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Homosexuality
Topic Started: Mar 24 2005, 11:20 AM (1,765 Views)
Rhadamanthus
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Deniz85
Apr 8 2005, 06:30 PM
I don't buy in the argument of right-wingers: it is solely based on an old religious feeling that homosexuality is a sin. It is not: it has been proven by scientists.

Hi!

I have an issue with this statement. Sin is a religious concept. In fact it is a concept that varies somewhat in different religions/denominations. How can science prove that anything is not a sin?
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Patrua
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The Resplendent Dawn
Apr 8 2005, 07:54 PM
Hi!

I have an issue with this statement. Sin is a religious concept. In fact it is a concept that varies somewhat in different religions/denominations. How can science prove that anything is not a sin?

How can you prove that God says it's a sin? Or that he even exists? He/She/It surely never appeared to me. Nor did he tell me that it would be a sin to be gay or lesbian.
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Rhadamanthus
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I am not saying anything religious can be proved, Patrua. At least I was trying to say quite the opposite, that it doesn't make sense to look at purely religious concepts using the axioms of science.

Edit: Addition:

In order to prove or disprove something being a sin, science would have to define and establish the existence of sin.
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New Harumf
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OK, I am really getting sick and tired of this whole argument. Here, in my family, nationally, internationally. Why is this such a big deal? Why does everyone care what men do with their penises (penii??)? No one ever bitches and moans about lesbians, ony gay men.

Don't you teenagers have anything better to think about besides where you can and can't put your cocks? What about cars; beer; pimples; hair care products? You guys right now are hormonal monsters, and have just been turned into the most sexual animals ever to exist on the planet, and you are worried about sin?

Go out and let your juices flow, and don't worry if this action will make you straight, or that action will make you gay. Its just sex. Being gay has little to do with sex, or sinning. What are you all afraid of?? Are you remembering those pre-pubesent urges to look at other boys, or those experiments you did in the barn, or under the porch? Get over it, they won't damn you to hell.

So, quit worrying about gay this and gay that, go chase Mary Jane Rottencrotch and try to finger her through her pretty pink panties! Leave me alone, and quit being so concerned about my welfare and soul. I don't want, or need your help.
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Rhadamanthus
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New Harumf, please clarify whom you are speaking to. My last few comments are not intended to be about what is a sin and what is ok, or what anybody can or is or shouldn't be doing. My only purpose was to comment on the nature of science and religion, and that the science as well as each individual religion work from different premises.
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Great New France
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New Harumf
Apr 9 2005, 04:38 PM
OK, I am really getting sick and tired of this whole argument. Here, in my family, nationally, internationally. Why is this such a big deal? Why does everyone care what men do with their penises (penii??)? No one ever bitches and moans about lesbians, ony gay men.

Don't you teenagers have anything better to think about besides where you can and can't put your cocks? What about cars; beer; pimples; hair care products? You guys right now are hormonal monsters, and have just been turned into the most sexual animals ever to exist on the planet, and you are worried about sin?

Go out and let your juices flow, and don't worry if this action will make you straight, or that action will make you gay. Its just sex. Being gay has little to do with sex, or sinning. What are you all afraid of?? Are you remembering those pre-pubesent urges to look at other boys, or those experiments you did in the barn, or under the porch? Get over it, they won't damn you to hell.

So, quit worrying about gay this and gay that, go chase Mary Jane Rottencrotch and try to finger her through her pretty pink panties! Leave me alone, and quit being so concerned about my welfare and soul. I don't want, or need your help.

:D

Well said, New Harumf. You basically appealed quite well to what I was thinking of, but in a more straight-forward way, of course.
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New Harumf
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The Resplendent Dawn
Apr 9 2005, 04:41 PM
New Harumf, please clarify whom you are speaking to. My last few comments are not intended to be about what is a sin and what is ok, or what anybody can or is or shouldn't be doing. My only purpose was to comment on the nature of science and religion, and that the science as well as each individual religion work from different premises.

