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| The Second War of Succession | |
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| Topic Started: Sep 28 2005, 10:32 PM (404 Views) | |
| Catholic Europe | Oct 3 2005, 09:08 AM Post #26 |
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Spammer
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Maybe not. It could all be a big ploy! |
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| The Socialist Sheikdom of Egyria | Oct 3 2005, 10:02 AM Post #27 |
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The Holy Prussian Empire
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OOC: See, this is where my problem with super-states is. Paradise, from what I've heard, alone could almost certainly take over the Middle East and probably the rest of the globe, and only a concentrated massed counteroffensive could hope to push them back. This isn't an attack on people's big nations per se - its just a question of viability. Paradise can't reasonably get involved in any conflict without dramatically upsetting the balance of power - which isn't really fair to any of us, INCLUDING Paradise. I suppose we're lucky that he has better things to do than wipe us all out... I understand that there needs to be superpowers and minor powers in a global RPing forum, but the differentiation between the two levels is so enormous that it seems unfair to smaller nations - not really Egyria anymore, although arguably she's a minor, not a superpower - to even bother. If you're amazingly huge and powerful - like Paradise - then not only can you have TENS OF MILLIONS of men, you can also EQUIP them all without a second thought. If you're smaller, either you have a big crap military, a small good military, or some unsatisfactory mixture of the two - after all, Patrua could sneeze and there wouldn't be an Egyria anymore. It gets worse as we get bigger. Someday, Egyria will have a Paradise-sized army - but by that time, Paradise will herself be so amazingly huge that it won't matter. More importantly, people who join later on will find they will simply NEVER be able to compete - which isn't fair to them (I know I was daunted when I first came here), and isn't really realistic either, because the Balance of Power is not static. Timescales throw in a whole new element. If I may use you as an example CE, you were pretty well devastated by the First War of Succession. But since a day is an entire year for you - for my nations, I have no fixed timescale; the WOS vaguely lasted about a year or two, while for you it was almost a century - one month later you're back where you started. Now, there's nothing really wrong with that on its own - but to Egyria, and likely Wadj, Patrua,etc., its only been a couple years or even months since you were invaded and nuked, which makes "our" perspectives vastly different from "yours." This isn't an attack on anyone. I am proposing that we have a discussion - a dedicated discussion - on this at some point. |
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| Catholic Europe | Oct 3 2005, 10:23 AM Post #28 |
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Spammer
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I get what you're saying and I have made some effort to rectify the timescale situation (I know it's only a small step but it's a step nonetheless). As for the military thing, I think you may be exaggerating the potential of Paradise. I, in order to defeat Patrua, teamed up both Scythirus and Paradise, I didn't just have it as Paradise by himself. But, then again, this is very much like the real world, some nations just never will be able to square off to other nations. That is they way the cookie crumbles and I prefer it that way - not only because I am a 'super power', of some sorts, but because that is how the real world is and therefore it is how this should be. |
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| Sistan | Oct 3 2005, 11:10 AM Post #29 |
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2nd Lieutenant
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OOC: Actually, that is quite far from correct. Paradise may have a massive military budget and a huge population, but that's about it. Paradise's education and healthcare budget, as well as general civil rights, are simply nonexistant. As shown by the recent book publishing rankings, where Paradise came in 77th in the region and 98,327th in the world, I find it doubtful that Paradise's soldiers can read well enough to tell the difference between "Warning: Mine Field" and "This way to mess hall". Paradise also wouldn't be creating very high tech weapons or terribly sophisticated battleplans. The inexistance of civil rights in Paradise would also weaken the morale and effectiveness of it's forces. After all, are you more willing to risk your life for someone that treats you well, or someone who would sooner have you in the gulags than help you? For a good example of why a massive military budget isn't a monolithic guarentee of victory, take a look at what Pipian says would happen if Paradise came to blows with my primary nation, which has a billion less people and only a 20% military budget. If I attack. If Paradise attacks. As you can see, either way it goes down, Paradise ends up getting a sound beating, dispite having more than one billion more citizens. |
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| Nag Ehgoeg | Oct 3 2005, 11:13 AM Post #30 |
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The Devil's Advocate
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The War Calc doesn't take military budget into account. |
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| Catholic Europe | Oct 3 2005, 11:16 AM Post #31 |
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Spammer
