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Jerusalem
Topic Started: Sep 19 2005, 06:46 PM (342 Views)
Rhadamanthus
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Legitimist

Seeing as how the Holy City is no longer in the territory of any nation (Saint Jean de Acre had it as their capital but they are no longer here), the Emperor of the Resplendent Dawn would like to establish an outpost there. The purpose of the outpost is to gaurantee peace in the city, and to make sure that pilgrims and residents, or ALL faiths and ethnicities, are secure there. The Resplendent Dawn values the opinions of the international community, and will not repeat the Cypriot mistake. That is, we will listen to feedback from other nations prior to making any move. However, we feel that this is an important venture. To prove our goodwill to other religious groups, we are willing to invite their soldiers to join the outpost, though naturally, we would maintain control of it.

Yuhannon Ibrahim,
Foreign Minister of the Emperor of the Resplendent Dawn

OOC:
Yeah, it bothers me that Jerusalem doesn't matter in our ME. It doesn't feel right. So I figured I would start something with it. If your nation cares, IC, post a response. If you feel that this move is inappropriate, from an OOC perspective, then please also inform me, because I don't want to break any rules or do anything improper. Thanks.
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The Socialist Sheikdom of Egyria
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The Holy Prussian Empire
"We cannot offer any position at this time, although it was of the previous Sheik's opinion that Jerusalem should not be nationalized by any nation."
-Generals Ayyubid and Abbasid of the Egyrian 'Adhamah Guard
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NRE
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Map Tsar and Southern Gentleman

Oh behalf of NeoRome, we of Sardinia and Corsica support this move by the Replendent Dawn. I offer our assistance in maintaining peace within the city, though no religious group within NeoRome nor the colony has any interest in the city.

-Grand Governor Philippicus Bardanes
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Patrua
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Captain

OOC.
Oh boy... That takes me back a while. Back in the days, when only the oldies were around, someone tried this too. I can't remember... Not Dictatorship 'n Strife, they did it way later. I know there was a row about it. Aah, incomplete memories :rolleyes:

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Rhadamanthus
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Legitimist

Patrua
Sep 20 2005, 08:27 AM
OOC.
Oh boy... That takes me back a while. Back in the days, when only the oldies were around, someone tried this too. I can't remember... Not Dictatorship 'n Strife, they did it way later. I know there was a row about it. Aah, incomplete memories :rolleyes:

OOC:

:lol:

I don't expect the nation of Patrua to agree to this sort of thing, but I wanted to point out that we learned our lesson and announced our intentions this time, instead of just doing it like with Cyprus.
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Nag Ehgoeg
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The Devil's Advocate

Patrua
Sep 20 2005, 07:27 AM
OOC.
Oh boy... That takes me back a while. Back in the days, when only the oldies were around, someone tried this too. I can't remember... Not Dictatorship 'n Strife, they did it way later. I know there was a row about it. Aah, incomplete memories :rolleyes:

OOC: Back when we had the old forum NE claimed Jerusalem (being aitheist, we'd hold it safe and open to all), but seeing as NE was no where near the Holy City I kinda dropped that, then brought it back with DnS much later... but I distinctly remember taking over guarding Jerusalem from another nation, I just can't remember who... maybe Elias? From an OOC perspective I totally support you.

Nag Ehgoeg strongly opposes Resplendent Dawn's claim to the city. The Orthodox church has no viable claim to the city, in a secular nation or not.

The Office of the Regent states that RD's offer to let other nations station troops to help "guard" the city is decietful as they know that those intrested in the city for religous or historical reasons would never use modern weapons in the city for risk of destroying it.

Furthermore The Resplendent Dawn history of military conflict with Catholic Europe flies in the face of keeping the city open for all. Nag Ehgoeg would also like to declassify intelligence that suggests Resplendent Dawn is planning a military strike against the Holy League, as evidenced by it's recent militarisation.

To this end, Nag Ehgoeg has stepped up to a state of military alertness. Any attempt by Resplendent Dawn to take control of the city will be met with the forceful resistance. We urge other, closer, nations to act to stop the Orthodox church gaining control of this Holy and Historical site.

