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The God Thread, Version 2.0
Topic Started: Jun 26 2006, 06:52 PM (1,079 Views)
Nag Ehgoeg
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The Devil's Advocate

Quaon
Jul 4 2006, 03:39 PM
Nag Ehgoeg
Jul 4 2006, 03:03 PM
Filo
Jul 3 2006, 06:50 PM
Pausl is clear; he said "If you belive that Jesus Christ is dead by crux, and after three day resurrected, you are safe" not "If you belive in the Apostles and the bibble"(i think is the Efesines or Corinthes letter).

Jesus is clear. He said "I have not come to take away from the teachings of the Torah", he said "the road to heaven is narrow and thorny, while the path to hell is wide", he said "whoever follows me should be ready to carry their own cross".

Belief is not a passive thing. It is an active thing. It requires commitment, dedication and action.

If you're willing to accept the statement of Paul (in the bible) then why not accept the other teachings of that same book?

Posted Image

Nag, let's examine why you are trying to say we have to believe the Old Testement if we believe the New Testement:

Hmm...you're trying to categorize all religious people as anti-science nuts. Is that it?

Oh for the love of god:

Jesus said he came to forfil the prophicies in the old testement.
It's believed by all major denominations that he came to forfil the old testement and correct it with gods message of love over man's message of vengence.
Jesus himself specifically states that the old testement is to be followed.

So yes, you do have to believe the Old Testement if you believe the New Testement. You don't, however, have to believe the Old Testement as the literal truth.

You can reconcile science and religion and say god created the world in 7 stages via evolution etc.

That's not the point I was trying to make.

The point I'm trying to make - and Filo is denying - is that to be a Christian you must follow the New Testement.

Filo wishes to counter by quoting the New Testement - which means if his arguement is valid, then so to is the New Testement, and thus the New Testement must be followed. Quoting the Apostles from the bible against quoting Jesus in the bible isn't really a sound base for an arguement IMO, but with blind belief and English not being his native language, he's battling on.

Now most religious people are anti-science nuts. The ones that are don't tend to be devout. That's not the point I was trying to make. I don't have any evidence to support that. I don't want to argue that case.

What I'm trying to say is:

If you think Jesus is your saviour, you need to follow Jesus's teachings with all your heart.
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Quaon
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A Prince Amoung Men-Shoot First and Ask Questions Later
Nag Ehgoeg
Jul 4 2006, 04:52 PM
Quaon
Jul 4 2006, 03:39 PM
Nag Ehgoeg
Jul 4 2006, 03:03 PM
Filo
Jul 3 2006, 06:50 PM
Pausl is clear; he said "If you belive that Jesus Christ is dead by crux, and after three day resurrected, you are safe" not "If you belive in the Apostles and the bibble"(i think is the Efesines or Corinthes letter).

Jesus is clear. He said "I have not come to take away from the teachings of the Torah", he said "the road to heaven is narrow and thorny, while the path to hell is wide", he said "whoever follows me should be ready to carry their own cross".

Belief is not a passive thing. It is an active thing. It requires commitment, dedication and action.

If you're willing to accept the statement of Paul (in the bible) then why not accept the other teachings of that same book?

Posted Image

Nag, let's examine why you are trying to say we have to believe the Old Testement if we believe the New Testement:

Hmm...you're trying to categorize all religious people as anti-science nuts. Is that it?

Oh for the love of god:

Jesus said he came to forfil the prophicies in the old testement.
It's believed by all major denominations that he came to forfil the old testement and correct it with gods message of love over man's message of vengence.
Jesus himself specifically states that the old testement is to be followed.

So yes, you do have to believe the Old Testement if you believe the New Testement. You don't, however, have to believe the Old Testement as the literal truth.

You can reconcile science and religion and say god created the world in 7 stages via evolution etc.

That's not the point I was trying to make.

The point I'm trying to make - and Filo is denying - is that to be a Christian you must follow the New Testement.

Filo wishes to counter by quoting the New Testement - which means if his arguement is valid, then so to is the New Testement, and thus the New Testement must be followed. Quoting the Apostles from the bible against quoting Jesus in the bible isn't really a sound base for an arguement IMO, but with blind belief and English not being his native language, he's battling on.

