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Eldar codex Qs; A few questions...
Topic Started: 16 Jul 2015, 12:00 PM (840 Views)
spesselves

Hey guys, just getting back into 40k after a nearly two decade absence and to ease my way in my buddies and I are starting off with HoR Kill Team rules as we build up our armies. I'm going with space elves since I always wanted to play them as a kid. I have a few rules questions about the codex though.

1) I was initially directed to the old HoR codices on the blogspot site, but then just recently made aware that there are updated ones being maintained on a FB group? I really liked the old Eldar codex, and when I got my hands on the new one (v. 7 I think) I noticed, amongst other things Wraithguard had been removed, I presume for balancing. Bummer because the list I'd been planning included a few Wraithguard. Where are the decisions being discussed/made, on the FB group? I assume I could just agree with my friends to play the older codex, but I'd like to know what's going on in the game meta and discussion too.

2) I noticed the Windriders gained the ability to take scatter lasers 1 in 3, probably an update since the new codex dropped and arguably better rules than the stock GW ones which let you take as many scatter lasers as you can afford. However in both the older codex I have and the newer one from the FB group I noticed that Windrider Guardians have a 5+ armor save. Now maybe this is a mistake because standard guardians have this save, but don't windriders get their armored steed bonus from being on a jetbike? Or is this some rules change for Kill Team because of OP mobility and jinking and such? (Again I know I could house rules this stuff but I'm interested in the community/meta)

Thanks for your time.

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ColdBlood
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Eldar are ridiculously overpowered right now, comically so. Wraithguard especially, because they don't have distort weapons anymore, but DESTROYER weapons - you know, the things we usually only had on titans. Worse, they have them as flamer templates, which is ridiculous in Kill Team, especially for how cheap they come.

Also, a lot of things we can usually spam, has been nerfed heavily for KT purposes, and for good reason. Some things are just beyond what kill team should feature, and considering how strong some things are, it is quite sensible to limit the spam of certain things, or outright disallow it.
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spesselves

Okay cool. I definitely agree as far as the scatter lasers and honestly believe that should be the rule in straight up 40k as well. Maybe limiting the Wraithguard to a one-of and no d-scythe would be okay. I mean dudes in my group have d weapons on some of their guys...so I can't see it being a problem.

Any idea about the armor save though? Just another attempt at balancing?
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Aphyria
Corporal
The 5+ save is most likely a typo (eldar jetbike confers 3+ armour, as per the wargear rules in the codex).

The 1 in 3 special weapons for jetbikers is a keepsake from the 6e codex I believe, in order to try and keep it from overwhelming the game. Balance is probably the same reason for dropping the D-weapons (I will point out that the D-Scythe has a modified destroyer rule to compensate for the flamer template; it doesn't make it appropriate for KT still, but on tabletop its not entirely the death-trap its been made out to be).

I wouldn't be so quick to label Eldar completely overpowered, but scaling them down to KT level involves a few changes (as with a few of the armies).

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ColdBlood
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Aphyria
18 Jul 2015, 02:27 AM
Balance is probably the same reason for dropping the D-weapons (I will point out that the D-Scythe has a modified destroyer rule to compensate for the flamer template; it doesn't make it appropriate for KT still, but on tabletop its not entirely the death-trap its been made out to be).

I wouldn't be so quick to label Eldar completely overpowered, but scaling them down to KT level involves a few changes (as with a few of the armies).

66% chance of instantly killing anything you can possibly field in Kill Team, for 42 points, at Toughness 6 with a +3 save, is undeniably broken. You don't even need to hit, just place a template, and watch literally anything disappear.

In 40k, it's bad, but manageable for some armies. In kill team, it's pretty much not possible to reliably deal with something like that. The sheer flexibility they have is also completely over the top for a kill team model, since it can deal with anything, a feat pretty much no other model can boast. Tons of enemies camping cover? Flamer template. High toughness? Strength D. Armour...? Still Strength D. Vehicles and walkers? Oh right, still strength D.

There are 0 bad targets for these guys. They also insta-kill your models, with no "injury" rolls made, which makes them even worse to deal with. They suck out any kind of fun in the game, because it just becomes a frustrating game of "avoid the wraithguard at all costs", rather than an actual wargame.

