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The God Thread, Version 2.0
Topic Started: Jun 26 2006, 06:52 PM (1,082 Views)
East Anarx
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Anarchitect

Nag Ehgoeg
Jun 29 2006, 04:50 PM

I honestly believe that England will win the world cup.

And I don't believe in a Christian Satan. But I don't believe in the Christian god either. If I'm wrong, I'd support Satan over god.

And I wouldn't enjoy hell. It's impossible to enjoy hell. It's hell.

But do you really think that torture until doomsday where I'm given the choice to repent or be destroyed utterly is the best way for god to win my love?

The Christian god is a bully and a thug. The Christian Satan is an evil bastard as well - but at least Satan is honest about it. Satan is weaker than god, and thus can't be as oppressive a master and will be easier to overthrow.

I'd do everything in my power to bring down the biggest threat (god - you know, the guy who's condemned me to being tortured for standing against his blackmail) then try to bring down the weaker of two evils (Satan).

If the Christian god exists, I'm screwed. I don't expect to win. But it won't stop me fighting for what is right.

An all powerful, all knowing god would know everything that's going to happen in the world. He'll know exactly how to create it to get a certain result. Sure we have free will. Sure we choose to act a certain way, but he created us and know what we'll choose. We're responsible for our own actions, but god knows what actions we will take and god makes the rules as to what actions are against his rules and what actions wil curry favour with him. God could have made brussel sprouts taste like carrots - both are good for you. He didn't. God made the world knowing we will fail. He knew that in providing temptation we would fall for it. And he chose to punish us. God is evil.

God could have made the world any way he chose. He chose to make man weak. To make us sin and hurt each other. Anything less than this would be admitting that god isn't all powerful or all knowing.

God is evil.

Now god is also smart, so he makes someone worse than him. A powerful enemy much weaker than himself. Someone to inherit the evils of the world that god created.

The Christian Satan is a "human shield" he's a "punching bag" he's a "puppet". Evil? Sure, but not a patch on god.

I don't believe in any "higher being". I think the whole idea is crap and borne out of low self esteem and a hatred of human nature. If a higher being does exist, then I don't believe that it can be all powerful and all knowing. If such a flawed being exists, then maybe there is a good reason to love and worship it. If it can show me it's faults and "prove" that it's a decent entity, I'd be happy to worship it. If it shows off it's powers and demands I bow down, then I'll fight it with everything I've got.

If a higher force exists (karma, an "inpersonal" god) then there's no point in worshiping it - it's just like science and the theory of gravity, ok so it's there, big deal, no need to worship it.

TRANSLATION:

Because I cannot see God's plan, I assume he is as evil and selfish as humans are. I assume that because I am put on this earth and that I suffer, it is God's fault because he could stop it and not my fault because I can't change it. I am a rebel, not against the corrupt ways of man, but against the righteous ways of God. I am not in charge of my own destiny even though I am allowed to make choices simply because God, who created me, will not let me remain alive forever unless I give him the credit he deserves and worships him. Even though he did create me, I choose not to admit it or when I do, I blame all the bad in my life on him and credit all the good in my life to myself. I see freedom from God where there is slavery to sin. I see slavery to God where there is perfect harmonious freedom in Him. I choose slavery and torture over freedom and paradise because I am deceived into believing that, as Orwell said, "Freedom is Slavery" I misinterpret Freedom to mean that I am allowed to do bad regardless of the consequences.
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NRE
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Map Tsar and Southern Gentleman

Sometimes I think our inquisitiveness is our greatest wekaness as a species.

.....random thought :unsure:
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Nag Ehgoeg
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The Devil's Advocate

Filo, I've read the bible. And I consider myself a dab hand at demonology. Try studing the teachings of the Christian churches and tell me what you've learned. Pay particular attension to Revelation 16

Quote:
 
Because I cannot see God's plan, I assume he is as evil and selfish as humans are.


And why shouldn't I? Are we not created in his image?

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I assume that because I am put on this earth and that I suffer, it is God's fault because he could stop it and not my fault because I can't change it.


