 PM
Nope, they've committed a genocide against Palestinians and I will forever stick to that comment.

Would you care to prove the validity of your statement? And don't respond with "you first" as it is the job of the prosecution to prove BEYOND ALL REASONABLE DOUBT that a charge is justified.
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Wadj
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Syawla
Jul 18 2006, 07:28 PM
Catholic Europe
Jul 18 2006, 12:47 PM
Nope, they've committed a genocide against Palestinians and I will forever stick to that comment.

Would you care to prove the validity of your statement? And don't respond with "you first" as it is the job of the prosecution to prove BEYOND ALL REASONABLE DOUBT that a charge is justified.

Syawla's got a point. In this situation, hezbollah was clearly the agressor. The conflict in the Middle East is far to complicated to reduce to a mere dismissal of one side or the other.

Both the Israelis and those fighting against them have committed horrible atrocities.

I will say this, however:
When given the opportunity to elect their leaders, the Palestinians elected Hamas, a terrorist organization.

Israel elected a moderate party that began planned withdrawals from contested territories, and made a real effort to make peace.
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Syawla
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Israel has withdrawn from many areas of the Gaza strip, the very minimum it was required to do, to be sure.

May I ask, what the Palestinians have done in return? Such as, recognising Israel's right to exist for example.

I am no pro-Israeli, but am a pure international realist and in this fight I can see no wrongdoing on the part of Israel in WHAT it is doing NOT how and to WHAT EXTENT is doing it.
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Wadj
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Syawla
Jul 18 2006, 07:42 PM
Israel has withdrawn from many areas of the Gaza strip, the very minimum it was required to do, to be sure.

May I ask, what the Palestinians have done in return? Such as, recognising Israel's right to exist for example.

I am no pro-Israeli, but am a pure international realist and in this fight I can see no wrongdoing on the part of Israel in WHAT it is doing NOT how and to WHAT EXTENT is doing it.

I couldn't agree with you more Syawla.
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Catholic Europe
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Israel is a terrorist nation itself. It terrorises the Palestinians and it terrorises Christian and Muslim Lebanese.
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East Anarx
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Anarchitect

Every nation in the world is a terrorist nation.
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Catholic Europe
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Israel is the worst.
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East Anarx
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No, there are several that are worse than Israel. Lebanon is one of them. North Korea. Cuba. Iraq, until just recently, under Saddam, now under the US gov, still terrorises and oppresses. Iran. Libya. Sudan.
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Wadj
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Don't forget Russia, Algeria, China, Uganda, and a plethora of others.
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East Anarx
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Wadj
Jul 19 2006, 03:27 PM
Don't forget Russia, Algeria, China, Uganda, and a plethora of others.

Indeed.
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Catholic Europe
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With Israel as number one.
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Rhadamanthus
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Catholic Europe
Jul 19 2006, 05:23 PM
With Israel as number one.

More than Sudan? Are you ****ing kidding me?
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Quaon
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A Prince Amoung Men-Shoot First and Ask Questions Later
Catholic Europe
Jul 19 2006, 02:36 PM
Israel is the worst.

CE, screw you. Isreal has never struck first except in the six day war, in which they were defending their existance from an attack from Egypt. The Isrealis were attacked, they attacked back. You attack me, I attack you. And if a government is so incompetant to let a terrorist group occupy their borders, they do not deserve to govern. Hezballah attacked Isreali cities with rockets. Isreal retalated in kind, but at least had the deceny to alert the civilians to stay the fuck away from the places where they were gonna bomb. Isreal ain't perfect, but it isn't a "terrorist nation".

You want to know what I think, CE? I think you are saying this because you hate Jews. I've read posts from before I was here, when you were a "conservative Catholic" (though I doubt you ever were one, to be honest, as you like to ignore all scripture, no fornication, Isreal is the Jews promised land, etc. I'm not saying the scripture is right, but I doubt you ever were really conservative, maybe not even Catholic). You even said that it was the holocaust was the Jews fault. Let me ask you, do you demand that the international community invade the US to stop the atrocities in the MidEast that the US purpetrates when they aren't even fighting for their very survival? How about the UK?