The "science" of sin?? The "science" of morality?? Doesn't science require facts, unfiltered by religion or superstition? Come on, don't try to use science to justify your impure thoughts, unless you want to admit that the science of biology has your hormones brewing in every different direction, and that as a teen you will look at a bare nipple in a gym just as quickly as you will look at a hard dick in a shower. You are obsessed with sex. You cannot go five seconds without thinking about sex (that's true to the age of 45, I think). Your mission in life is to satisfy those sexual urges, and that it the ONLY reason you think about homosexuality - it is another possible outlet for your sex.

It's not sin. It's sex. Purely biological. Purely hormonal. Get over it, play with a buddy.
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Rhadamanthus
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New Harumf
Apr 9 2005, 09:40 PM
The Resplendent Dawn
Apr 9 2005, 04:41 PM
New Harumf, please clarify whom you are speaking to.  My last few comments are not intended to be about what is a sin and what is ok, or what anybody can or is or shouldn't be doing.  My only purpose was to comment on the nature of science and religion, and that the science as well as each individual religion work from different premises.

The "science" of sin?? The "science" of morality?? Doesn't science require facts, unfiltered by religion or superstition? Come on, don't try to use science to justify your impure thoughts, unless you want to admit that the science of biology has your hormones brewing in every different direction, and that as a teen you will look at a bare nipple in a gym just as quickly as you will look at a hard dick in a shower. You are obsessed with sex. You cannot go five seconds without thinking about sex (that's true to the age of 45, I think). Your mission in life is to satisfy those sexual urges, and that it the ONLY reason you think about homosexuality - it is another possible outlet for your sex.

It's not sin. It's sex. Purely biological. Purely hormonal. Get over it, play with a buddy.

I must not be expressing my thoughts clearly, because nobody seems to understand what I am saying. Let me try to clarify this step by step:


1. Another poster made the statement that science had proved sex was not a sin.
2. I dislike that statement? Why? Because science has nothing to do with sin.
3. I have been trying to say repeatedly that science cannot make statements about sin because sin DOES NOT EXIST in science. It ONLY exists in religion.
4. I have not made any statement about what is or is not a sin, that I can remember.
5. I have not made any statement about my sexuality or anybody else's, that I can remember.
6. My only purpose was to point out that science cannot make statements about sin because sin is purely a religious concept. Only religion can make a statement about a purely religious concept.
7. Responses seem to think that I am trying to "prove" sin using science. I am doing just the opposite. I am mainting that science and sin have nothing to do with eachother.
8. I hope I have finally clarified myself. I am aware that internet forums are conducive to misunderstandings.


Am I making any sense yet whatsoever?
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New Harumf
Unregistered

The Resplendent Dawn
Apr 9 2005, 08:48 PM
New Harumf
Apr 9 2005, 09:40 PM
The Resplendent Dawn
Apr 9 2005, 04:41 PM
New Harumf, please clarify whom you are speaking to.  My last few comments are not intended to be about what is a sin and what is ok, or what anybody can or is or shouldn't be doing.  My only purpose was to comment on the nature of science and religion, and that the science as well as each individual religion work from different premises.

The "science" of sin?? The "science" of morality?? Doesn't science require facts, unfiltered by religion or superstition? Come on, don't try to use science to justify your impure thoughts, unless you want to admit that the science of biology has your hormones brewing in every different direction, and that as a teen you will look at a bare nipple in a gym just as quickly as you will look at a hard dick in a shower. You are obsessed with sex. You cannot go five seconds without thinking about sex (that's true to the age of 45, I think). Your mission in life is to satisfy those sexual urges, and that it the ONLY reason you think about homosexuality - it is another possible outlet for your sex.

It's not sin. It's sex. Purely biological. Purely hormonal. Get over it, play with a buddy.

I must not be expressing my thoughts clearly, because nobody seems to understand what I am saying. Let me try to clarify this step by step:


1. Another poster made the statement that science had proved sex was not a sin.
2. I dislike that statement? Why? Because science has nothing to do with sin.
3. I have been trying to say repeatedly that science cannot make statements about sin because sin DOES NOT EXIST in science. It ONLY exists in religion.
4. I have not made any statement about what is or is not a sin, that I can remember.
5. I have not made any statement about my sexuality or anybody else's, that I can remember.
6. My only purpose was to point out that science cannot make statements about sin because sin is purely a religious concept. Only religion can make a statement about a purely religious concept.
7. Responses seem to think that I am trying to "prove" sin using science. I am doing just the opposite. I am mainting that science and sin have nothing to do with eachother.
8. I hope I have finally clarified myself. I am aware that internet forums are conducive to misunderstandings.