However, we do recognise that the nation of RD is larger than their church (albeit a powermad, authoratiarian and aitheist hating nation). To that end we recognise the merit in keeping the city open to all nations. Thus we suggest a new allience system be forged to protect the city, with no single nation being in "control of it".

To reiterate, we are happy with you setting up a colony to guard the city. We are happy for others to help guard the city. We will not, under any circumstances, see Jerusalem held by a single nation - secular or otherwise.

Your Friends In Nag Ehgoeg.
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Rhadamanthus
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Nag Ehgoeg
Sep 20 2005, 09:37 AM
Nag Ehgoeg strongly opposes Resplendent Dawn's claim to the city. The Orthodox church has no viable claim to the city, in a secular nation or not.

Why is the Orthodox Church's claim less viable than anybody else's? The Orthodox Patriarchate of Jerusalem is the largest landowner in the city (In Real Life, at least) and that Church has existed there since times described in the New Testament. Our claim is as good as most peoples.


Quote:
 
The Office of the Regent states that RD's offer to let other nations station troops to help "guard" the city is decietful as they know that those intrested in the city for religous or historical reasons would never use modern weapons in the city for risk of destroying it.

Modern Weapons are not necessary. We are not seeking to fight, just to make sure ethnic and religious violence does not occur. The purpose of this offer was so that other nations could check our policies and make sure they are even handed.

Quote:
 
Furthermore The Resplendent Dawn history of military conflict with Catholic Europe flies in the face of keeping the city open for all. Nag Ehgoeg would also like to declassify intelligence that suggests Resplendent Dawn is planning a military strike against the Holy  League, as evidenced by it's recent militarisation.

We have had one conflict with the Papal Empire. In the old days, we had good relations with them. Furthermore, the Dawn was the victim in the recent war, as can be accertained by the clear cut opinion of the international community. Furthermore, Project: Wisdom is about defensive alertness, not offense. Do you seriously think we are in any position to strike at the Holy League?

Quote:
 
To this end, Nag Ehgoeg has stepped up to a state of military alertness. Any attempt by Resplendent Dawn to take control of the city will be met with the forceful resistance. We urge other, closer, nations to act to stop the Orthodox church gaining control of this Holy and Historical site.

The Orthodox Patriarchate of Jerusalem already exists there. The Church has no need of gaining "control" of that site. Furthermore, all religions, including Catholics, are tolerated in the Empire, and thus, there is nothing to fear from us.

Quote:
 
However, we do recognise that the nation of RD is larger than their church (albeit a powermad, authoratiarian and aitheist hating nation). To that end we recognise the merit in keeping the city open to all nations. Thus we suggest a new allience system be forged to protect the city, with no single nation being in "control of it".

We have never, to our knowledge, shown hate for atheists. They are welcome in our nation.

Quote:
 
To reiterate, we are happy with you setting up a colony to guard the city. We are happy for others to help guard the city. We will not, under any circumstances, see Jerusalem held by a single nation - secular or otherwise.


Well, we did offer to allow others to aid us. It was not exactly what you want, but you can't say we didn't at least try to involve others.


Yuhannon Ibrahim,
Foreign Minister
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Nag Ehgoeg
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The Devil's Advocate

Quote:
 
Nag Ehgoeg
Sep 20 2005, 09:37 AM
Nag Ehgoeg strongly opposes Resplendent Dawn's claim to the city. The Orthodox church has no viable claim to the city, in a secular nation or not.

Why is the Orthodox Church's claim less viable than anybody else's? The Orthodox Patriarchate of Jerusalem is the largest landowner in the city (In Real Life, at least) and that Church has existed there since times described in the New Testament. Our claim is as good as most peoples.


By "no viable claim" we meant that any given state in the middle east could wipe the floor with your military. If the Orthodox church wishes to flaunt it's control of the city in such a flagrent matter as it has then it should expect contition. We do not believe that The Resplendent Dawn could keep Jerusalem safe.

Quote:
 
Quote:
 
The Office of the Regent states that RD's offer to let other nations station troops to help "guard" the city is decietful as they know that those intrested in the city for religous or historical reasons would never use modern weapons in the city for risk of destroying it.