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You make a very good point Sistan. Egyria, I think you are placing far too much emphasis on the military and not on other things. You are good at the military side of things but anything else you fall down on. Hurts (and might sound similar) but that's the truth and something that I noticed about you. Military is the be all and end all with you (Prussia is a most wicked example of that). However, it does not mean a guaranteed loss or win in a war because, as Sistan points out, other factors need to be taken into account. Sistan, I disagree that low civil rights would mean that there is more chance for you to lose a war. Soldiers, in totalitarian countries, are extremely devoted to the leader and will die for him/her. Therefore, I think it is more likely to aid you rather than be a problem and cause you to lose. |
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| Sistan | Oct 3 2005, 11:46 AM Post #32 |
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2nd Lieutenant
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The soldiers are generally not loyal. The commanders are, and they command the soldiers through fear. For a recent example, look at the Iraqi army when Bush invaded. They surrendered in such large numbers without shots being fired that they most likely slowed the advance more than they would had they fought. As for military budget not being calculated, it's more or less irrelevent. As I said before, money can't solve everything. Bryn Shander spends around 21 trillion on defense. Paradise spends 56 trillion. On the other hand, Bryn Shander spends 15 trillion on education, while Paradise spends nothing. Think about that and then tell me who will be producing the better soldiers and equipment. |
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| Paradise | Oct 3 2005, 11:59 AM Post #33 |
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Resident bureaucrat
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You know how corporatist regimes work, don't you? Fascist Germany was one. My people is stupid, that's a fact. My soldiers are stupid too. You can read and be stupid, but if you can't read you're probably not very smart indeed (I think that's what you meant, correct me if I'm wrong)... Now I'll bring some contestable but realistic facts: 1. Paradise is not a third world country, its economy has been at "Frightening" since the beginning. I know no industrialized countries with high % of illiteracy; 2. It is a sine qua non condition for soldiers of industrialized countries to be able to read. No modern army would recruit illiterate people for their defence; 3. My people is stupid, UN surveys have proven it many times. The manipulating minority in power (high council, public departments, officers), however, is not. You can't lead 6 billions people with a stupid elite. |
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| Paradise | Oct 3 2005, 12:04 PM Post #34 |
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Resident bureaucrat
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What about indoctrinated soldiers?
Are you saying a physician (for example) would be a better soldier than a... soldier who's training everyday? |
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| Sistan | Oct 3 2005, 12:09 PM Post #35 |
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2nd Lieutenant
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No, I'm saying that an army without physicians not be an army for long. If you can't treat even simple flesh wounds, your forces will be decimated in even a minor battle. |
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| Paradise | Oct 3 2005, 12:19 PM Post #36 |
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Resident bureaucrat
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Irrelevant. All modern armies have doctors / nurses which are parts of the logistic process. The point is: do you have to be smart to be a good soldier? |
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| Sistan | Oct 3 2005, 12:22 PM Post #37 |
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2nd Lieutenant
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Facist Germany had very stupid leaders. Hitler may have been a very good speaker, but he was probably the single greatest factor in the fall of the Third Reich. Germany's generals and admirals were quite good. Rommel is probably the greatest tank commander to have ever lived. If he had been listened to, the Allies never would have secured a beach head on D-Day. Unfortunately, his higher ups were idiots. 1. Having a good economy has nothing to do with literacy. Cuba has a nigh 100% literacy rate. The United States on the other hand, has a relatively low literacy rate. 2. It is hardly sine qua non for industrialized soldiers to be able to read. How many of the soldiers in either of the world wars, Napoleonic wars, or American Revolution could read? How many of Saddam Hussein's soldiers do you think could read? 3. No matter how hard you try, with that many people, somewhere along the line stupid people will be in charge of other stupid people. If you really want to get technical, you can't lead six billion people with half your budget going to the military and the other half going to the police and churches either. |
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| Sistan | Oct 3 2005, 12:24 PM Post #38 |
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2nd Lieutenant
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If your medical process is no more advanced than "He's been shot. Get my saw and a bottle of brandy", then it's not irrelevent. And yes, you do have to be smart to be a good soldier. There is a word for stupid soldiers. Casualty. |
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| Tristan da Cunha | Oct 3 2005, 12:35 PM Post #39 |
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Science and Industry
