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South African War Archive
Topic Started: May 28 2005, 01:27 PM (1,699 Views)
Xeres and Catalonia
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News: Spencer DeVega reporting, imbedded with X&C marines -

As we move further and further into the interior of South Africa, we are coming across villages completely empty of all living beings. These villages used to be all black farming towns, and, quite honestly, the residents have vanished. There is no blood, no sign of a struggle, no mass graves; in some places tables are still set with food, and fires are smoldering, yet there is no sign of the former populations.

Speculation is running wild. Have they been taken with the retreating SA army as a sort of protective hostage? Have they simply run to the hills at the sight of the armed forces? Have they already been sold into slavery? We just don't know.

As we leave one town, we enter another, where we encounter the same conditions. We wonder aloud what this mad ruler has done. We will continue to look for clues, or witnesses, to find the answer to this mystery.
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Comrade Queen
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Comrade Bitchqueen
With Yshurak's presence in the South African conflict approved by the European Peace Council, the Yshurakan forces have organized a march to the inland territories. Combat became heated and stewed as many of South Africa's white ethnic population had been fleeing South from the capital, so was the remaining bulk of its military, causing Yshurak to meet them head on.

Although the troops from Yshurak are well trained in the ways of warfare, they're outnumbered by the South African force. Generals organized several brilliant plans to surround the South African troops and cut their numbers into different sections. Out of the entire war, one of the bloodiest battles had been fought, causing numerous casualties.
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Al Araam
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Demigod of Death & Inactivity

The 20 divisions from Akam De have served largely as rear guards throughout the campaign. They have played a reasonably passive role in the fighting. The Imperial Navy and Airforce are a different story. The carrier battle groups have pressed forward as South African naval forces are driven back. Their fighters have helped UN forces establish air superiority over the land and water of South Africa. In the later stages of the war after air superiority had been established, carrier-based fighters have struck at supply convoys and infrastructure targets as well as providing close air support for coalition troops.


*Edit* Triple posting, two prior to this one have been removed
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NRE
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Map Tsar and Southern Gentleman

News from the War torn capital of Acropolis:

Prince Alexander commented today that he is grateful for the Yshurak presence in South Africa. He is grateful that their government answered the call for help that his brother, NeoCaesar Julius Augustus issued. Truly Neo-Macedonians will be indebted to Yshurak as well as all the nations in the coalition forces.
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Syawla
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Pleasuring a cucumber with butter
 *  *  *  *  *  *
Syawlan Troops have seized control of the South African capital, Pretoria by symbolically capturing the national Parliament's house and placing the Syawlan flag on top of it. UN troops can be seen still engaged in street-fighting around the former Presidential Palace by Syawlan troops at the Parliament House, who have now gone to the assistance of their allies taking part in such fighting. The noose has been tightened around the very jugular of this regime and it is at the point of strangulation.

Syawlan Regional Ambassador
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Menhad
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ET2(IDW)
until an surrender from South Africa i will take cities at my will
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Tristan da Cunha
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Science and Industry
Quote:
 
That only makes sense on the premisse that only the Americans would use these kind of weapons. However, if the Taliban and Al-Qaeda would also, then the advantage is lost. I mean getting the Twin Towers down is one thing, if they'd taken a load of ricine with it (even a handful), the results would have been quite different.

In real life the US would not use overwhelming force on civilian areas or WMD on enemies, and that is why the Afghanistan problem won't be solved for the near future. But we do know that in real life the tiny amount of biological agents Al Qaeda may or may not have would be far less deadly than the armaments of the US, which does possess the world's largest and deadliest reserves of WMD, both chemical and biological. If Al Qaeda could unload a tiny bit of germs in lower New York, the US could eradicate the entire population of Afghanistan. Firepower-wise, the US has an advantage over all the other nations in the world combined, although the other nations have advantage in morale; Americans become panicked when 1,000 are killed in New York but Indonesians or Chinese don't even blink when 100,000 are killed in those countries. In RP, however, we don't keep track of morale or human rights as much, so a roleplayed America would have no problem with using the nastiest weapons, and using them on civilians as well as soldiers.

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The Serbians did quite well under the NATO bombardments. Using intelligence, they lured bombers into bombing mock target and NATO eventually ran out of targets. You can't win a war with bombs alone.

