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Military Structure; An idea
Topic Started: Jul 16 2006, 10:41 AM (865 Views)
East Anarx
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Anarchitect

Sounds good. But could you come up with something for PDAs?
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Rhadamanthus
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Legitimist

Paradise: sounds good.

Esternarx: PDAs? Sorry, but I can't decipher the abbreviation. Could you please explain for me?
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Paradise
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Resident bureaucrat

Esternarx
Jul 16 2006, 07:06 PM
I'm for the math system all the way. Only problem I have is that if a country has no taxes, like Esternarx for instance, wants an army, how do they get one? Can you use the formula for a large corporation that is responsible for a certain portion of the economy or something like that?

I was thinking giving 10 CPs minimum to libertarian countries who don't tax at all. Well, if you've read my last post, that would be 10 PeaceCPs minimum.
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East Anarx
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Anarchitect

Sorry, PDAs are Private Defense Agencies. Its a term used a lot in anarcho-capitalist discussion and I forgot who I was talking to for a moment.
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Paradise
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Resident bureaucrat

PDAs would be too complicated to implement specifically. We can just say that CPs are used to buy from PDAs too.
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Rhadamanthus
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Legitimist

Esternarx
Jul 16 2006, 07:36 PM
Sorry, PDAs are Private Defense Agencies. Its a term used a lot in anarcho-capitalist discussion and I forgot who I was talking to for a moment.

Thanks!
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East Anarx
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Anarchitect

Paradise
Jul 16 2006, 06:39 PM
PDAs would be too complicated to implement specifically. We can just say that CPs are used to buy from PDAs too.

That sounds reasonable.
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Quaon
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A Prince Amoung Men-Shoot First and Ask Questions Later
Paradise
Jul 16 2006, 06:28 PM
I just thought about this... Maybe we could have two formulas: one for peace time and one for war time.

In peace time, the correct formula would be this one:
Population*EconomicLevel*(NSTaxRate-0.2*NSTaxRate²)*MilitaryBudget = PeaceCPs

PeaceCPs would be Ğ professionnal ğ CPs, that means they are used to sustain a professional army / navy / air force.

In war time, it is clear that any government can raise the taxes and allocate a higher proportion of the budget into Defence... So I was thinking, maybe they should be able increase both their tax rates and Defence budget proportion. This formula would calculate the WarCPs:

Population*EconomicLevel*(WarTaxRate-0.2*WarTaxRate²)*WarBudget - PeaceCPs = WarCPs

where WarTaxRate and WarBudget are arbitrarily chosen by the player.

That means, all CPs exceeding PeaceCPs would be WarCPs and could be used for conscript units only. Of course, you could buy conscript units with PeaceCPs, but it would cost you less than with WarCPs. In other other words, a PeaceCP would worth more than a WarCP. For example: 1 PeaceCP = 2 WarCPs for a fixed price of conscript unit.

What do you guys think?

No! Not more math!
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East Anarx
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Anarchitect

Quaon
Jul 16 2006, 06:45 PM
Paradise
Jul 16 2006, 06:28 PM
I just thought about this... Maybe we could have two formulas: one for peace time and one for war time.

In peace time, the correct formula would be this one:
Population*EconomicLevel*(NSTaxRate-0.2*NSTaxRate²)*MilitaryBudget = PeaceCPs

PeaceCPs would be Ğ professionnal ğ CPs, that means they are used to sustain a professional army / navy / air force.

In war time, it is clear that any government can raise the taxes and allocate a higher proportion of the budget into Defence... So I was thinking, maybe they should be able increase both their tax rates and Defence budget proportion. This formula would calculate the WarCPs:

Population*EconomicLevel*(WarTaxRate-0.2*WarTaxRate²)*WarBudget - PeaceCPs = WarCPs

where WarTaxRate and WarBudget are arbitrarily chosen by the player.

That means, all CPs exceeding PeaceCPs would be WarCPs and could be used for conscript units only. Of course, you could buy conscript units with PeaceCPs, but it would cost you less than with WarCPs. In other other words, a PeaceCP would worth more than a WarCP. For example: 1 PeaceCP = 2 WarCPs for a fixed price of conscript unit.