Now most religious people are anti-science nuts. The ones that are don't tend to be devout. That's not the point I was trying to make. I don't have any evidence to support that. I don't want to argue that case.

What I'm trying to say is:

If you think Jesus is your saviour, you need to follow Jesus's teachings with all your heart.

Oh, I see. I do not accept is as literal truth.
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Nag Ehgoeg
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The Devil's Advocate

I don't expect you to.
If you're Christian, I expect you to love Jesus and follow his teachings.

Do this and don't try to convert me or infringe on my civil liberties, and I have no problem with your choice of faith. Bully for you. Get down with your Fine Self! I hope your religion brings you happiness.

If you love Jesus, but don't follow his teachings, you are not a Christian. You can say you are, but you're not. Bully for you. Get down with your Fine Self! I hope your faith brings you happiness. Don't try to convert me or infringe on my civil liberties.
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Filo
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Nag Ehgoeg
Jul 4 2006, 05:40 PM
I don't expect you to.
If you're Christian, I expect you to love Jesus and follow his teachings.

Do this and don't try to convert me or infringe on my civil liberties, and I have no problem with your choice of faith. Bully for you. Get down with your Fine Self! I hope your religion brings you happiness.

If you love Jesus, but don't follow his teachings, you are not a Christian. You can say you are, but you're not. Bully for you. Get down with your Fine Self! I hope your faith brings you happiness. Don't try to convert me or infringe on my civil liberties.

It's not Work Nag.

He Fullfille the ancient testament but say also that he is more superior to them.
And Apostles repeting that is important only to belive in Jesus not, necessarely in his words or acts but only in him, dead and resurrected.
THEN churches, as associations of living men, creates rites and rituals to pray the lord and to fullfille the beliving in His dead and second comong; but neither are mandatory to consider a People Christians.
I work with priests and educators evrey days and i can tell you that baptization(from a roman Chatolic priest) is valid also if the Baptized person is not catechismized but has only express the will to belive in Jesus.
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Nag Ehgoeg
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The Devil's Advocate

Filo
Jul 5 2006, 02:15 PM
Nag Ehgoeg
Jul 4 2006, 05:40 PM
I don't expect you to.
If you're Christian, I expect you to love Jesus and follow his teachings.

Do this and don't try to convert me or infringe on my civil liberties, and I have no problem with your choice of faith. Bully for you. Get down with your Fine Self! I hope your religion brings you happiness.

If you love Jesus, but don't follow his teachings, you are not a Christian. You can say you are, but you're not. Bully for you. Get down with your Fine Self! I hope your faith brings you happiness. Don't try to convert me or infringe on my civil liberties.

It's not Work Nag.

He Fullfille the ancient testament but say also that he is more superior to them.
And Apostles repeting that is important only to belive in Jesus not, necessarely in his words or acts but only in him, dead and resurrected.
THEN churches, as associations of living men, creates rites and rituals to pray the lord and to fullfille the beliving in His dead and second comong; but neither are mandatory to consider a People Christians.
I work with priests and educators evrey days and i can tell you that baptization(from a roman Chatolic priest) is valid also if the Baptized person is not catechismized but has only express the will to belive in Jesus.

Catechismized?

Why is Baptism from a Roman Catholic Priest different from baptism from another religious leader?

Belief in Jesus is not "yeah, I think he existed". Belief in Jesus is putting you faith, love and trust in Him. When you love, trust and truely believe in someone then you will respect and follow their teachings.

I work with educators everyday, and I see my fair share of priests (I love our "Men in Black" as the Christ Church Chaplaincy call themselves). I tell you - you are wrong.

Jesus gave the Apostles the Lords Prayer. Saying associations of living men create rites and rituals is fundementally flawed.

Here's an idea for you: read the friggen bible.

When the Apostles repeat that you must believe in Jesus, they're not saying "believe of him" but "believe in him". Accept Jesus as your personal saviour. Accept Jesus as the teacher who will tell you the way to heaven. Accept him as your only way to salvation. Belief in Jesus is important. Belief that he lived is not salvation.

I'm not saying you must accept the Bible as literal truth. Nor am I saying that the Christian faith is not corrupted by inperfect human influence. I'm not saying Jesus isn't superior to the old testement - merely that he said it was to be followed and respected save where he had corrected it.