Given all the human rights laws in real life, then bombs will not solve everything, and you'll need to put troops on the ground to tell apart the enemy civilians from the enemy soldiers or the good target from the bad target. But in RP situations firepower is so much more important. In real life NATO was forced to pick targets because it would be bad to bomb a residential area. But on this forum we'd never run out of targets like NATO did. An apartment building is as good a target as an enemy satellite station. The kind of war I'm RPing with a human rights violater nations seeks to annihilate the enemy with indiscriminate killing power. South Africa does not care for picking out targets and collecting intelligence on where this or that is. I'd just hit everything.

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There's different kinds of military per capita configurations too. Maybe your army is large enough but hopeless in a war.

Your standards for military per capita "configurations" are arbitrary. Strictly by UN chart standings, Antebellum South has a larger military-industrial complex than any of the other nations fighting in southern Africa. The tinpot scandinavian liberal paradises that I'm fighting would have to work for a while to bring down a large war economy like Soth Africas.

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Their education funds allocation (that's also an issue in NS) was quite high. The nazis didn't use jet planes first, or rockets and the Soviet Union didn't go into space as the very first country on Earth (with military applications running forth from that) because they only raised soldiers.

I spend plenty of money researching satellites, rockets, nukes, etc. Antebellum South spends everything it can for military-oriented science, and the smartest and most talented citizens are inevitably sucked into working for the military bureaucracy. This results in my country having large Arms Manufacturing and Information Technology industries, IIRC the largest in Africa. Although the average of my nation is overwhelmingly crude and illiterate and neglected by public education/welfare, there are plenty of talented people who can run the necessary tasks of state. In Antebellum South I burn books and art but I also encourage people to invent deadlier weapons and maximize killing efficiency on the battlefield.

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Yep, but guerrilla soldiers ain't gonna pilot your F-16s, B-52's or Aircraft Carriers.

Antebellum south has specially trained experts to do that. But the religious fervor of the common man gives our guerillas an edge when street warfare begins (although in the current war, black guerillas will be quite adept at rebellion).
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Patrua
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Trilateral Commission
Jun 25 2005, 04:51 PM
If Al Qaeda could unload a tiny bit of germs in lower New York, the US could eradicate the entire population of Afghanistan. Firepower-wise, the US has an advantage over all the other nations in the world combined, although the other nations have advantage in morale; Americans become panicked when 1,000 are killed in New York but Indonesians or Chinese don't even blink when 100,000 are killed in those countries.

The Americans falter when they are struck at their homes and lose a couple o' thousand civvies. Saying that Al-Qaeda can't lash out severely with biological agents to the US is like saying that they couldn't attack the Pentagon and the WTC in one and the same day. Sure the US could poison them all, but warfare that way contains a lot of other long-term and indirect risks that eventually can treathen themselves. It wouldn't pay off in the long run. And maybe not in the short one. If my auntie had balls, she'd be my uncle, you know?

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In RP, however, we don't keep track of morale or human rights as much, so a roleplayed America would have no problem with using the nastiest weapons, and using them on civilians as well as soldiers.

Erm, you haven't been around here much, have you? Seen the UN report on Patrua's Human Rights conditions? Seen the response Scythirus got for dropping a nuke? See what happened to Kaduiri for using chlorine gas to attack? Seen the results of the Catholic morale both in the First War of Succession and during their uprising in Patrua? All have been roleplayed excellently.

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An apartment building is as good a target as an enemy satellite station.

I'm sure it is, but it won't result in much. Killing civilians is not exactly what stopped the Palestinian Intifadas or the Iraqi insurgence. Quite the contrary, I would say.

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Your standards for military per capita "configurations" are arbitrary. Strictly by UN chart standings, Antebellum South has a larger military-industrial complex than any of the other nations fighting in southern Africa.

Quite the same goes for your intelligence "configurations" which by magical fluke don't seem to affect your military at all.

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I spend plenty of money researching satellites, rockets, nukes, etc. Antebellum South spends everything it can for military-oriented science, and the smartest and most talented citizens are inevitably sucked into working for the military bureaucracy. This results in my country having large Arms Manufacturing and Information Technology industries, IIRC the largest in Africa. Although the average of my nation is overwhelmingly crude and illiterate and neglected by public education/welfare, there are plenty of talented people who can run the necessary tasks of state. In Antebellum South I burn books and art but I also encourage people to invent deadlier weapons and maximize killing efficiency on the battlefield.

Aaah, like somebody with a low military rating can claim by using your method that it is equally as strong as you since all the very best at fighting and strategy are to be found in the army. While the crude masses aren't. Okey dokey. If I ever need to arbitrate in those matters, then I'll use this flexible rating thingy. Without exception for any rating.
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The Socialist Sheikdom of Egyria
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The Holy Prussian Empire
I did an essay on American violations of international law and protocol for my English class this year.