Modern Weapons are not necessary. We are not seeking to fight, just to make sure ethnic and religious violence does not occur. The purpose of this offer was so that other nations could check our policies and make sure they are even handed.


So you claim.

Quote:
 
Quote:
 
Furthermore The Resplendent Dawn history of military conflict with Catholic Europe flies in the face of keeping the city open for all. Nag Ehgoeg would also like to declassify intelligence that suggests Resplendent Dawn is planning a military strike against the Holy  League, as evidenced by it's recent militarisation.

We have had one conflict with the Papal Empire. In the old days, we had good relations with them. Furthermore, the Dawn was the victim in the recent war, as can be accertained by the clear cut opinion of the international community. Furthermore, Project: Wisdom is about defensive alertness, not offense. Do you seriously think we are in any position to strike at the Holy League?


Every time a nation of the middle east begins increasing it's arms, it's under the flag of "defense". While RD may not be in a possition to strike at the Catholic giant as-of-yet that does not mean that ill will is not still harboured against the Papacy, especailly as RD was, as you say, "the victim".


Quote:
 
Quote:
 
To this end, Nag Ehgoeg has stepped up to a state of military alertness. Any attempt by Resplendent Dawn to take control of the city will be met with the forceful resistance. We urge other, closer, nations to act to stop the Orthodox church gaining control of this Holy and Historical site.

The Orthodox Patriarchate of Jerusalem already exists there. The Church has no need of gaining "control" of that site. Furthermore, all religions, including Catholics, are tolerated in the Empire, and thus, there is nothing to fear from us.

Quote:
 
However, we do recognise that the nation of RD is larger than their church (albeit a powermad, authoratiarian and aitheist hating nation). To that end we recognise the merit in keeping the city open to all nations. Thus we suggest a new allience system be forged to protect the city, with no single nation being in "control of it".

We have never, to our knowledge, shown hate for atheists. They are welcome in our nation.


We quote "Abortions are carried out secretly in shady backstreet clinics, atheists are heavily taxed, The Resplendent Dawn's fine wines are renowned throughout the region, and the nation's infamous boot camp is more brutal then most battlefields. Crime is totally unknown, thanks to the all-pervasive police force". If that doesn't show both the government's brutal attitudes and discrimination against those of no religion then I'm not sure what does. The fact that atheists are discriminated against within your nation suggests that the needs atheists wanting the city for historical reasons would be placed below religious pilgrims. Nag Ehgoeg defends the athiest.

Quote:
 
Quote:
 
To reiterate, we are happy with you setting up a colony to guard the city. We are happy for others to help guard the city. We will not, under any circumstances, see Jerusalem held by a single nation - secular or otherwise.


Well, we did offer to allow others to aid us. It was not exactly what you want, but you can't say we didn't at least try to involve others.


Yuhannon Ibrahim,
Foreign Minister


Indeed, however this policy does not go far enough. Now this matter has been brought to our attension we demand independence for Jerusalem.
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Rhadamanthus
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Legitimist

OOC:
I wrote the previous response when I had five minutes before class this morning. I will not defend it further, since I don't feel it is up to quality.

The atheist tax thing. Ugh... Well, for me I didn't like any of the options on that issue, and I didn't want to ignore it, so I ended up with that one. However, you should note, that our average tax rate is a full 100%, so whatever extra tax the atheist pays can hardly be described as hate, or brutal activity. However, I will admit that there is a certain, indirect tax, on atheists and other non-Orthodox, in the sense that the Orthodox Church gets tax money and others don't.

"Every time a nation of the middle east begins increasing it's arms, it's under the flag of "defense". "
What of your own recent military growth?

IC:

"We have heard the criticisms of Nag Ehgoeg, and will consider them. However, we will consider the feedback of the rest of the nations of the region prior to making a decision. However, we feel the need to reiterate that we have no hostile intention toward any nation, ethnicity, or religious opinion. The Empire is proud of its treatment of religious minorities. The harshest treatment of religious minority in our history, was that of Catholics during the unfortunate war with the Papacy. However, that was justified by the fact that their loyalty lay with the aggressor in that war, and their full rights have been restored in the time following the war.