Lastly, I'm not saying it's work.

It shouldn't be work to love someone - whether they are god or not. If it's work, you're doing something wrong.

It should be a joy to follow Jesus's teachings.

I think you should re-evaluate your faith.

Belief in Christ is required to be Christian. Following his example is exactly what it means to be Christian.
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Quaon
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A Prince Amoung Men-Shoot First and Ask Questions Later
Nag Ehgoeg
Jul 5 2006, 04:48 PM

Here's an idea for you: read the friggen bible.



Which one? King James, New International, Catholic?
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Nag Ehgoeg
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The Devil's Advocate

Quaon
Jul 5 2006, 05:38 PM
Nag Ehgoeg
Jul 5 2006, 04:48 PM

Here's an idea for you: read the friggen bible.



Which one? King James, New International, Catholic?

There's a special Catholic Bible now?

The two I've read cover to cover are King James and Rainbow Goodnews. I'd suggest reading an as orginal translation as possible if you can get it. Other than that, it really doesn't matter which version you read - sure they all differ based on which church wrote it and why (because all Churches want to use the Bible to prove their own points) but all versions of the Bible stress you must have belief in Jesus rather than simply of his existance.
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Rhadamanthus
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Legitimist

Better yet, learn Koine and read some old manuscripts :P
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New Harumf
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Bloodthirsty Unicorn
The Resplendent Dawn
Jul 5 2006, 06:20 PM
Better yet, learn Koine and read some old manuscripts :P

The closest to the original language is 400 years older than the original, so that's BS too.

Anyone can baptise if they are a christian, not just a priest.
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NRE
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Map Tsar and Southern Gentleman

Wow are ya'll still going on about religion? You know it's funny how religion does exactly what people thinks it should do without people knowing it does it...that is to say it brings people together....it's a shame however that most of the time it's for the sake of arguing.

An I could go into this who crazy theory about how I think Jesus was just this average guy who through self-discipline discovered a way to evolve past what we perceive today as human existence and became something greater than our own understanding, but that may be just a bit too scifi :unsure:
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Nag Ehgoeg
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The Devil's Advocate

NeoRomanEmpire
Jul 5 2006, 08:56 PM
Wow are ya'll still going on about religion? You know it's funny how religion does exactly what people thinks it should do without people knowing it does it...that is to say it brings people together....it's a shame however that most of the time it's for the sake of arguing.

An I could go into this who crazy theory about how I think Jesus was just this average guy who through self-discipline discovered a way to evolve past what we perceive today as human existence and became something greater than our own understanding, but that may be just a bit too scifi :unsure:

Not at all. I think something that's fairly similar.

For example - Jesus raises a girl from the dead by placing his hands on her hands and his lips on her lips. Sounds like primitive CPR to me.

Now I don't believe Jesus somehow "ascended", but I do believe that the human body is capable of greater things than what the majority use it for.

Take for example Shaolin Monks. A lot of the things they use to show how disciplined their bodies are, are merely parlar tricks. Some of it, however, is genuinely - "wow... htf did they do that?!?"
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Filo
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Nag Ehgoeg
Jul 5 2006, 04:48 PM
Filo
Jul 5 2006, 02:15 PM
Nag Ehgoeg
Jul 4 2006, 05:40 PM
I don't expect you to.
If you're Christian, I expect you to love Jesus and follow his teachings.

Do this and don't try to convert me or infringe on my civil liberties, and I have no problem with your choice of faith. Bully for you. Get down with your Fine Self! I hope your religion brings you happiness.

If you love Jesus, but don't follow his teachings, you are not a Christian. You can say you are, but you're not. Bully for you. Get down with your Fine Self! I hope your faith brings you happiness. Don't try to convert me or infringe on my civil liberties.

It's not Work Nag.

He Fullfille the ancient testament but say also that he is more superior to them.
And Apostles repeting that is important only to belive in Jesus not, necessarely in his words or acts but only in him, dead and resurrected.
THEN churches, as associations of living men, creates rites and rituals to pray the lord and to fullfille the beliving in His dead and second comong; but neither are mandatory to consider a People Christians.
I work with priests and educators evrey days and i can tell you that baptization(from a roman Chatolic priest) is valid also if the Baptized person is not catechismized but has only express the will to belive in Jesus.