Far from it, there's plenty I can do to absolve my own suffering. There's not much I can do for the thousands dying in the third world and millions killed over religious wars waged in the name of an uncaring god.

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I am a rebel,


In a rather conformist way, yes I am a rebel - it's taken you that long to notice?

Quote:
 
not against the corrupt ways of man, but against the righteous ways of God.


Actually, I don't believe in god, so I do rebel against the corrupt ways of man. I hate the way we fight and kill each other. I hate the way we grind each other into the dust just to get ahead. I hate the way people use religion as an excuse for percution. I hate "god" for the same reasons I hate Nazism. It's a man made method of oppression to justfy killing.

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I am not in charge of my own destiny even though I am allowed to make choices simply because God, who created me, will not let me remain alive forever unless I give him the credit he deserves and worships him.


Not at all, I believe in no higher power. I believe I am in control. If god does exist, then he was created the world in such a way as the choices I make will fit with his plan. He is using me, and I will not let myself be used.

If I had a child, and let it grow to the age of ten then shot it, would that be right?

Why should I worship someone for creating me? If he wanted his creations to worship him, then he would have made us want to worship him. If he made us to be free and make our own choices, then my rejection of god glorifies him.

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Even though he did create me, I choose not to admit it or when I do, I blame all the bad in my life on him and credit all the good in my life to myself.


I choose not to admit it. When hypothesising I blame everything on god, the joy and the pain. It's just a shame that most of what gives me joy is "sinful" and against gods supposed will.

Quote:
 
I see freedom from God where there is slavery to sin.


I can quit anytime. I gave up smoking when I felt it wasn't helping me. I eat for pleasure, but only for as long as it is pleasurable. I act out of greed only insofar as I can "come out on top" and enjoy the spoils rather than find my life ruled by making more money.

Quote:
 
I see slavery to God where there is perfect harmonious freedom in Him.


Ingorance is bliss.

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I choose slavery and torture over freedom and paradise because I am deceived into believing that, as Orwell said, "Freedom is Slavery" I misinterpret Freedom to mean that I am allowed to do bad regardless of the consequences.


What is bad?

Is dishouring your father and mother bad? What if they abuse you?
Is coverting your neighbours ass bad? What if you are starving to death and need bread to feed your starving family?
Is murder bad? Not when killing in the name of god apparently.

I would choose honest slavery and torture over living in a slave state.

I could offer you mind altering drugs and a frontal labotomy. I could keep you in a state of drug induced bliss for the rest of your life. But you would no longer be yourself. You would be mindlessly happy.

Or I could lock you in a dungeon. I could do everything in my power to make you "repent" and chose the drugs.

I know I'd take the dungeon.

Quote:
 
Nag, think for a second. You don't believe any Holy Book. Now, for a second, let's say there is a God, and you are dead. There are so many different interpertations of God throughout one religion: it is extremly unlikely anyone has it completly right. Maybe the interpertation that all go to Heaven is correct, perhaps not.


It is almost impossible that anyone has it completely right. But all religions believe that they are right. I believe the CoE went on record saying Princess Diana would not go to heaven because she wasn't born again.

I do not believe in a higher power. All "my beef" with god stems from the human interpretation. Every major denomination of Christianity and Islam believe they are right and only they will go to heaven.

Quote:
 
Think of God as a parent figure. He (I'm just using that pronoun for simplicity) wants to help you as best he can, but he knows that you will grow to hate him if he involves himself in every little thing in your life. He can't always be there when we screw up.


Of course not. But why are we as we are?

Going back to Christianity, why create the tree of knowlege? Why not just not create that temptation? I wouldn't give my child a loaded gun and say "don't touch".

God doesn't need to be there every time we screw up. But he could have created us differently. He could have made poisons like alcohol abhorant to us. He could have made a race of humans who didn't turn into hormonal nightmares after 13 years. What purpose does human suffering serve in the plans of an all power being?

Quote:
 
Trust me, I hate the people who potray God the way you assume all theists do. Also, by the way, nearly all Christian denominations in the world that believe in Hell don't believe you can be redeemed after you die.