The Resplendent Dawn hopes to restore the city to its glory, by improving not just the Christian temples of the cities, by mosques, synagogues, and buildings of other historical importance as well. We do not think this is an unreasonable action, an we look forward to hearing from other nations of the Middle East."

-Yuhannon Ibrahim
Foreign Minister


SCORE SO FAR:
(nations that have voiced an opinion: Egyria, Sardinia and Corsica, Nag Ehgoeg, Prussia, Wadj)
For: 2
Against: 3
Neutral: 0
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Nag Ehgoeg
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The Devil's Advocate

OOC: Hey you don't have to defend yourself ooc, far as I'm concerned this is strictly an IC thing. I don't care if you have the city, Nag Ehgoeg is arming itself to launch an attack on ... uh ... someone and we all know issues have unforseen concequences - you could attack the fact that religion is practically outlawed in NE, and most of our athiest researchers would do serious damage to the city. I'm only kicking up a fuss so this thread isn't a mass of people saying "I support RD."

IC:

~Icy stares~
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Rhadamanthus
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Legitimist

OOC:
Yeah, I was using OOC to explain things I wasn't able to effectively explain IC. To be honest, though, I don't expect to be able to get this move through. There are enough other powerful nations, I believe, that would join NE in opposing the move.
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The Socialist Sheikdom of Egyria
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The Holy Prussian Empire
OOC: Egyria isn't really neutral... they're vehemently against it, but the candidates and the generals cannot technically dictate policy, but just do what the last Sheik did - and while Kazali had an opinion, the matter never came up. It's possible that an emergency referendum might come about though

IC:

"I am adamantly against the proposal put forth by The Resplendent Dawn. This is an unsually militaristic move by the Orthodox Church, who we consider to be our allies against Catholic aggresion, and I am distressed by it. I am in support of Nag Ehgoeg's actions."
-Neu Kaiser Gustavus Adolphus of the Holy Prussian Empire
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Rhadamanthus
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The Socialist Sheikdom of Egyria
Sep 20 2005, 03:10 PM
OOC: Egyria isn't really neutral... they're vehemently against it, but the candidates and the generals cannot technically dictate policy, but just do what the last Sheik did - and while Kazali had an opinion, the matter never came up. It's possible that an emergency referendum might come about though

IC:

"I am adamantly against the proposal put forth by The Resplendent Dawn. This is an unsually militaristic move by the Orthodox Church, who we consider to be our allies against Catholic aggresion, and I am distressed by it. I am in support of Nag Ehgoeg's actions."
-Neu Kaiser Gustavus Adolphus of the Holy Prussian Empire

Sigh...


IC:
We would like to inform the Neu Kaiser that we are surprised at his comments. Militaristic? In what manner? We seek to maintain and secure the Holy City? We seek to make sure that the shrines of all faiths, and the historical landmarks of the land are kept in good repair. We seek to make sure that all pilgrims, including Protestants Neu Kaiser, are able to access the city. Is that bad?

Finally, we would like to recommend the Neu Kaiser that the Resplendent Dawn and the Orthodox Church are not synonomous. The Church does not conquer lands; it is made up of people, not places. The Church already exists in Jerusalem, and we do not intend to force a single soul to convert against their will. The Resplendent Dawn seeks to maintain the city, and keep it accessable. The Church of Antioch supports this move, because it is in its own interests, and the interests of all people of all beliefs."

Yuhannon Ibrahim
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Nag Ehgoeg
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OOC: Just to be clear, NE isn't gonna see it that way. You can blame CE for that.

[Edit]

I was refereing to the Church and the nation.
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Wadj
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The Very Model of a Modern Major General
Wadj fully supports the Resplendend Dawn in their wish to secure the Holy City of Jerusalem. We believe that they would create a safe environment for all faiths to worship at their holy sites. However, we understand that many nations may be against such a move. The Resplendent Dawn, while I do not question their motives, is not a secular state. While its citizens are not required to be Orthodox, it is the state religion. This can cause some nations to be worried that they will not be allowed access to their holy sites, though I do not believe that this will be an issue. I propose this, then: let their be a joint Wadji-Dawnsian occupation of the city. Wadj is a secular nation. Religion plays no part in our government. We will ensure that all religions are allowed to worship at Jerusalem without exception. Think over this. Jerusalem must be protected, and because it is so holy it cannot be governed by one religion. Ironically, the most holy site in the Judaeo/Christian/Muslim world is the one that must have no one single religion in domination.