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Noriega
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As a nation, Israel is a brute, plain and simple. They are very heavy-handed and sometimes excessive. But they are not sinister and not evil. They are peaceful unless roused, and although they will commit atrocities if instigated, it is technically the victim's fault because Israel is defending itself, no matter if the defense is excessive. Yes Israel has committed atrocities, but never genocide. The Palestinians want all the Israelis dead or gone, the Israelis want to live in peace. I'd say the Palestinians are worse. And RD has a point, administrations like the former ones of Rwanda, Cambodia, Iraq, and Serbia, as well as the current Sudanese government, are actively slaughtering whole sectors of their populace. They are all far worse than Israel. Far worse.
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New Harumf
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Norightsia
Jul 19 2006, 07:17 PM
As a nation, Israel is a brute, plain and simple. They are very heavy-handed and sometimes excessive. But they are not sinister and not evil. They are peaceful unless roused, and although they will commit atrocities if instigated, it is technically the victim's fault because Israel is defending itself, no matter if the defense is excessive. Yes Israel has committed atrocities, but never genocide. The Palestinians want all the Israelis dead or gone, the Israelis want to live in peace. I'd say the Palestinians are worse. And RD has a point, administrations like the former ones of Rwanda, Cambodia, Iraq, and Serbia, as well as the current Sudanese government, are actively slaughtering whole sectors of their populace. They are all far worse than Israel. Far worse.

OK, you've redeemed yourself here a little bit, Midlands boy!! :D
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Noriega
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New Harumf
Jul 19 2006, 07:27 PM
Norightsia
Jul 19 2006, 07:17 PM
As a nation, Israel is a brute, plain and simple. They are very heavy-handed and sometimes excessive. But they are not sinister and not evil. They are peaceful unless roused, and although they will commit atrocities if instigated, it is technically the victim's fault because Israel is defending itself, no matter if the defense is excessive. Yes Israel has committed atrocities, but never genocide. The Palestinians want all the Israelis dead or gone, the Israelis want to live in peace. I'd say the Palestinians are worse. And RD has a point, administrations like the former ones of Rwanda, Cambodia, Iraq, and Serbia, as well as the current Sudanese government, are actively slaughtering whole sectors of their populace. They are all far worse than Israel. Far worse.

OK, you've redeemed yourself here a little bit, Midlands boy!! :D

I have no knowledge of needing redemption lol. B)
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Syawla
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Catholic Europe
Jul 19 2006, 11:35 AM
Israel is a terrorist nation itself. It terrorises the Palestinians and it terrorises Christian and Muslim Lebanese.

Again, prove it.
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Quaon
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Catholic Europe
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Quaon
Jul 19 2006, 05:35 PM
You want to know what I think, CE? I think you are saying this because you hate Jews. I've read posts from before I was here, when you were a "conservative Catholic" (though I doubt you ever were one, to be honest, as you like to ignore all scripture, no fornication, Isreal is the Jews promised land, etc. I'm not saying the scripture is right, but I doubt you ever were really conservative, maybe not even Catholic). You even said that it was the holocaust was the Jews fault. Let me ask you, do you demand that the international community invade the US to stop the atrocities in the MidEast that the US purpetrates when they aren't even fighting for their very survival? How about the UK?

You want to attack my sexuality and religion again, I will fucking make your time on here unbearable. Fuck off. :angry:

Furthermore, I live with a Jewish girl....fuck that up your arse (and I hope it hurts).

I have also never said I hate Jews, and I don't hate Jews nor blame them for the thigns Israel does. I hate all Zionists equally. I hate the Christian Evangelical Group currently in Washington which is campaigning on behalf of the murderous Israeli government. I have no problem with a Jewish perso as long as they are not Zionist.