What do you guys think?

No! Not more math!

God Quaon, I failed the second half of Algebra I and even I can figure this out.
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Paradise
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Resident bureaucrat

:lol:

The two formulas are the same, except you have one more operation (substraction) for the last one :lol:

Come on Quaon, maths are a wonderful tool :lol:
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Quaon
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A Prince Amoung Men-Shoot First and Ask Questions Later
Esternarx
Jul 16 2006, 06:47 PM
Quaon
Jul 16 2006, 06:45 PM
Paradise
Jul 16 2006, 06:28 PM
I just thought about this... Maybe we could have two formulas: one for peace time and one for war time.

In peace time, the correct formula would be this one:
Population*EconomicLevel*(NSTaxRate-0.2*NSTaxRate²)*MilitaryBudget = PeaceCPs

PeaceCPs would be Ğ professionnal ğ CPs, that means they are used to sustain a professional army / navy / air force.

In war time, it is clear that any government can raise the taxes and allocate a higher proportion of the budget into Defence... So I was thinking, maybe they should be able increase both their tax rates and Defence budget proportion. This formula would calculate the WarCPs:

Population*EconomicLevel*(WarTaxRate-0.2*WarTaxRate²)*WarBudget - PeaceCPs = WarCPs

where WarTaxRate and WarBudget are arbitrarily chosen by the player.

That means, all CPs exceeding PeaceCPs would be WarCPs and could be used for conscript units only. Of course, you could buy conscript units with PeaceCPs, but it would cost you less than with WarCPs. In other other words, a PeaceCP would worth more than a WarCP. For example: 1 PeaceCP = 2 WarCPs for a fixed price of conscript unit.

What do you guys think?

No! Not more math!

God Quaon, I failed the second half of Algebra I and even I can figure this out.

It's not the math itself, I can figure that out. I just really want to keep this story based, no math shit.
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Paradise
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Resident bureaucrat

Quaon
Jul 16 2006, 07:50 PM
Esternarx
Jul 16 2006, 06:47 PM
Quaon
Jul 16 2006, 06:45 PM
Paradise
Jul 16 2006, 06:28 PM
I just thought about this... Maybe we could have two formulas: one for peace time and one for war time.

In peace time, the correct formula would be this one:
Population*EconomicLevel*(NSTaxRate-0.2*NSTaxRate²)*MilitaryBudget = PeaceCPs

PeaceCPs would be Ğ professionnal ğ CPs, that means they are used to sustain a professional army / navy / air force.

In war time, it is clear that any government can raise the taxes and allocate a higher proportion of the budget into Defence... So I was thinking, maybe they should be able increase both their tax rates and Defence budget proportion. This formula would calculate the WarCPs:

Population*EconomicLevel*(WarTaxRate-0.2*WarTaxRate²)*WarBudget - PeaceCPs = WarCPs

where WarTaxRate and WarBudget are arbitrarily chosen by the player.

That means, all CPs exceeding PeaceCPs would be WarCPs and could be used for conscript units only. Of course, you could buy conscript units with PeaceCPs, but it would cost you less than with WarCPs. In other other words, a PeaceCP would worth more than a WarCP. For example: 1 PeaceCP = 2 WarCPs for a fixed price of conscript unit.

What do you guys think?

No! Not more math!

God Quaon, I failed the second half of Algebra I and even I can figure this out.

It's not the math itself, I can figure that out. I just really want to keep this story based, no math shit.

You can see the maths more like a guideline than maths ^_^
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Quaon
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A Prince Amoung Men-Shoot First and Ask Questions Later
Paradise
Jul 16 2006, 06:51 PM
Quaon
Jul 16 2006, 07:50 PM
Esternarx
Jul 16 2006, 06:47 PM
Quaon
Jul 16 2006, 06:45 PM
Paradise
Jul 16 2006, 06:28 PM
I just thought about this... Maybe we could have two formulas: one for peace time and one for war time.