Catechismized?

Why is Baptism from a Roman Catholic Priest different from baptism from another religious leader?

Belief in Jesus is not "yeah, I think he existed". Belief in Jesus is putting you faith, love and trust in Him. When you love, trust and truely believe in someone then you will respect and follow their teachings.

I work with educators everyday, and I see my fair share of priests (I love our "Men in Black" as the Christ Church Chaplaincy call themselves). I tell you - you are wrong.

Jesus gave the Apostles the Lords Prayer. Saying associations of living men create rites and rituals is fundementally flawed.

Here's an idea for you: read the friggen bible.

When the Apostles repeat that you must believe in Jesus, they're not saying "believe of him" but "believe in him". Accept Jesus as your personal saviour. Accept Jesus as the teacher who will tell you the way to heaven. Accept him as your only way to salvation. Belief in Jesus is important. Belief that he lived is not salvation.

I'm not saying you must accept the Bible as literal truth. Nor am I saying that the Christian faith is not corrupted by inperfect human influence. I'm not saying Jesus isn't superior to the old testement - merely that he said it was to be followed and respected save where he had corrected it.

Lastly, I'm not saying it's work.

It shouldn't be work to love someone - whether they are god or not. If it's work, you're doing something wrong.

It should be a joy to follow Jesus's teachings.

I think you should re-evaluate your faith.

Belief in Christ is required to be Christian. Following his example is exactly what it means to be Christian.

Hmmm i have the suspect, very strong suspect, we are speaking about the same thing... only i say that to be a faithfull in him i need only to belive(with all my heart, sure) in thre Kerigma and experience the love of God(i experimet also in these days).

I call me Christian because i belive in Him(as you say), and knowing that he is dead for me i have desploiled myself from the old man and wear the new man.
i need of no Church and no Pope, and no priest.
If may faith in Jesus is strong i need no ritual to love him, and at extreme case no bibble to read about his life.
If i accept Kerigma(and here i may have lost something trying to translate) i accept that God is become a man and have loved the world so much to dead by cross(Dio ha tanto amato il mondo da dare suo figlio in sacrificio per noi)
I need no (I must use an Italian term) Catechismo to belive in him, to accet the gift he gave me.
I need no priest teaching, and at the end, as extreme limit, no baptization(Io battezzo con acqua ma verrà uno che battezzerà in spirito e fuoco).
My faith in him is not condizionated by gerarchies and surely not from men, neither if one of this man is the Pope.
Yes i'm catholic but only because i live in a actholic country but i like much more the protestant vision of the Chruch; since God has called all of us to be his priest, and to annunciate him to all the world.
When i speaking of Roman Baptization, is because i know only Roman priest (well at least with a Buddhist monk and an Islamic Muftì, and a Reformet priest).
Baptization need no teaching, only aknowledge that Jesus come for you, you need not to belive in Abuna, patriarch, Priest or Pope.
I, should be an Apostles as Simon and John to all Christian is gave the possibility to become an Apostle(As Saint Paul that when he was Saul persucuted the Crhistians) and to gain the Charismas of love of God.



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Wadj
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The Very Model of a Modern Major General
I'm so tired of God threads.

I swear, if there's another theological discussion, I'll build a doomsday device with Le Congo Leopold and fill this world with Cobalt-Thorium G up to its ears!
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Nag Ehgoeg
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The Devil's Advocate

Filo
Jul 6 2006, 02:13 PM
Nag Ehgoeg
Jul 5 2006, 04:48 PM
Filo
Jul 5 2006, 02:15 PM
Nag Ehgoeg
Jul 4 2006, 05:40 PM
I don't expect you to.
If you're Christian, I expect you to love Jesus and follow his teachings.

Do this and don't try to convert me or infringe on my civil liberties, and I have no problem with your choice of faith. Bully for you. Get down with your Fine Self! I hope your religion brings you happiness.

If you love Jesus, but don't follow his teachings, you are not a Christian. You can say you are, but you're not. Bully for you. Get down with your Fine Self! I hope your faith brings you happiness. Don't try to convert me or infringe on my civil liberties.

It's not Work Nag.