Among numerous others, I made note that the United States used depleted uranium shells in Desert Storm, with ghastly consequences.

Because uranium is so dense, it gives a round excellent penetration power. But this "depleted uranium" isn't depleted of radiation.

There were numerous reports after Desert Storm of contaminated water supplies, increased cancer rates, even a few mutations. This devastated citizens who barely had anything to rebuild with anyway.

But hey, who cares right? We won, didn't we? :rolleyes:

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Tristan da Cunha
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Quote:
 
Erm, you haven't been around here much, have you? Seen the UN report on Patrua's Human Rights conditions? Seen the response Scythirus got for dropping a nuke? See what happened to Kaduiri for using chlorine gas to attack? Seen the results of the Catholic morale both in the First War of Succession and during their uprising in Patrua? All have been roleplayed excellently.

A UN report is just a farce, less than a slap on the wrist. Scythirus is alive and well, isn't he? When the human rights brigade comes to complain about war crimes, it makes for excellent diplomatic/conversational RPing, but the whole world isn't going to invade the offender. In a roleplayed war, we'll always go for the jugular.

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Quite the same goes for your intelligence "configurations" which by magical fluke don't seem to affect your military at all.

It's not going to. Unless my people are biologically inferior and inherently less intelligent, there will always be many talented individuals who rise up beyond their peers. The intelligence rankings mean little. Low intelligence can only improve the fighting spirit of the rank and file, and even then it's not that big of a deal when you consider firepower. Furthermore, to show that the intelligence chart is not too relevant, Antebellum South does have the region's largest IT sector even though we're so generally stupid. There's got to be plenty of smart programmers and technicians around for that to happen.
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I'm sure it is, but it won't result in much. Killing civilians is not exactly what stopped the Palestinian Intifadas or the Iraqi insurgence. Quite the contrary, I would say.

Killing a few thousand here and there won't do a thing, it will just inflame the survivors. But in RP we have billion people superpowers that can completely annihilate enemies with sheer devastating firepower. Any insurgency on this forum can be easily defeated with indiscriminate genocide.

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Aaah, like somebody with a low military rating can claim by using your method that it is equally as strong as you since all the very best at fighting and strategy are to be found in the army. While the crude masses aren't. Okey dokey. If I ever need to arbitrate in those matters, then I'll use this flexible rating thingy. Without exception for any rating.

A Left Wing Utopia can claim to have a highly skilled officer corps, and I'll accept that. And they can say their masses are educated or stupid or whatever. Intelligence doesn't really matter, because they still probably are not as strong as a corporate dictatorship. A low military per capita country might have highly specialized and educated officers, but they probably won't have the guns and bombs to do much on the battlefield. And firepower is determined by UN rankings - per capita military force, arms manufacturing, etc. Besides the winter thing, Russia did win WWII by having the largest industrial output in the world tucked behind the Ural Mountains, allowing them to grind down their enemies.
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Patrua
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To me, the intelligence thing in NationStates has as much value and is worth as much consideration as the military. You can't downplay one option and sanctify the other. You take it all or nothing, not just pick out the bits that suit you. I'll always take both into consideration. Now, if the average intelligence is low, than to me it's low even if if all the brains are located in arms manufacturing, IT and the army they'll still be of lower intelligence of a intelligent nation. Cause they can say that they do the same and since their average intelligence is higher than yours, then that means they have can outsmart your pundits in almost every position where it matters. Matter of statistics.

Patrua has the highest IT in the Middle East, is the #9 smartest and has the #4 strongest military. Now I'm going to tell you once again, we have bought most of our weapons (despite getting the #8 position in the Middle East in arms manufacturing). We don't need arms manufacturing to be strong and neither does anybody else. I'll never consider arms manufacturing to play that much of a role.

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Tristan da Cunha
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Quote:
 
To me, the intelligence thing in NationStates has as much value and is worth as much consideration as the military. You can't downplay one option and sanctify the other. You take it all or nothing, not just pick out the bits that suit you. I'll always take both into consideration. Now, if the average intelligence is low, than to me it's low even if if all the brains are located in arms manufacturing, IT and the army they'll still be of lower intelligence of a intelligent nation. Cause they can say that they do the same and since their average intelligence is higher than yours, then that means they have can outsmart your pundits in almost every position where it matters. Matter of statistics.