In peace time, the correct formula would be this one:
Population*EconomicLevel*(NSTaxRate-0.2*NSTaxRate²)*MilitaryBudget = PeaceCPs

PeaceCPs would be Ğ professionnal ğ CPs, that means they are used to sustain a professional army / navy / air force.

In war time, it is clear that any government can raise the taxes and allocate a higher proportion of the budget into Defence... So I was thinking, maybe they should be able increase both their tax rates and Defence budget proportion. This formula would calculate the WarCPs:

Population*EconomicLevel*(WarTaxRate-0.2*WarTaxRate²)*WarBudget - PeaceCPs = WarCPs

where WarTaxRate and WarBudget are arbitrarily chosen by the player.

That means, all CPs exceeding PeaceCPs would be WarCPs and could be used for conscript units only. Of course, you could buy conscript units with PeaceCPs, but it would cost you less than with WarCPs. In other other words, a PeaceCP would worth more than a WarCP. For example: 1 PeaceCP = 2 WarCPs for a fixed price of conscript unit.

What do you guys think?

No! Not more math!

God Quaon, I failed the second half of Algebra I and even I can figure this out.

It's not the math itself, I can figure that out. I just really want to keep this story based, no math shit.

You can see the maths more like a guideline than maths ^_^

If its a guideline, it shouldn't be compulsorary.
Edit: Also, this is going to scare away the newbs.
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Paradise
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Resident bureaucrat

I don't think we intend to make it compulsory. I mean, it's more a tool to prevent god-modding than anything else.

It may also proves useful if we indeed want to make a world war. Bilateral wars don't need formulas when both sides agree on how the war is going on. However, for multilateral wars it is harder to get a multilateral consensus.
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New Harumf
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Bloodthirsty Unicorn
Paradise
Jul 16 2006, 06:28 PM
I just thought about this... Maybe we could have two formulas: one for peace time and one for war time.

In peace time, the correct formula would be this one:
Population*EconomicLevel*(NSTaxRate-0.2*NSTaxRate²)*MilitaryBudget = PeaceCPs

PeaceCPs would be Ğ professionnal ğ CPs, that means they are used to sustain a professional army / navy / air force.

In war time, it is clear that any government can raise the taxes and allocate a higher proportion of the budget into Defence... So I was thinking, maybe they should be able increase both their tax rates and Defence budget proportion. This formula would calculate the WarCPs:

Population*EconomicLevel*(WarTaxRate-0.2*WarTaxRate²)*WarBudget - PeaceCPs = WarCPs

where WarTaxRate and WarBudget are arbitrarily chosen by the player.

That means, all CPs exceeding PeaceCPs would be WarCPs and could be used for conscript units only. Of course, you could buy conscript units with PeaceCPs, but it would cost you less than with WarCPs. In other other words, a PeaceCP would worth more than a WarCP. For example: 1 PeaceCP = 2 WarCPs for a fixed price of conscript unit.

What do you guys think?

No, too complicated. Just give me a % of population, and an economic factor relating to quality of troups. Thank you.
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Noriega
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Resident Hobbit
New Harumf
Jul 16 2006, 08:13 PM
Paradise
Jul 16 2006, 06:28 PM
I just thought about this... Maybe we could have two formulas: one for peace time and one for war time.

In peace time, the correct formula would be this one:
Population*EconomicLevel*(NSTaxRate-0.2*NSTaxRate²)*MilitaryBudget = PeaceCPs

PeaceCPs would be Ğ professionnal ğ CPs, that means they are used to sustain a professional army / navy / air force.

In war time, it is clear that any government can raise the taxes and allocate a higher proportion of the budget into Defence... So I was thinking, maybe they should be able increase both their tax rates and Defence budget proportion. This formula would calculate the WarCPs:

Population*EconomicLevel*(WarTaxRate-0.2*WarTaxRate²)*WarBudget - PeaceCPs = WarCPs

where WarTaxRate and WarBudget are arbitrarily chosen by the player.