Actually nearly all Christian demoninations believe in the resurection of the body and creation of the New Earth. The distinction must be made between "Hell-Purgatory" and "Hell-Gehenna". That is to say, when you die you go to Hell until judgement day. At which point (after Satans thousand year reign of Earth) souls are given final absolution to accept god of be thrown into the Lake of Fire with the deceiver. Those who repent are reborn in the New Earth and New Heaven which will be free of sin and inperfection. Those who refuse are destroyed utterly, body and soul. See Rev 13:20 if you don't believe in salavtion after death.

I suggest you all take the equivlent of an Alpha Course and actually read the Bible before jumping on the wiki and trying to "out thiest" me.

Now by all means, if you don't want to define god, or if you think people of all faiths will get their final reward, then good for you. You're the type of thiest I like. I have nothing bad to say about your beliefs.

But you are not Christian and you are not a Muslim. And I suggest you don't try and defend those faiths.

That their god is the only god, and that their way is the only path to salvation is a fundamental tenant of their religion.

It is this that has led to untold human suffering.

I believe their gods to be false, and I hate those gods.

God, as according to the bible, as according to the Catholic church, as according to the Koran is the very definition of Evil he is a corrupt dicator who masks ill intent with acts of love.

If you believe in a loving god, then I have no problem with your god. If you believe that the Christian religion is mankinds inperfect interpretation of a perfect god, then I cannot fault you, and again I accept your god and hop you are correct. But you are not a christian.

If you follow Islam, then I hate your god and I hate your prophet. You cannot hide behind the excuse that your holy book is a work of man to explain god's glory, your god is evil.

Jewish? Buddihist? Well once more, I think you're wrong, but I don't hate your beliefs as such.

And our inquistiveness is our greatest strength.

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It's the question that drives us
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Kiensland
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Better to reign in hell than serve in heaven.
-- John Milton, Paradise Lost.

'S what this thread makes me think.
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NRE
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Map Tsar and Southern Gentleman

Nag Ehgoeg
Jun 30 2006, 02:36 AM
And our inquistiveness is our greatest strength.

Quote:
 
It's the question that drives us

Mayhaps...I suppose you can equally weight the trouble it's caused to the greatness we've been able to achieve. I guess sometimes I just believe ignorance is perhaps bliss.
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Rhadamanthus
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Legitimist

Somehow I had Esternarx pegged as an atheist, so I guess I was wrong, lol.

As for myself, theist-leaning agnostic. Ain't gonna' jump into the debate.
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New Harumf
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Bloodthirsty Unicorn
Nag, you seem willing to blame the evil in the world on a God - or would if you discover one exists. But there is good in the world as well. Would you be willing to give credit for that good to a God, if you discovered one exists?

Everyone, see if you can find the Lecture given by J. Krishnamurti in 1929 when he disolved the Order of the Star of the East, an order started to proclaim his own coming. He was made head of the order by his followers, and his first act was to dissolve it.

Just to quote a bit:

"I maintain that Truth is a pathless land, and you cannot approach it by any path whatsoever, by any religion, by any sect."

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Catholic Europe
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New Harumf
Jun 30 2006, 10:01 AM
Would you be willing to give credit for that good to a God, if you discovered one exists?

Of course he wouldn't. He would credit that to mankind. :rolleyes:
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East Anarx
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The Resplendent Dawn
Jun 30 2006, 09:52 AM
Somehow I had Esternarx pegged as an atheist, so I guess I was wrong, lol.

As for myself, theist-leaning agnostic.  Ain't gonna' jump into the debate.

I believe governments, if they are to be just, should act completely separate of church, and since we've mainly talked about politics on this forum, I could see how you could get that impression.

New Harumf
 
Would you be willing to give credit for that good to a God, if you discovered one exists?

Nag Ehgoeg
 
When hypothesising I blame everything on god, the joy and the pain.


Does that answer your question?

Nag Ehgoeg
 
If you believe in a loving god, then I have no problem with your god. If you believe that the Christian religion is mankinds inperfect interpretation of a perfect god, then I cannot fault you, and again I accept your god and hop you are correct. But you are not a christian.