Am I making any sense yet whatsoever?

Yes. And I think, in my rather crude, torrian way, I am agreeing with you. Let science do science, let religion do religion.
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Rhadamanthus
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Great! Glad we agree on that!
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Great New France
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The Resplendent Dawn
Apr 9 2005, 09:03 PM
Great! Glad we agree on that!

Hey, guys, I was trying to say the same thing: you got me wrong Resplendent Dawn.
I know SCIENCE has nothing to do with SIN. SIN is a RELIGIOUS concept. The fact that I support SCIENCE is because it is a process where one reasons, REASON is the most important thing in SCIENCE. Furthermore, SCIENCE is based on concrete evidence, things that really exist in nature, as some say it, "out there", and that is why spiritualism has nothing to do with SCIENCE.
I hope that I have clarified my precedent thread now, guys.
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Catholic Europe
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New Harumf
Apr 9 2005, 04:38 PM
OK, I am really getting sick and tired of this whole argument.  Here, in my family, nationally, internationally.  Why is this such a big deal?  Why does everyone care what men do with their penises (penii??)?  No one ever bitches and moans about lesbians, ony gay men.

Don't you teenagers have anything better to think about besides where you can and can't put your cocks?  What about cars; beer; pimples; hair care products?  You guys right now are hormonal monsters, and have just been turned into the most sexual animals ever to exist on the planet, and you are worried about sin?

Go out and let your juices flow, and don't worry if this action will make you straight, or that action will make you gay.  Its just sex.  Being gay has little to do with sex, or sinning.  What are you all afraid of??  Are you remembering those pre-pubesent urges to look at other boys, or those experiments you did in the barn, or under the porch?  Get over it, they won't damn you to hell.

OMG!

That post just represents all the worst sins in one! LOL!

But seriously, it does represent the attitude of the West and, even if we weren't talking about homosexuality, it would still be wrong to say and follow what was posted. Call me a prude all you want, you can have as much sex as you want as long as it is with one person (that being a someone of the opposite sex).

The Resplendent Dawn
Apr 9 2005, 09:03 PM
Great!  Glad we agree on that!

LOL, I don't. It is the duty of religion, IMO, to regulate and monitor science (as I hate science, really).
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Patrua
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Dictatorship n Strife
Apr 8 2005, 06:53 AM
stop using big words without explaining what you mean. It doesn't make you look good!

:( You could at least have left me the impression that I had a discussion among peers.
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Catholic Europe
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Patrua
Apr 10 2005, 07:19 AM
:( You could at least have left me the impression that I had a discussion among peers.

Huh....I think you realise yourself that some of us are not as educated as you and are not as old as you.
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New Harumf
Unregistered

Catholic Europe
Apr 10 2005, 06:21 AM
New Harumf
Apr 9 2005, 04:38 PM
OK, I am really getting sick and tired of this whole argument.  Here, in my family, nationally, internationally.  Why is this such a big deal?  Why does everyone care what men do with their penises (penii??)?  No one ever bitches and moans about lesbians, ony gay men.

Don't you teenagers have anything better to think about besides where you can and can't put your cocks?  What about cars; beer; pimples; hair care products?  You guys right now are hormonal monsters, and have just been turned into the most sexual animals ever to exist on the planet, and you are worried about sin?

Go out and let your juices flow, and don't worry if this action will make you straight, or that action will make you gay.  Its just sex.  Being gay has little to do with sex, or sinning.  What are you all afraid of??  Are you remembering those pre-pubesent urges to look at other boys, or those experiments you did in the barn, or under the porch?  Get over it, they won't damn you to hell.

OMG!

That post just represents all the worst sins in one! LOL!

But seriously, it does represent the attitude of the West and, even if we weren't talking about homosexuality, it would still be wrong to say and follow what was posted. Call me a prude all you want, you can have as much sex as you want as long as it is with one person (that being a someone of the opposite sex).