I take into full consideration statistics that are relevant, and according to the Nationstates game model, the masses' intelligence (which in NS clearly refers to education level) has little effect on the way the country is run. For example Antebellum South has a few billion less people than Patrua, yet has a larger IT sector. Even if you claim that Patrua's brains are all working in technology and research, the matter of statistics show that, similar to many many real-life counterintuitive tech gaps, Antebellum South's IT pundits are more efficient than most nations', including ones with well-funded public schools and highly literate masses. And if that is the case, it would not be a stretch for me to assume that I have enough smart people in my nation to build a bridge in a combat zone or operate the artillery guns, as I put the highest national priority in the military. Furthermore the assumption that a more educated officer will always defeat the less educated officer is false, as is the belief that battle sense can always be picked up in a military academy. Leadership in war takes a combination of charisma, devotion, and instinct.

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Patrua has the highest IT in the Middle East, is the #9 smartest and has the #4 strongest military. Now I'm going to tell you once again, we have bought most of our weapons (despite getting the #8 position in the Middle East in arms manufacturing). We don't need arms manufacturing to be strong and neither does anybody else. I'll never consider arms manufacturing to play that much of a role.

Now you're the one downplaying your weaknesses. A large home industry is always helpful, and in case the war drags out too long it is good to have factories behind you constantly churning out replacements for equipment lost in the initial fighting. All conventional wars up to now have been match-ups of production. No matter how good Finland's officers were, Russia inevitably won the Winter War, since Russia simply built more bullets and tanks. Both world wars' outcomes were largely decided by the industrial capacity of the participants, and despite Speer's best efforts, Germany was defeated simply because there was way more coal in Pennsylvania and Siberia than there was in the Rhineland. In short-term wars and localized guerilla wars, production is not as big a factor, but when we deal with huge tank battles arms manufacturing is everything. Since most wars on this forum flare up and calm down pretty quickly, countries with less war industry mobilization capacity have been spared so far.
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Patrua
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I take into full consideration statistics that are relevant, and according to the Nationstates game model, the masses' intelligence (which in NS clearly refers to education level) has little effect on the way the country is run.

And according to the Nationstates model, a nation's army clearly is based on military spending and industrial output of the arms manufacturing, both of which have little effect on the way an army will perform.

It isn't that hard to grasp: a nation has higher average intelligence, thus statistically has more chance of having more extremely smart people. If a nation with high intelligence pulls your trick and puts its brightest in the army, then they'll have more potential. Pure statistics. It also means that your pundits are likely to be outsmarted by the others.

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For example Antebellum South has a few billion less people than Patrua, yet has a larger IT sector. Even if you claim that Patrua's brains are all working in technology and research, the matter of statistics show that, similar to many many real-life counterintuitive tech gaps, Antebellum South's IT pundits are more efficient than most nations', including ones with well-funded public schools and highly literate masses.

You have a higher IT sector than Patrua- which is a mere mirrornation of which the issues haven't been updated in ages. patrua has a far bigger IT sector and that is where you should be comparing yourself to when dealing with a mirrornation. Revise that theory.

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Furthermore the assumption that a more educated officer will always defeat the less educated officer is false, as is the belief that battle sense can always be picked up in a military academy. Leadership in war takes a combination of charisma, devotion, and instinct.

So is your assumption that a larger or better equipped army always defeats a less well-equipped or smaller army. Or that a nation that devotes most of its means to the army will always defeat one that puts its priorities elsewhere.

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Now you're the one downplaying your weaknesses.

Whilst being in the top-ten arms manufacturing of the Middle East? Then my "weakness" must be a role-played one.

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All conventional wars up to now have been match-ups of production. No matter how good Finland's officers were, Russia inevitably won the Winter War, since Russia simply built more bullets and tanks.

Here's to a war that first wasn't relevant and now suddenly is. And the Russians didn't advance very far with their tanks. Karelia is hardly Ukraine.

Another thing is that as long as you can guarantee a stable supply of all these from the nations you purchase them off, there's no 'weakness'. And all arm-producing nations are keen on having clients stuck in a war. There's no reason that a nation would suffer from not having an arms manufacturing industry if the weapons and spare parts keep coming in.
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NRE
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Map Tsar and Southern Gentleman

OOC: Would it be premature of me to begin Neo-Macedonia's reconstruction and reform? I was hoping to wait until the war was officially over, with South Africa's surrender to the UN and Coalition forces, but as far as I know it hasn't happen yet. So unless it's coming soon, I'd like to begin the reform and construction.
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Xeres and Catalonia
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TheNeoRomanEmpire
Jun 29 2005, 09:22 PM
OOC: Would it be premature of me to begin Neo-Macedonia's reconstruction and reform? I was hoping to wait until the war was officially over, with South Africa's surrender to the UN and Coalition forces, but as far as I know it hasn't happen yet. So unless it's coming soon, I'd like to begin the reform and construction.