He Fullfille the ancient testament but say also that he is more superior to them.
And Apostles repeting that is important only to belive in Jesus not, necessarely in his words or acts but only in him, dead and resurrected.
THEN churches, as associations of living men, creates rites and rituals to pray the lord and to fullfille the beliving in His dead and second comong; but neither are mandatory to consider a People Christians.
I work with priests and educators evrey days and i can tell you that baptization(from a roman Chatolic priest) is valid also if the Baptized person is not catechismized but has only express the will to belive in Jesus.

Catechismized?

Why is Baptism from a Roman Catholic Priest different from baptism from another religious leader?

Belief in Jesus is not "yeah, I think he existed". Belief in Jesus is putting you faith, love and trust in Him. When you love, trust and truely believe in someone then you will respect and follow their teachings.

I work with educators everyday, and I see my fair share of priests (I love our "Men in Black" as the Christ Church Chaplaincy call themselves). I tell you - you are wrong.

Jesus gave the Apostles the Lords Prayer. Saying associations of living men create rites and rituals is fundementally flawed.

Here's an idea for you: read the friggen bible.

When the Apostles repeat that you must believe in Jesus, they're not saying "believe of him" but "believe in him". Accept Jesus as your personal saviour. Accept Jesus as the teacher who will tell you the way to heaven. Accept him as your only way to salvation. Belief in Jesus is important. Belief that he lived is not salvation.

I'm not saying you must accept the Bible as literal truth. Nor am I saying that the Christian faith is not corrupted by inperfect human influence. I'm not saying Jesus isn't superior to the old testement - merely that he said it was to be followed and respected save where he had corrected it.

Lastly, I'm not saying it's work.

It shouldn't be work to love someone - whether they are god or not. If it's work, you're doing something wrong.

It should be a joy to follow Jesus's teachings.

I think you should re-evaluate your faith.

Belief in Christ is required to be Christian. Following his example is exactly what it means to be Christian.

Hmmm i have the suspect, very strong suspect, we are speaking about the same thing... only i say that to be a faithfull in him i need only to belive(with all my heart, sure) in thre Kerigma and experience the love of God(i experimet also in these days).

I call me Christian because i belive in Him(as you say), and knowing that he is dead for me i have desploiled myself from the old man and wear the new man.
i need of no Church and no Pope, and no priest.
If may faith in Jesus is strong i need no ritual to love him, and at extreme case no bibble to read about his life.
If i accept Kerigma(and here i may have lost something trying to translate) i accept that God is become a man and have loved the world so much to dead by cross(Dio ha tanto amato il mondo da dare suo figlio in sacrificio per noi)
I need no (I must use an Italian term) Catechismo to belive in him, to accet the gift he gave me.
I need no priest teaching, and at the end, as extreme limit, no baptization(Io battezzo con acqua ma verrà uno che battezzerà in spirito e fuoco).
My faith in him is not condizionated by gerarchies and surely not from men, neither if one of this man is the Pope.
Yes i'm catholic but only because i live in a actholic country but i like much more the protestant vision of the Chruch; since God has called all of us to be his priest, and to annunciate him to all the world.
When i speaking of Roman Baptization, is because i know only Roman priest (well at least with a Buddhist monk and an Islamic Muftì, and a Reformet priest).
Baptization need no teaching, only aknowledge that Jesus come for you, you need not to belive in Abuna, patriarch, Priest or Pope.
I, should be an Apostles as Simon and John to all Christian is gave the possibility to become an Apostle(As Saint Paul that when he was Saul persucuted the Crhistians) and to gain the Charismas of love of God.

We're not talking about the same thing.

Not by a long shot.

I believe you must follow the teachings of Christ. If anything, the Bible isn't enough dogma. It is your duty as a Christian to study Christ and all his works. You must believe in his works and his teachings.

You simply believe he is god made man who died and rose again.

Unless you live your life (or at least try to live your life) in accordance with the rules and examples set down by Jesus, you are not a Christian. You are a mythological historian.
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Filo
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I not understand your point if you say so?

What i must follow Bibble to the letter?
The teaching of the popes? of Abunas? os Sheferds? or of whom?