CE, you really are getting on my last gay nerves!! If you wish to hold yourself up to some high moral mirror, do so, but many, many people realise that sex is pleasure and enjoyment, and partake frequently.

What bugs me the most about your attitude is you are essencially saying that my very existence is a sin. This has not seriously been said by anyone about anyone in 300 years - not since the Dutch tried to rationalise slavery.

I exist, it bugs you, so label it sin.

Sorry, can't take you seriously anymore on this topic.
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Rhadamanthus
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Deniz85
Apr 10 2005, 05:58 AM
The Resplendent Dawn
Apr 9 2005, 09:03 PM
Great!  Glad we agree on that!

Hey, guys, I was trying to say the same thing: you got me wrong Resplendent Dawn.
I know SCIENCE has nothing to do with SIN. SIN is a RELIGIOUS concept. The fact that I support SCIENCE is because it is a process where one reasons, REASON is the most important thing in SCIENCE. Furthermore, SCIENCE is based on concrete evidence, things that really exist in nature, as some say it, "out there", and that is why spiritualism has nothing to do with SCIENCE.
I hope that I have clarified my precedent thread now, guys.

Deniz, sorry I misunderstood you! Looks like this whole thing was just a lot of confusion.
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Catholic Europe
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New Harumf
Apr 10 2005, 10:33 AM
CE, you really are getting on my last gay nerves!! If you wish to hold yourself up to some high moral mirror, do so, but many, many people realise that sex is pleasure and enjoyment, and partake frequently.

What bugs me the most about your attitude is you are essencially saying that my very existence is a sin. This has not seriously been said by anyone about anyone in 300 years - not since the Dutch tried to rationalise slavery.

I exist, it bugs you, so label it sin.

Sorry, can't take you seriously anymore on this topic.

I think you are just jumping to conclusions and just looking for an opportunity to label me as homophobic prude (which you've already done virtually).

That really is not true, but I cannot accept what you posted as being free from sin, because it's totally not. Doesn't mean I don't partake in it, no one is perfect, but doesn't mean that we should approve of it.

Hedonism is a very bad thing.
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Patrua
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Catholic Europe
Apr 10 2005, 12:18 PM
Hedonism is a very bad thing.

Intolerance too... <_<
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Nag Ehgoeg
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The Devil's Advocate

Patrua
Apr 10 2005, 03:49 PM
Catholic Europe
Apr 10 2005, 12:18 PM
Hedonism is a very bad thing.

Intolerance too... <_<

Red Vs Blue
 
Oh man owned! You got F***ING OWNED! I SAW IT!


I'm sorry but you're saying that you're not homophobic?

I respect that you have a different view than mine, but just as I accept my view is "sinful", and yes even amoral, your view is homophobic.
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New Harumf
Unregistered

Dictatorship n Strife
Apr 10 2005, 03:58 PM
Patrua
Apr 10 2005, 03:49 PM
Catholic Europe
Apr 10 2005, 12:18 PM
Hedonism is a very bad thing.

Intolerance too... <_<

Red Vs Blue
 
Oh man owned! You got F***ING OWNED! I SAW IT!


I'm sorry but you're saying that you're not homophobic?

I respect that you have a different view than mine, but just as I accept my view is "sinful", and yes even amoral, your view is homophobic.

Also, his view is hypocritical.

However, from a purely Catholic frame, his view is correct. My sins, CE, are no different than your sins. You are a fornicator, I am a c**k sucker. But for the grace of God, we will be fornicating and sucking in Hell.
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Paradise
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Resident bureaucrat

Hell must not be a bad place, it must be pretty hot!
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Catholic Europe
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Patrua
Apr 10 2005, 03:49 PM
Catholic Europe
Apr 10 2005, 12:18 PM
Hedonism is a very bad thing.

Intolerance too... <_<

How is that intolerance?

Dictatorship n Strife
Apr 10 2005, 03:58 PM
I'm sorry but you're saying that you're not homophobic?

I respect that you have a different view than mine, but just as I accept my view is "sinful", and yes even amoral, your view is homophobic.