And you start saying that I don't follow the Church or anything with regards to Jews - well to be honest that's quite true. The Church has only ever persecuted Jews.

Again, if you slyly insult me because of the conflict of my religion and sexuality then I will force you off here.
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Wadj
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Quaon
Jul 20 2006, 06:15 AM

WTF is that supposed to mean?
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Tristan da Cunha
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It's supposed to be satire making fun of people who say Israel is "unjustly occupying Muslim land", since in reality Israel is only a tiny sliver of land, with no plans for expansion.
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Wadj
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Trilateral Commission
Jul 20 2006, 11:49 AM
It's supposed to be satire making fun of people who say Israel is "unjustly occupying Muslim land", since in reality Israel is only a tiny sliver of land, with no plans for expansion.

Ah, I see. I'm very slow. They forgot Malaysia, the Phillipines, and Indonesia.
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Nag Ehgoeg
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Norightsia
Jul 19 2006, 07:17 PM
As a nation, Israel is a brute, plain and simple. They are very heavy-handed and sometimes excessive. But they are not sinister and not evil. They are peaceful unless roused, and although they will commit atrocities if instigated, it is technically the victim's fault because Israel is defending itself, no matter if the defense is excessive. Yes Israel has committed atrocities, but never genocide. The Palestinians want all the Israelis dead or gone, the Israelis want to live in peace. I'd say the Palestinians are worse. And RD has a point, administrations like the former ones of Rwanda, Cambodia, Iraq, and Serbia, as well as the current Sudanese government, are actively slaughtering whole sectors of their populace. They are all far worse than Israel. Far worse.

Israel = Teh USA.

Brutish, easy to blame things on, hated by the world, loved by Americans.

In this case, I'd say the over-reacted. Their abject violence against civilians could easily be labled as genocide. That said, it could be labled as self defence.

Depends on your point of view.

I stand by my "nuke 'em all and let their gods sort 'em out". But Israel isn't that bad compared to some of the nations out there.
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New Harumf
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Quaon
Jul 19 2006, 05:35 PM
Catholic Europe
Jul 19 2006, 02:36 PM
Israel is the worst.

CE, screw you. Isreal has never struck first except in the six day war, in which they were defending their existance from an attack from Egypt. The Isrealis were attacked, they attacked back. You attack me, I attack you. And if a government is so incompetant to let a terrorist group occupy their borders, they do not deserve to govern. Hezballah attacked Isreali cities with rockets. Isreal retalated in kind, but at least had the deceny to alert the civilians to stay the fuck away from the places where they were gonna bomb. Isreal ain't perfect, but it isn't a "terrorist nation".

You want to know what I think, CE? I think you are saying this because you hate Jews. I've read posts from before I was here, when you were a "conservative Catholic" (though I doubt you ever were one, to be honest, as you like to ignore all scripture, no fornication, Isreal is the Jews promised land, etc. I'm not saying the scripture is right, but I doubt you ever were really conservative, maybe not even Catholic). You even said that it was the holocaust was the Jews fault. Let me ask you, do you demand that the international community invade the US to stop the atrocities in the MidEast that the US purpetrates when they aren't even fighting for their very survival? How about the UK?

OK, cheap and unfair. I may agree with you, but how dare you attack CE's sexuality and faith in one sentence. I have known him here for many years longer than you, and he has been nothing but consistant about his faith. I might call him many things, but to call him a hypocrite is just out of line.

I ould like to se an apology, an editing of your original attack, and a rewording of your argument that is not a personal attack.

I do agree with you and disagree with CE, but he is not a rasist or a biggot.
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Catholic Europe
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Catholic Europe
Jul 20 2006, 11:28 AM
Quaon
Jul 19 2006, 05:35 PM
You even said that it was the holocaust was the Jews fault. 

Please give me the link for where I said that.
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