That's like saying a 4 legged dog is something other than a dog just because all you've known all your life has been 3 legged dogs.
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Nag Ehgoeg
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The Devil's Advocate

Esternarx
Jun 30 2006, 01:48 PM
New Harumf
 
Would you be willing to give credit for that good to a God, if you discovered one exists?

Nag Ehgoeg
 
When hypothesising I blame everything on god, the joy and the pain.


Does that answer your question?

Nag Ehgoeg
 
If you believe in a loving god, then I have no problem with your god. If you believe that the Christian religion is mankinds inperfect interpretation of a perfect god, then I cannot fault you, and again I accept your god and hop you are correct. But you are not a christian.


That's like saying a 4 legged dog is something other than a dog just because all you've known all your life has been 3 legged dogs.

Not so.

To be a Christian, you must follow the teachings of Christ. That means following what is written in the Bible. You can't simply pick and choose what you like and what you wish to ignore. If that's the case, I'm a Christian because I believe Jesus was right when he said to love thy neighbour. I don't believe in any other Christian teaching.

By all means, call yourself a Christian. Give your denomination a name if you must. But be honest with yourself, you're not following the true religion. You're doing what every major denomination has done - picked and chose what suited you and what didn't. In the past people reinvented religion for control, now you're doing it for survival.

Why?

NeoRomanEmpire
Jun 30 2006, 09:50 AM
Nag Ehgoeg
Jun 30 2006, 02:36 AM
And our inquistiveness is our greatest strength.

Quote:
 
It's the question that drives us

Mayhaps...I suppose you can equally weight the trouble it's caused to the greatness we've been able to achieve. I guess sometimes I just believe ignorance is perhaps bliss.

Now that is thought provoking.
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Passager
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In G0phers we trust
 *  *  *  *  *
Uh, Christ didn't write the bible. The Bible has his teachings in it, but the whole thing is not only his teachings. The bible was put together by a comitee of some sort which picked and chose what parts to put in or not. Also the catholic church most likely wrote what it did so that it could control the people easier. To be a minimum requirement Christian, you only have to believe in christ and that he died for your sins and is he son of god. If you believe that, you are christian.
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Filo
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General
I Disagree with you Passenger

The things you must know to be Chiristian is that God love you and gave is only son for you, that Jesus died but resurrect after three days and will return at the end of Days; and if you belive this you will be save

This is the Kerigma, or the minimal teaching of Christian Churces.
Other things are coming from traditions, exactly as for the Bibble.

Kerigma is so ancient that is reported by Sant Paul in his letters, Around 50 A.D and the Gospels are nothing more that the story of this teach.

You can not belive in sins and Devil, in Hell of Paradise but to be consider Christian you Must belive in Jesus Christ dead and resurrected.
Jesus, for Christians, is not only a great figure or a prophet(as Muhammador Buddha) but is the son of God.
He is not important for his teaching(also if them are important too) but for He is not for what has done
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Nag Ehgoeg
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The Devil's Advocate

Now you say that, and yet I must remind you that until the Council of Nicea the Arius school of thought on Jesus was that he was not devine. Other leading theologians pre-325 debated his ascenscion to heaven and the fact that he rose from the dead.

Christ did not write the Bible. This is true.

But the Bible is the Holy Book for Christianity.

Christ did not call himself, or his followers Christians - they did.

Christianity means following the teachings of Christ. These teachings are recorded by the followers of Jesus.

You can not pick and chose what to follow about what Jesus said. Jesus entrusted the continuing of his teachings to St Peter (the rock).

Christianity is the religion of the followers, not the deity. You cannot ingore the writings of the Bible or the teachings of St Peter and his successors and call yourself Christian. It doesn't work like that.

Even the two "Christians" who've posted since me can't agree on what teachings are "required" by their faith. I think that says something.

You cannot simply twist religion to suit your own needs - or rather you can, and that's my main problem with it.