I think what we are doing at the peace conference is kinda like Yalta. Dividing up the pie prior to surrender. You are kinda like France, the nazis are out, but the war isn't over yet. I think you could easily begin your rebuilding.
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Xeres and Catalonia
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Xeres and Catalonia has ordered the withdrawal of all troups in NeoMasadonia, and is withdrawing all troups from South Africa to make way for the UN troups. We shall leave a force of 2,500 marines as a poloice force, under the command of the proper UN authorities.
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Tristan da Cunha
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Science and Industry

Now that Patrua's back I can argue some more.

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And according to the Nationstates model, a nation's army clearly is based on military spending and industrial output of the arms manufacturing, both of which have little effect on the way an army will perform.

Huh? In practically every war in history military spending decides the outcome. In Vietnam it may not be obvious that the VC were lavish military spendings, but in reality peasant Vientam society was completely mobilized for war, so in terms of personal and material sacrifice for the war effort, the Veitnamese dedicated an enormous percentage of their society's ouput to waging war. This is further demonstrated by their quick and successful mobilization against Cambodia and China in the 1970s. WWII of course is the classic example of the greater industrial power dominating a lesser industrial nation.

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It isn't that hard to grasp: a nation has higher average intelligence, thus statistically has more chance of having more extremely smart people. If a nation with high intelligence pulls your trick and puts its brightest in the army, then they'll have more potential. Pure statistics. It also means that your pundits are likely to be outsmarted by the others.

Clearly, when nationstate refers to "intelligence" it refers to "book smarts." The average brainpower of all nations and all humanity is the same, unless we admit racist arguments. But the average learning and erudition is unequal. And book smarts aren't really relevant to war as long as the soldiers are fanatical and destructive. No pundits are needed, the military sciences is not punditry, but an instinct that a peasant of no formal education can master as well as a gentleman scholar of war.

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All conventional wars up to now have been match-ups of production. No matter how good Finland's officers were, Russia inevitably won the Winter War, since Russia simply built more bullets and tanks.
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Here's to a war that first wasn't relevant and now suddenly is. And the Russians didn't advance very far with their tanks. Karelia is hardly Ukraine.


This war is relevant to my point, but not your point. Spartan and Finnish bravery has always been futile. Think about it... people can extol the Finnish leadership and individual bravery to no end, but the final strategic/political outcome was completely in favor of russia, and the war was decided by Russia's tactics of applying massive firepower and cannon fodder. Sure Russia lost a lot of men, but in the end finland capitulated and Russia could have annexed the whole nation if Stalin was in such a ruthless mood.


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Whilst being in the top-ten arms manufacturing of the Middle East? Then my "weakness" must be a role-played one.

The difference in realtive ranking is clearer in the world rankings, if I recall corectly.
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Another thing is that as long as you can guarantee a stable supply of all these from the nations you purchase them off, there's no 'weakness'. And all arm-producing nations are keen on having clients stuck in a war. There's no reason that a nation would suffer from not having an arms manufacturing industry if the weapons and spare parts keep coming in.

Obviously homegrown weapons have the advantage of lower cost, and immediate availability. Perhaps in the future international arms dealers will play a larger role in large wars between states. The only example that can support your assertion is the Vietnamese relying on foreign small arms, but in large scale wars it will be rather difficult to guarantee a stable supply of aircraft carriers, bunker busters, and stealth bombers from some foreign dealer.
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NRE
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Map Tsar and Southern Gentleman

OOC: Here we go again.... :(
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Patrua
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TheNeoRomanEmpire
Sep 15 2005, 04:10 PM
OOC: Here we go again.... :(

OOC.
No we won't. I stick with my point and will judge accordingly as regional judge. We're just running around in circles. I could answer points made here with remarks made before. I'm not going to restart this whole discussion and repeat myself over and over. To me this is the end of it.
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NRE
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Map Tsar and Southern Gentleman

OOC: :D :lol: Excellent, then please let us resume the peace conference and put X&C suggestion to action, that is unless one else has a better treaty they would like to submit.
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Patrua
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The South African War will get a definite resting place with its title antefix Archive as at least this part of its epic history has come to a close.
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