I think only that i are not able to explain me.
I'm with you on Jesu imporntance, but when i experience the love of god i need only to belive in him to be safe(in accordance of the words of the prophets and Apostles); surely belive not mean only to belive that he is existed but has a more deep importance but salvation is not connected with no holy book but only with the experience that i have with Jesus.
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Nag Ehgoeg
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The Devil's Advocate

Filo
Jul 6 2006, 03:11 PM
I not understand your point if you say so?

What i must follow Bibble to the letter?
The teaching of the popes? of Abunas? os Sheferds? or of whom?

I think only that i are not able to explain me.
I'm with you on Jesu imporntance, but when i experience the love of god i need only to belive in him to be safe(in accordance of the words of the prophets and Apostles); surely belive not mean only to belive that he is existed but has a more deep importance but salvation is not connected with no holy book but only with the experience that i have with Jesus.

I say you misunderstand the Apostles.

Jesus claimed it was hard to get into heaven. That it required a life of humble poverty and love for your fellow man. That he has come to free you from sin so you have a chance of entering heaven. Belief does not equal salvation. Belief is the tool which allows you to save your soul, through Jesus's sacrifice by following his example.
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Quaon
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A Prince Amoung Men-Shoot First and Ask Questions Later
Nag Ehgoeg
Jul 6 2006, 03:18 PM
Filo
Jul 6 2006, 03:11 PM
I not understand your point if you say so?

What i must follow Bibble to the letter?
The teaching of the popes? of Abunas? os Sheferds? or of whom?

I think only that i are not able to explain me.
I'm with you on Jesu imporntance, but when i experience the love of god i need only to belive in him to be safe(in accordance of the words of the prophets and Apostles); surely belive not mean only to belive that he is existed but has a more deep importance but salvation is not connected with no holy book but only with the experience that i have with Jesus.

I say you misunderstand the Apostles.

Jesus claimed it was hard to get into heaven. That it required a life of humble poverty and love for your fellow man. That he has come to free you from sin so you have a chance of entering heaven. Belief does not equal salvation. Belief is the tool which allows you to save your soul, through Jesus's sacrifice by following his example.

Where does it actually say you NEED to do that to get into Heaven? Which Bible, because King James (I don't use it, I'm just saying) says accepting Christ into your soul is how you get saved, and many Bibles have different interpations on how to get to Heaven.
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Nag Ehgoeg
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The Devil's Advocate

Quaon
Jul 6 2006, 03:46 PM
Nag Ehgoeg
Jul 6 2006, 03:18 PM
Filo
Jul 6 2006, 03:11 PM
I not understand your point if you say so?

What i must follow Bibble to the letter?
The teaching of the popes? of Abunas? os Sheferds? or of whom?

I think only that i are not able to explain me.
I'm with you on Jesu imporntance, but when i experience the love of god i need only to belive in him to be safe(in accordance of the words of the prophets and Apostles); surely belive not mean only to belive that he is existed but has a more deep importance but salvation is not connected with no holy book but only with the experience that i have with Jesus.

I say you misunderstand the Apostles.

Jesus claimed it was hard to get into heaven. That it required a life of humble poverty and love for your fellow man. That he has come to free you from sin so you have a chance of entering heaven. Belief does not equal salvation. Belief is the tool which allows you to save your soul, through Jesus's sacrifice by following his example.

Where does it actually say you NEED to do that to get into Heaven? Which Bible, because King James (I don't use it, I'm just saying) says accepting Christ into your soul is how you get saved, and many Bibles have different interpations on how to get to Heaven.

Jesus in Mark 10:25 (King James Version)
 

25It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.


There you go.
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Quaon
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A Prince Amoung Men-Shoot First and Ask Questions Later
Nag Ehgoeg
Jul 6 2006, 03:51 PM
Quaon
Jul 6 2006, 03:46 PM
Nag Ehgoeg
Jul 6 2006, 03:18 PM
Filo
Jul 6 2006, 03:11 PM
I not understand your point if you say so?

What i must follow Bibble to the letter?
The teaching of the popes? of Abunas? os Sheferds? or of whom?

I think only that i are not able to explain me.
I'm with you on Jesu imporntance, but when i experience the love of god i need only to belive in him to be safe(in accordance of the words of the prophets and Apostles); surely belive not mean only to belive that he is existed but has a more deep importance but salvation is not connected with no holy book but only with the experience that i have with Jesus.