Unless you follow all the teachings of the Bible and Palpacy, you are not truely Christian. Now you don't have to be Catholic - as Peter's link to the later Palpacy has never been proven and is often thought of as just a method of control invented by the Church - but I strongly recommend it.
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Quaon
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A Prince Amoung Men-Shoot First and Ask Questions Later
Nag Ehgoeg
Jul 1 2006, 06:00 AM
Now you say that, and yet I must remind you that until the Council of Nicea the Arius school of thought on Jesus was that he was not devine. Other leading theologians pre-325 debated his ascenscion to heaven and the fact that he rose from the dead.


Not true. It had always been church doctrine that Christ was devine, and the Council was merely held to officialize this fact in response to groups of fringe Christians claiming Christ wasn't devine.
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Nag Ehgoeg
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The Devil's Advocate

Quaon
Jul 1 2006, 06:03 AM
Nag Ehgoeg
Jul 1 2006, 06:00 AM
Now you say that, and yet I must remind you that until the Council of Nicea the Arius school of thought on Jesus was that he was not devine. Other leading theologians pre-325 debated his ascenscion to heaven and the fact that he rose from the dead.


Not true. It had always been church doctrine that Christ was devine, and the Council was merely held to officialize this fact in response to groups of fringe Christians claiming Christ wasn't devine.

Aruis was not a fringe group.

And this is why I hate Dan Brown.

Dan Brown goes and claims everyone thought Jesus was a man not god, then the church responds by spreading "the truth" that it was only fringe groups.

Now here's an idea, why don't you actually research the Arian Controversy?

Arius of Alexandria's teachings extend even to the modern day church - there are a pair of churches in Lewisham which are opposite each other and yet they each view the others as heritics because on believes that Jesus is the trinity whereas the other believes the trinity consists of the father, son and holy ghost as three interlinked beings.

The idea of God the Father being higher than Jesus is still a common controversy, born of the teachings of one of the greastest minds of the third century.

The common view held Jesus as devine. The idea that he was not was ripped to shreds - literally, they tore up his work - at the counsil, but it was not until after the counsil that the idea that Jesus was not devine became abhorant.
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Catholic Europe
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Arians were a fringe group. To say otherwise is to spread false rumours that people like you spread only for the purpose of dis-crediting the Church.
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Nag Ehgoeg
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The Devil's Advocate

And yet their ideas survive to this day, not simply due to the (piss poor) works of Dan Brown, but in the ideas of various churches and demoniations which put Jesus as the trinitiy, lower than the father or simply part of the trinitiy.

A minority? Yes, certainly.

But one significant enough to call a meeting of all the finest religious minds of the time to discredit him.

A "fringe group" doesn't need that kind of discrediting. Can you imagine a counsil being called consisting of all the current Christian denominations coming together to discredit one lunatic and his followers? I don't think so.
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Catholic Europe
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No, because they've split too much.
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Nag Ehgoeg
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The Devil's Advocate

And if the Pope said Jesus wasn't devine, what do you think would happen then?
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East Anarx
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Nag Ehgoeg
Jun 30 2006, 05:28 PM
To be a Christian, you must follow the teachings of Christ. That means following what is written in the Bible. You can't simply pick and choose what you like and what you wish to ignore. If that's the case, I'm a Christian because I believe Jesus was right when he said to love thy neighbour. I don't believe in any other Christian teaching.

By all means, call yourself a Christian. Give your denomination a name if you must. But be honest with yourself, you're not following the true religion. You're doing what every major denomination has done - picked and chose what suited you and what didn't. In the past people reinvented religion for control, now you're doing it for survival.

You don't have to follow everything in the bible to go to heaven, Jesus himself said that. The bible is just a guidebook for how to have a good life on earth, people interpret it many different ways. Christianity is filled with all sorts of little sects, thousands really, but I believe that whether you're a catholic, a presbytarian, a baptist, a church of christ-er, a methodist, an episcopalian, a mormon, or whatever other fool thing you want to call yourself, whether you follow the Bible to the letter, or whether you think the bible is mostly crap that churches put in there for control, as long as you believe that Jesus Christ died for your sins and you accept him into your heart, you will go to heaven. Period. Everything else is just different ways of living on earth, which is, in the long run, not a big deal at all. Believing this may not make me a Christian by catholic standards, or baptist standards, or satanist standards, but it makes me a Christian by Christ's standards.
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Nag Ehgoeg
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The Devil's Advocate

Esternarx
Jul 1 2006, 10:15 AM
Nag Ehgoeg
Jun 30 2006, 05:28 PM
To be a Christian, you must follow the teachings of Christ. That means following what is written in the Bible. You can't simply pick and choose what you like and what you wish to ignore. If that's the case, I'm a Christian because I believe Jesus was right when he said to love thy neighbour. I don't believe in any other Christian teaching.