Yes, I'm saying that I'm not homophobic. one of my very good friends is gay (David Lowdell, and I suspect hom to be a transvestite) also, Chris Whitmore, who is a good friend of mine is gay.

But, and I'm not going to lie, homosexuality is not to be desired and shouldn't be promoted.

New Harumf
Apr 10 2005, 04:38 PM
Also, his view is hypocritical.

However, from a purely Catholic frame, his view is correct.  My sins, CE, are no different than your sins.  You are a fornicator, I am a c**k sucker.  But for the grace of God, we will be fornicating and sucking in Hell.

How is my view hypocritical?

Also, God willing and with the help and prayers of the Blessed Mother, all the saints and living people, I will only expereince purgatory before I am granted admission into heaven. Hell, I pray, is not something I will experience but rather the Blessed Mother, Queen of Heaven, will guide me to her Divine Son, Lord Jesus Christ.
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Wadj
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The Very Model of a Modern Major General
All right. I thought that I should insert my two cents into this discussion. These are my own personal beliefs, and I am not trying to get anybody else to believe them.

I don't think that things that do not harm anyone should be considered sins. God has too much to worry about in the world to sit up in Heaven listing all the impure thoughts we have, or what we have been doing in bed. Its not like He's sitting up there going: "And, on December 15th, at 3:52pm, Central Standard Time, Amal von Humperdinck Hernandez of 347 Hortensia lane, Anamoose North Dakota, had impure thoughts about the boy next door." God has to worry about famines and death and war and poverty and hunger and genocide and oppression and natural disasters. He has no time to worry about who's putting what where. That's what the gossip pages in the newspaper are for. God surely must be on a higher plane of existance than the gossip columnists.
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Catholic Europe
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Spammer
God can take as much information about as minute a detail as he wants. He is not limited to worrying about the big things because the small things count as well.
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New Harumf
Unregistered

Catholic Europe
Apr 10 2005, 05:46 PM
Patrua
Apr 10 2005, 03:49 PM
Catholic Europe
Apr 10 2005, 12:18 PM
Hedonism is a very bad thing.

Intolerance too... <_<

How is that intolerance?
Dictatorship n Strife
Apr 10 2005, 03:58 PM
I'm sorry but you're saying that you're not homophobic?

I respect that you have a different view than mine, but just as I accept my view is "sinful", and yes even amoral, your view is homophobic.

Yes, I'm saying that I'm not homophobic. one of my very good friends is gay (David Lowdell, and I suspect hom to be a transvestite) also, Chris Whitmore, who is a good friend of mine is gay.

But, and I'm not going to lie, homosexuality is not to be desired and shouldn't be promoted.

New Harumf
Apr 10 2005, 04:38 PM
Also, his view is hypocritical.

However, from a purely Catholic frame, his view is correct.  My sins, CE, are no different than your sins.  You are a fornicator, I am a c**k sucker.  But for the grace of God, we will be fornicating and sucking in Hell.

How is my view hypocritical?

Also, God willing and with the help and prayers of the Blessed Mother, all the saints and living people, I will only expereince purgatory before I am granted admission into heaven. Hell, I pray, is not something I will experience but rather the Blessed Mother, Queen of Heaven, will guide me to her Divine Son, Lord Jesus Christ.


There you go again. Homosexuality is not to be desired and shouldn't be promoted. Don't you see, you blind ass, God does not condemn homosexuality - doesn't even mention it in the Bible, so "being homosexual" is not sinful, just as "being heterosexual" does not put you inn a state of grace. The book mentions "sleeping with another man as if a woman." That is buggery - that isn't even c**k sucking.

I will allow you to call buggery a sin, just as you call fornication a sin, and adultry a sin. But to condemn people just for "being"? No, sorry, you can't do that.

Catholic Europe
Apr 10 2005, 05:46 PM
Yes, I'm saying that I'm not homophobic. one of my very good friends is gay (David Lowdell, and I suspect hom to be a transvestite) also, Chris Whitmore, who is a good friend of mine is gay.


Also, I hope the "gayness" of these two individuals is common knowledge by everyone, because if you are "outing" them here in this forum, well, someone should take a cricket bat to your head.

Have you asked them how they feel??
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