I say you misunderstand the Apostles.

Jesus claimed it was hard to get into heaven. That it required a life of humble poverty and love for your fellow man. That he has come to free you from sin so you have a chance of entering heaven. Belief does not equal salvation. Belief is the tool which allows you to save your soul, through Jesus's sacrifice by following his example.

Where does it actually say you NEED to do that to get into Heaven? Which Bible, because King James (I don't use it, I'm just saying) says accepting Christ into your soul is how you get saved, and many Bibles have different interpations on how to get to Heaven.

Jesus in Mark 10:25 (King James Version)
 

25It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.


There you go.

Depends on how you interpt that. I interpert that that line refers to those who are greedy and stingy with their money and refuse to share it with the poor. It may well have meant just that back in the times the Bible was written.
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Filo
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General
On one thing you are right: we are not sayng the samething.
But who is not understanding the Gospel message is you.

I belive in Jesus and in the freedom he gave me as son of God; i need no Church to follow him.
I belive in him and his power of Salvation.
I need only to know that God love me so to dead by Cross and that i must condivide this love with other my brothers, i need no rites(also i like them) and no priestes(also if i have nothing against them)

Do you want me call me no Catholic?
Do this if you please.

But i'm surely a Christian, not a good one, surely, but a Christian "sine dubio"

and here end my interest for this topic bye bye...
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Nag Ehgoeg
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The Devil's Advocate

Mark 10

1And he arose from thence, and cometh into the coasts of Judaea by the farther side of Jordan: and the people resort unto him again; and, as he was wont, he taught them again.

2And the Pharisees came to him, and asked him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife? tempting him.

3And he answered and said unto them, What did Moses command you?

4And they said, Moses suffered to write a bill of divorcement, and to put her away.

5And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept.

6But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.

7For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife;

8And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh.

9What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

10And in the house his disciples asked him again of the same matter.

11And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her.

12And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.

13And they brought young children to him, that he should touch them: and his disciples rebuked those that brought them.

14But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

15Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.

16And he took them up in his arms, put his hands upon them, and blessed them.

17And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?

18And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

19Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.

20And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth.

21Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.

22And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.

23And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!

24And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God!

25It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.


26And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved?

27And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.

28Then Peter began to say unto him, Lo, we have left all, and have followed thee.

29And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's,

30But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.

31But many that are first shall be last; and the last first.

32And they were in the way going up to Jerusalem; and Jesus went before them: and they were amazed; and as they followed, they were afraid. And he took again the twelve, and began to tell them what things should happen unto him,

33Saying, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be delivered unto the chief priests, and unto the scribes; and they shall condemn him to death, and shall deliver him to the Gentiles:

34And they shall mock him, and shall scourge him, and shall spit upon him, and shall kill him: and the third day he shall rise again.

35And James and John, the sons of Zebedee, come unto him, saying, Master, we would that thou shouldest do for us whatsoever we shall desire.

36And he said unto them, What would ye that I should do for you?

37They said unto him, Grant unto us that we may sit, one on thy right hand, and the other on thy left hand, in thy glory.

38But Jesus said unto them, Ye know not what ye ask: can ye drink of the cup that I drink of? and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?


39And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized:

40But to sit on my right hand and on my left hand is not mine to give; but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared.

41And when the ten heard it, they began to be much displeased with James and John.

42But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them.

43But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister:

44And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all.

45For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

46And they came to Jericho: and as he went out of Jericho with his disciples and a great number of people, blind Bartimaeus, the son of Timaeus, sat by the highway side begging.

47And when he heard that it was Jesus of Nazareth, he began to cry out, and say, Jesus, thou son of David, have mercy on me.

48And many charged him that he should hold his peace: but he cried the more a great deal, Thou son of David, have mercy on me.

49And Jesus stood still, and commanded him to be called. And they call the blind man, saying unto him, Be of good comfort, rise; he calleth thee.

50And he, casting away his garment, rose, and came to Jesus.

51And Jesus answered and said unto him, What wilt thou that I should do unto thee? The blind man said unto him, Lord, that I might receive my sight.