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You are totally incorrect. Consider the Vietnam War. The United States Army, with ~100% literacy, ~100% high school graduation rate (I think), lots and lots of civil rights back at home, was defeated by an illiterate peasant North Vietnamese/Viet Cong Army. What made the difference is that the North Vietnamese had better fighting spirit, better commanders, higher mobilization, and better morale. Vietnamese communists mobilized their entire lives, nations, and livelihoods for the war, while the USA gave a half-hearted investment in this war. In fact, it is easily argued that better education and better living conditions at home LOWER morale among the rank and file. Why? Because the American/Sistanian has something to live for. Whether it is a nice car, a loving family, peace in the neighborhood, etc. Why would millions of American soldiers waste their lives in a huge war if he is educated, affluent, and living a good life? But the religiously intolerant, ignorant Paradisan has promises of heaven to die for. Sure there will be a few adventurers in the USA looking for death on the battlefield, but most Americans or Sistanians would rather stay at home, while the typical average Paradisan would rather die for their religion, thus echoing the ancient illiterate Arab Islamic hordes that defeated countless civilized empires in the 8th century to spread Islam by the sword. Paradise is as volatile and powerful as those tribal Arabs who had everything in heaven to die for. Except Paradise also has nukes. ;) You DON'T need a high average population intelligence to create an unstoppable army. There will always be an elite who can work the nuclear missiles, work the combat electronics, and come up with the brilliant strategies. This is made obvious considering that Paradise also has one of the world's largest Information Technology sectors. It would be BETTER for the army if the rank and file were total ignoramuses who only knew how to fight and die, and not question authority.
It is incorrect to look at things from your own, Western perspective. In a place like Paradise or Catholic Europe, the government will throw only religious heretics into gulags. People who follow laws and follow the religion live happily. Look at things through the eyes of a religious fanatic. Considering that Paradise has one of the most devout populations in NS, it is reasonable to assume that the vast majority of common people actually SUPPORT curtailing civil rights, in order to carry out their religious beliefs. Look at Algeria in real life - ordinary Algerians want to reduce civil rights because they are blinded by their faith. In most Middle Eastern democracies, anti-civil rights Islamist political parties do very well in polls. Most ordinary Middle Eastern Muslims look down upon the civil rights, womens' rights, gay rights, etc. of the West. They think there is no order or morality in the West. So of course the religious fanatic will rather help a government that is strict and moralistic rather than to help the sinful, decadent, careless enemy.
The Iraqi army was ruled with fear by a brutal secular dictator. The Paradisan Army, and the Catholic European Army, and certain other armies here, are not. They are motivated through pure religious devotion. Considering that Paradise is one of the most devout nations in the world, and that their government is a theocracy, I bet most Paradisan soldiers were motivated to fight simply because they love fighting for their religion. As such, the Paradisan soldiers are soldier-priests who are fervently and religiously devoted to their cause, and likely no normal amount of setbacks will cause them to question their God or their authorities. A highly educated army will constantly question commanders, quesiton the government, and question why are they dying so far away from home? I've already made these points in my debate with Patrua about the same subject, in the South African War thread. I couldn't get Patrua to agree with me, but I still think my points are more valid and more historically accurate. |
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| Tristan da Cunha | Oct 3 2005, 12:40 PM Post #40 |
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Science and Industry
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You don't have to be literate to be a good soldier. You can be smart in other ways. It is obvious that the NS "smartness" ranking largely describes literacy and reflects education spending. But unless we accept racist arguments, we can agree that the average Paradisan is as smart or dumb as the average CatholiC European or Patruan, even though the average Paradisan is far less formally educated. But they can still be as resourceful, and they probably have higher morale as I've pointed out. Furthermore, Paradise has plenty of competent managers in the country, as evidenced by the other rankings such as Information Technology, INdustrial Sector, etc. |
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| Tristan da Cunha | Oct 3 2005, 12:54 PM Post #41 |
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Science and Industry
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The problem with incompetent heads of state is easily avoided. Paradise can simply roleplay an intelligent leader. He doesn't have to repeat the mistakes of Hitler.
And who has the better military equipment and military research and development? Even the nation that does not concentrate on education can concentrate resources on military development to have a highly advanced army. Paradise perhaps uses many foreign experts in addition to recruiting from its own pool of talent, limited as it may be. Because in the end you can't deny that Paradise has a highly developed and efficient industrial sector, including in the high tech IT and military equipment fields.