--Sultan Ibrahim of Wadj
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Rhadamanthus
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Legitimist

The Resplendent Dawn is willing to comply with the proposal set out by Wadj. We are thankful that they see the importance of this situation and are willing to trust our motives in this regard, and we welcome the Wadji forces to join us in this effort according to the terms the Sultan himself proposed.

YI
Foreign Minister
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The Socialist Sheikdom of Egyria
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The Holy Prussian Empire
"We reiterate that it was of the previous Sheik's opinion that Jerusalem should not be nationalized. Egyrian public opinion is with the late Sheik's, and Wadji-Dawnsian relationships may be strained by action taken."
-Generals Ayyubid and Abbasid of the Egyrian 'Adhamah Guard
Socialist Candidate Saddam bin Mohammed
Conservative Candidate Jafar bin Salah

"I am against any scheme would present a bias in what should be a neutral zone. Wadji-Dawnsian occupation would, even if unintentionally, be biased towards the Orthodox Church and Islam. My position stands."
-Neu Kaiser Gustavus Adolphus of the Holy Prussian Empire
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Rhadamanthus
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Legitimist

With regard to Egyria's opinion, we don't suppose that the new Sheikh will change anything? As for Prussia, we have noted your opinion and will take it under consideration. Thank you for your input.

Yuhannon Ibrahim
Foreign Minister of the Resplendent Dawn


OOC:
Think there's any chance CE will aprove of this? <_<
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Nag Ehgoeg
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The Devil's Advocate

Nag Ehgoeg nominally supports the a Wadj-Dawnian claim on the city, providing other nations are allowed to station troops to protect the city under soveriegn command.
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Catholic Europe
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Catholic Europe is vehemently opposed to any kind of Orthodox Dawnsian military presence in the Holy Land.

Any moves that the Dawnsian government make in respect to this issue will be seen as a military move and one that is against us. We will be forced to take action if Jerusalem comes under their sole control.

Pope Cristiano VII
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Rhadamanthus
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Catholic Europe
Sep 21 2005, 02:59 PM
Catholic Europe is vehemently opposed to any kind of Orthodox Dawnsian military presence in the Holy Land.

Any moves that the Dawnsian government make in respect to this issue will be seen as a military move and one that is against us. We will be forced to take action if Jerusalem comes under their sole control.

Pope Cristiano VII

Well then, we would like to humbly inform you that the issue right now is not one of our sole control. The current version of the plan is to undertake this as a joint venture with Wadj, and to invite other nations to place their own contingents, as described in the last statement of Nag Ehgoeg. You need not see this as any sort of military move, and it in no logical way, a move against Your Holiness.

Yuhannon Ibrahim, Foreign Minister
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Nag Ehgoeg
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The Devil's Advocate

Nag Ehgoeg will defend Dawnsian forces in the event that Catholic Europe tries to take sole control of the Holy City as we are opposed to any single power controlling the city.

If, however, Catholic Europe is willing to pair itself with another non-Christian nation to guard the Holy Land we will be forced to call our commitment to the Wadj-Dawn propsal into question.
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The Socialist Sheikdom of Egyria
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The Holy Prussian Empire
"There should be no occupation of Jerusalem by any nation. It should become a UN international zone."
-Neu Kaiser Gustavus Adolphus
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Nag Ehgoeg
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The Devil's Advocate

Nag Ehgoeg would idealy see the city held by the UN. However we are unable to spearhead such an initive (for obvious reasons) and do not believe any leaderless nation could ensure the security of the City.

Should a new UN delegate arise who is able to protect the City, Nag Ehgoeg as a UN member-state would do it's part to maintain the indepedence of Jerusalem.

In liue of this, we support the Dawn-Wadj motion.
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Catholic Europe
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The Holy City must remain independant of any troops. To station weapons of war in the Holiest of Cities is blasphemy.

It must remain autonomous of any foreign power. God rules that city not us.

Pope Cristiano VII
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