52And Jesus said unto him, Go thy way; thy faith hath made thee whole. And immediately he received his sight, and followed Jesus in the way.
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Quaon
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A Prince Amoung Men-Shoot First and Ask Questions Later
Nag Ehgoeg
Jul 6 2006, 04:02 PM
Mark 10

1And he arose from thence, and cometh into the coasts of Judaea by the farther side of Jordan: and the people resort unto him again; and, as he was wont, he taught them again.

2And the Pharisees came to him, and asked him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife? tempting him.

3And he answered and said unto them, What did Moses command you?

4And they said, Moses suffered to write a bill of divorcement, and to put her away.

5And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept.

6But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.

7For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife;

8And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh.

9What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

10And in the house his disciples asked him again of the same matter.

11And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her.

12And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.

13And they brought young children to him, that he should touch them: and his disciples rebuked those that brought them.

14But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

15Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.

16And he took them up in his arms, put his hands upon them, and blessed them.

17And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?

18And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

19Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.

20And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth.

21Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.

22And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.

23And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!

24And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God!

25It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.


26And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved?

27And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.

28Then Peter began to say unto him, Lo, we have left all, and have followed thee.

29And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's,

30But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.

31But many that are first shall be last; and the last first.

32And they were in the way going up to Jerusalem; and Jesus went before them: and they were amazed; and as they followed, they were afraid. And he took again the twelve, and began to tell them what things should happen unto him,

33Saying, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be delivered unto the chief priests, and unto the scribes; and they shall condemn him to death, and shall deliver him to the Gentiles:

34And they shall mock him, and shall scourge him, and shall spit upon him, and shall kill him: and the third day he shall rise again.

35And James and John, the sons of Zebedee, come unto him, saying, Master, we would that thou shouldest do for us whatsoever we shall desire.

36And he said unto them, What would ye that I should do for you?

37They said unto him, Grant unto us that we may sit, one on thy right hand, and the other on thy left hand, in thy glory.

38But Jesus said unto them, Ye know not what ye ask: can ye drink of the cup that I drink of? and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?


39And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized:

40But to sit on my right hand and on my left hand is not mine to give; but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared.

41And when the ten heard it, they began to be much displeased with James and John.

42But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them.

43But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister:

44And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all.

45For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

46And they came to Jericho: and as he went out of Jericho with his disciples and a great number of people, blind Bartimaeus, the son of Timaeus, sat by the highway side begging.

47And when he heard that it was Jesus of Nazareth, he began to cry out, and say, Jesus, thou son of David, have mercy on me.

48And many charged him that he should hold his peace: but he cried the more a great deal, Thou son of David, have mercy on me.

49And Jesus stood still, and commanded him to be called. And they call the blind man, saying unto him, Be of good comfort, rise; he calleth thee.

50And he, casting away his garment, rose, and came to Jesus.

51And Jesus answered and said unto him, What wilt thou that I should do unto thee? The blind man said unto him, Lord, that I might receive my sight.

52And Jesus said unto him, Go thy way; thy faith hath made thee whole. And immediately he received his sight, and followed Jesus in the way.

You are missing a key point. This is pre crucifiction, before Jesus washed away sin.
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Nag Ehgoeg
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The Devil's Advocate

Jesus in John 6
 
38For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.


Also precrucifixion.
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Quaon
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A Prince Amoung Men-Shoot First and Ask Questions Later
Nag Ehgoeg
Jul 6 2006, 04:18 PM
Jesus in John 6
 
38For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.


Also precrucifixion.

Which directly contradicts Mark. Most of the apostles had a very difficult time of agreeing on anything. Mark (or is it Luke, sorry, I don't have a Bible handy) many times insults all other apostles, making them seem ignorant of the Lord, so I would trust the other Apostles more, since many are more likely to be right than the one.

I don't know what's true and not, that's what drives me insane. I just refuse to believe that there is nothing afterwardss.
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Nag Ehgoeg
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The Devil's Advocate

Then why are two athiests argueing over the Christian faith?

And why aren't you paying attension.

The key, fundemental part, of my arguement is where an Apostle says "believe on" they mean "believe totally and completely in Jesus and follow his teachings" not "believe he lived". There's no contradiction there.

John 11:26
 
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die.


Another from Mark (12)
 
30And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
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