That means, all CPs exceeding PeaceCPs would be WarCPs and could be used for conscript units only. Of course, you could buy conscript units with PeaceCPs, but it would cost you less than with WarCPs. In other other words, a PeaceCP would worth more than a WarCP. For example: 1 PeaceCP = 2 WarCPs for a fixed price of conscript unit.

What do you guys think?

No, too complicated. Just give me a % of population, and an economic factor relating to quality of troups. Thank you.

Amen, baby Jesus, Hallelujah!
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Nag Ehgoeg
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The Devil's Advocate

Paradise
Jul 16 2006, 07:03 PM
I don't think we intend to make it compulsory. I mean, it's more a tool to prevent god-modding than anything else.

It may also proves useful if we indeed want to make a world war. Bilateral wars don't need formulas when both sides agree on how the war is going on. However, for multilateral wars it is harder to get a multilateral consensus.

This post gets my "Amen, baby Jesus, Hallelujah!"

Much as I feel my principles dying as I state this. But a war time budget when nations can just hike up their military spending with little to no concequence is stupid.

Paradise is our worlds greatest military power. (No problem saying that.)
This will never change. (Starting to feel queezy.)
I propose a system where Paradise gets 1000 CP. (Feeling better.)
All other nations shall recieve CP based on the percentage their military spending is compared to Paradise. (Feeling good.)
We use the Third Geek stats to determine this. (Retches violently all over the floor.)

Under this system:

Paradise
Defence Budget $90,508,913,826,660.02
1000 CP

Catholic Europe
Defence Budget $39,356,217,198,909.65
435 CP

Nag Ehgoeg
Defence Budget $11,535,053,299,157.85
127 CP

Of course this doesn't factor in population. Thus instead of say 10 CP buying 1000 troops, 10 CP would buy 0.1% of your population in basic ground troops.

That any better for you Harumf?
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Noriega
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Resident Hobbit
Oh God no! Thats awful! :o
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flumes
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CLEVELAND ROCKS!
Paradise
Jul 16 2006, 01:59 PM
The formula in question (for point 2):

Population*EconomicLevel*(NSTaxRate-0.2*NSTaxRate²)*MilitaryBudget=CPs (rounded)


There is also one that doesn't take care of the economy type (i.e. no NSTaxRate):

Population*EconomicLevel*MilitaryBudget=CPs (rounded)


Variables

Population: Your population in millions

EconomicLevel:
Code:
 
1      = Frightening
0.9333 = All-Consuming
0.8667 = Powerhouse
0.8    = Thriving
0.7333 = Very Strong
0.6667 = Strong
0.6    = Good
0.5333 = Fair
0.4667 = Reasonable
0.4    = Developing
0.3333 = Struggling
0.2667 = Weak
0.2    = Fragile
0.1333 = Basket Case
0.0667 = Imploded


NSTaxRate: Your NationStates tax rate on a scale from 0 to 1 (ex.: 5% = 0.05, 50% = 0.5, 100% = 1)

MilitaryBudget: The proportion, on a scale from 0 to 1 (ex.: 5% = 0.05, 50% = 0.5, 100% = 1), of your national budget going to Defence. This is found here: http://www.nationstates.net/cgi-bin/nationdata.cgi/nation=X
where X is your nation's name.

CPs: Stands for "Command points" and would be used to buy a fixed number of troops/vehicles/planes/ships.


Fixed values
The 0.0667 modifier for EconomicLevel is equal to 1/15 (there are 15 economic strenghts on NationStates). It would be possible to make the modifier harsher by replacing the numerator with a number > 1.

The first formula includes inefficiency from collecting a too high proportion of taxes. For 100% income taxes, you effectively collect 80% (1-0.2). By changing "0.2" to a value X, we can add inefficiency (X>0.2) or remove some inefficiency (X<0.2).

Those values are arguable...


Examples using both formulas

Paradise
1st formula:
7778*1*(1-0.2*1²)*0.53 = 3298 CPs
2nd formula:
7778*1*0.53 = 4122 CPs

Nag Ehgoeg
1st formula:
7811*0.8667*(0.06-0.2*0.06²)*0.29 = 116 CPs
2nd  formula
7811*0.8667*0.29 = 1963 CPs

Catholic Europe
1st formula:
7698*1*(1-0.2*1²)*0.21 = 1293 CPs
2nd formula:
7698*1*0.21 = 1617 CPs

I would love to see that used.