By all means, call yourself a Christian. Give your denomination a name if you must. But be honest with yourself, you're not following the true religion. You're doing what every major denomination has done - picked and chose what suited you and what didn't. In the past people reinvented religion for control, now you're doing it for survival.

You don't have to follow everything in the bible to go to heaven, Jesus himself said that. The bible is just a guidebook for how to have a good life on earth, people interpret it many different ways. Christianity is filled with all sorts of little sects, thousands really, but I believe that whether you're a catholic, a presbytarian, a baptist, a church of christ-er, a methodist, an episcopalian, a mormon, or whatever other fool thing you want to call yourself, whether you follow the Bible to the letter, or whether you think the bible is mostly crap that churches put in there for control, as long as you believe that Jesus Christ died for your sins and you accept him into your heart, you will go to heaven. Period. Everything else is just different ways of living on earth, which is, in the long run, not a big deal at all. Believing this may not make me a Christian by catholic standards, or baptist standards, or satanist standards, but it makes me a Christian by Christ's standards.

Here's what Jesus says in Matthew 5:
Jesus in Teh Bible
 
17`Do not think that I have come to take away the law and the writings of the prophets. No, I have not come to take them away. But I have come to do what they say must be done.

18I tell you the truth. Until the sky and the earth are taken away, not one small part of the law will be taken away, until everything has been done.

19So anyone who does not obey one of the smallest laws, and teaches other people not to obey it, will have the smallest part in the kingdom of heaven. But any one who obeys and teaches the law, will have a big part in the kingdom of heaven.

20I tell you, you must do much better than the scribes and Pharisees. If you do not, then you will never go into the kingdom of heaven.'

21`You have heard this said to men long ago, "Do not kill. Anyone who kills will be judged in court."

22`But I tell you this. Anyone who is angry with his brother without having a good reason, will be judged in court. Anyone who says wrong things to his brother will be judged for it in the big court. Anyone who says "You fool!" will be judged to go into hell fire.

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34`But I tell you, do not make a promise in God's name. Do not use the name of heaven, because that is where God rules

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48You must be good in every way, as your Father in heaven is good in every way.'

Jesus in Luke 14:27
 
27And anyone who does not carry his cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.


The road to heaven is narrow.
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East Anarx
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Anarchitect

Fine, if it turns out I'm wrong, then I'll see you in Hell, Nag, and I'll fight right along side you as we fight for "freedom from the oppression of God".
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Nag Ehgoeg
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The Devil's Advocate

I'm really glad you posted that as I was just coming in to say the same thing: no-one is going to change their mind over this, so we'll find out when we die.

Personally, I think it'd be damn unfair if your view of god isn't right - but then the world is unfair.

Perhaps because I have trouble seeing beyond the "real world" and what I've actually experienced, I just can't bring myself to believe in the fair and loving god you guys seem to favour.

But hey, I think the entire idea of "god" is crap so... meh. (I was going to go and compare the Bible to Mein Kampf...)

So yeah, we'll find out when we die, so lets just live and let live eh?
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East Anarx
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Anarchitect

Nag Ehgoeg
Jul 1 2006, 11:54 AM
So yeah, we'll find out when we die, so lets just live and let live eh?

Sounds good to me. :D
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Catholic Europe
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Nag Ehgoeg
Jul 1 2006, 10:12 AM
And if the Pope said Jesus wasn't devine, what do you think would happen then?

Who knows? He would be denounced as heretical because he would be going against the centuries-old teachings of the Church, which has been ratified by numerous councils and previous Popes, saints and other Holy people.
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