Actually according to Nationstates official facts and figures Paradise is running along smoothly, even if most of the people are ignorant. There is almost no crime, the nation consistently has among the world's highest industrial output according to the UN charts, and according to Commerce Heights' economic calculator, Paradisan taxes are being collected on time with reasonable efficiency. Obviously something is working out, if the leaders can coordinate 6 billion people to run a consistently high performing and efficient government, society, and economy. |
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| Tristan da Cunha | Oct 3 2005, 01:22 PM Post #42 |
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Science and Industry
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Upon further inspection the Pipian calculator is completely useless. It apparently throws in random numbers that have nothing to do with military performance, makes historically inaccurate and anti-common sense judgments, and also ignores roleplayed factors like terrain, tactics, strategy, diplomacy, etc. In the world according to Pipian, two warring nations are huge amorphous floating blobs that bash into each other, the victor being the one with the higher of some random numbers. There is no credibility in this calculator. If what Nag Ehgoeg says is true, that Pipian doesn't even take into consideration war spending, then it must have casually ignored the fact that all major conventional wars between nations in the modern era have been wars of production, that is, the nation/alliance that can marshal up the most industrial resources will have an overwhelming advantage. |
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| Catholic Europe | Oct 3 2005, 02:22 PM Post #43 |
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Spammer
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Trilateral Commission: Whilst Paradise is one of the most devout nations in NS, Catholic Europe is the most devout nation in the whole of the NS (and has been for like over a year now). Paradise and its populace may be extremely devout but, compared to the average Catholic European, they are agnostic at best. Catholic Europeans are unrivalled in their piety and religiosity. Just thought that I would mention that. :P |
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| Paradise | Oct 3 2005, 02:32 PM Post #44 |
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Resident bureaucrat
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I don't want to start a debate about the intelligence of Hitler (damned Godwin's law ;) ), but you must admit that the militaro-corporatist elite behind the power was not stupid.
According to the CIA World Factbook, literacy in the US is at 97%. How can we call this a "relatively low literacy rate"?
Let's focus on contemporary era first. It's pointless to talk about the napoleonic wars or the american revolution, or even the first WW. I don't have the literacy rate statistics for soldiers during WWII, but for the USA, Canada, UK, France, Germany and maybe Italy, it must have been quite high because soldiers were relatively young. Saddam Hussein's Iraq can't be considered as an industrialized/modern state.
May we agree that the military budget could be splitted in education, healthcare and administration for the Defence department? I mean, the Army doesn't rely on public education or hospitals to take care of their own soldiers. They have their own military hospitals and their own education programs. Even if my military budget represents 50% of all my budget (and a very high % of GNP), that doesn't mean everything is spent on weapons and soldiers. * * * Sorry I must go. I have an econometrics course in 25 minutes! :o |
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| Nag Ehgoeg | Oct 3 2005, 04:00 PM Post #45 |
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The Devil's Advocate
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I don't know how it works in the US and Canadia but that's how it works in the UK. If I want to study a medical course I can do so privately funded out of my own pocket paying the university (no-one does this), I can apply through the healthcare system (who have to pay for the course, pay me for doing the course and pay me even more on a means tested basis because I'm poor) or I can apply through the Army who pay for it out of the Army budjet (but if I do this I gotta join the army for a term of service). The problem here is that military education is inferior to civilian. The other problem is that in such a cold and harsh nation as Paradise I doubt that the military doctors would treat civilian casualities. And even in your touchy feely nations the military doctors only help civilians in dire circumstances. Solution, bomb the crop feilds. That army can't feed itself. The old Pipin war calc didn't take Military Budjet into account when calculating Might. I'm not entirely sure about this new one - but the new one does list some of the factors it covers and military budjet doesn't feature into that. In a state of Martial Law (which, lets face it, Paradise is under 24/7) the military run everything. 50% of their budget goes into running the country and the rest is lost in red tape and "civilian" projects. |
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| Paradise | Oct 3 2005, 05:35 PM Post #46 |
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Resident bureaucrat
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:lol: I'm not the only one in the region living in a perpetual state of martial law :P I agree with your explanation though. We can say that 50% of the public budget goes to the military "sphere", which includes everything needed for this sphere to be self-sufficient (from education to healthcare to simple administrative tasks). The other 50% part of the public budget would go to the civilian sphere. |
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9:14 AM Jul 11