Honestly I'm so bad at "gauging" (sp) my sized military. I would love more structure.

Plus, my econony is amazing!!! :lol: :P B)

But I have no taxes :cry:

:lol:
I am to easily amused!!!
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Paradise
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Resident bureaucrat

Nag Ehgoeg
Jul 17 2006, 06:39 PM
Paradise is our worlds greatest military power. (No problem saying that.)
This will never change. (Starting to feel queezy.)
I propose a system where Paradise gets 1000 CP. (Feeling better.)
All other nations shall recieve CP based on the percentage their military spending is compared to Paradise. (Feeling good.)
We use the Third Geek stats to determine this. (Retches violently all over the floor.)

Under this system:

Paradise
Defence Budget $90,508,913,826,660.02
1000 CP

Catholic Europe
Defence Budget $39,356,217,198,909.65
435 CP

Nag Ehgoeg
Defence Budget $11,535,053,299,157.85
127 CP

Of course this doesn't factor in population. Thus instead of say 10 CP buying 1000 troops, 10 CP would buy 0.1% of your population in basic ground troops.

That any better for you Harumf?

I can agree with that, and I feel honored to be the "reference nation" :lol:
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New Harumf
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Bloodthirsty Unicorn
Nag Ehgoeg
Jul 17 2006, 05:39 PM
Paradise
Jul 16 2006, 07:03 PM
I don't think we intend to make it compulsory. I mean, it's more a tool to prevent god-modding than anything else.

It may also proves useful if we indeed want to make a world war. Bilateral wars don't need formulas when both sides agree on how the war is going on. However, for multilateral wars it is harder to get a multilateral consensus.

This post gets my "Amen, baby Jesus, Hallelujah!"

Much as I feel my principles dying as I state this. But a war time budget when nations can just hike up their military spending with little to no concequence is stupid.

Paradise is our worlds greatest military power. (No problem saying that.)
This will never change. (Starting to feel queezy.)
I propose a system where Paradise gets 1000 CP. (Feeling better.)
All other nations shall recieve CP based on the percentage their military spending is compared to Paradise. (Feeling good.)
We use the Third Geek stats to determine this. (Retches violently all over the floor.)

Under this system:

Paradise
Defence Budget $90,508,913,826,660.02
1000 CP

Catholic Europe
Defence Budget $39,356,217,198,909.65
435 CP

Nag Ehgoeg
Defence Budget $11,535,053,299,157.85
127 CP

Of course this doesn't factor in population. Thus instead of say 10 CP buying 1000 troops, 10 CP would buy 0.1% of your population in basic ground troops.

That any better for you Harumf?

I believe somewhere I said I was going to shut up and listen until this is brought to a vote, but if there is math involved, I want someone to write a program to figure it out, and if no one can do it, I will.
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Noriega
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Resident Hobbit
Anything but the latest one, please! I'll have about 20 CP, I just know it! :o
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Assassin
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Field Marshal
You? I'll be one of the more weaker nations in Asia. :rolleyes:

Should be an interesting time.
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Noriega
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Resident Hobbit
The Assassination Army
Jul 17 2006, 08:14 PM
You? I'll be one of the more weaker nations in Asia. :rolleyes:

Should be an interesting time.

You may end up with 3.5, it's not a big deal to me! :P ^_^ I need to have a lot! More factors then just military budget to be fair. I vote for Paradise's system before he added War/Peace CPs. And keep the inaccuracy minimum dammit! :gnarkgnark:
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Quaon
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A Prince Amoung Men-Shoot First and Ask Questions Later
Esternarx
Jul 16 2006, 06:36 PM
Sorry, PDAs are Private Defense Agencies. Its a term used a lot in anarcho-capitalist discussion and I forgot who I was talking to for a moment.

You have an anarcho-capitalst forum? Link, please. :D
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