I realize people want to bring the strongest units they have, but at some point, you need to think of whether or not your opponent will have fun playing against you.
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Nynnka

The improvised 7.1 rules seems very bland... a copy and paste, with a few price chances and the removal of WG.
no new items or wargear could be inspired by the new codex? :(

As for the WG debate it seems like people over estimate them... i used a single WG last game... it took out a single ork truck... which my firedragon could of done for cheaper, then died to a striking scorpion with a single bladestorm pistol shot.
didn't even make his points :)
ofcorse if someone takes loads of them its a different matter.
Maybe make a limitation of 2 WG and a max of one D-Scyth... /shrug

but everyone has had different gaming experiences.
just my thoughts :D

Happy gaming all :)
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Aphyria
Corporal
1W, T6 3+ will not save them generally. They are slow, flamer templates are fairly short (8" length or so) and are laughably easy to kite. The D-Scythes count as S4 for instant death purposes, so unless you're facing grots, it doesn't bypass injury rolls either.

They're also nicely expensive per model, and a team full of them can be tied down incredibly quickly - soak up one overwatch with a charge (throw away one model) then charge it with almost anything else and you can easily keep it from functioning for most of the game.
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SeerLord Lorthos

I agree that Wraithguard are being severely overstated. They have 12 inch ranged weapons like many Eldar. They are incredibly kite-able and die easily to everyone's favourite: plasma. One super strong shot is awesome, but is anyone actually going to be stupid enough to walk right in front of it? Cuz thats the only way its going to be useful. To make matters worse, they are non-learning for campaigns.
I have a serious question about Warlocks. How can we fix them? Right now they are damn near unusable. Their spells are self-targeting for the most part because that would transfer power to the rest of the unit in regular 40k, but in Kill Team the benefit of their buffs are lost as they are an incredibly killable model with low killing power. They either need to be fixed, or some sort of dumbed down Farseer needs to be available (like how SM gets a librarian - which is not a squad sergeant and thats all eldar get). The future predicting fantasy of Eldar is completely absent.
Edited by SeerLord Lorthos, 31 Jul 2015, 06:13 AM.
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DireAvenger20

Does anybody have the rules with for the updated codex? Cause I can't find them on the site and have been looking everywhere.
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Syrias
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Corporal
There are a ton of solutions available for balancing an army. Keep suggesting them! The more ideas you throw out, the greater a pool of collective resources we have to work with. And by "we," I mean not me. That team (or person) who makes the official decisions. They might not all think of them themselves, and they might like your idea and use it. Or tweak it. Or ignore it, whatever.

Also, as an IG player, I look upon your argument regarding Eldar power levels with a bitter scowl.
Now, for Kill Team purposes, remember that not-horde horde armies (which I, like, NEVER see) of Fire Warriors or Skitarii could spread out and laugh as they trash D flamer templates by sheer weight of rapid fire, thoroughly brutalizing a handful of T6 models. 20 Fire Warriors is a quite serious challenge to deal with. And why the hell should they even bother with camping in cover when there'a a D Template weapon? Screw survivability, just get as many shots in as possible.
Now, while I agree with your primary point, ColdBlood, I disagree with your assessment that they(I am only talking about the WG here) have no weaknesses; their weakness is strategic and not tactical. Although that changes significantly in the full-size game. I actually perceive them as MORE manageable in the HoR game.

Regardless, I just flat-out laugh at people who challenge me with Eldar. Maybe it'll be worth it when there's a codex worth playing. As it stands, I wouldn't waste my time on it. I might be at the extreme end of the spectrum, but I have nothing against the players--- I'm just not interested in overwhelmingly one-sided battles.

Food for thought, though-- bear in mind that on a 4' board, the effective threat area of a mobile unit (Move Shoot Run) with a flamer template is about 10%
Also, if a unit is non-learning, that just means you can spend it somewhere else to make another unit amazing. It's not like you lose the RP. What did you even NEED to upgrade on these things?
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asp

Yes, Wraithguards' weapons are cool, but the guys don't even have battle focus, meaning they move 6'' and that's it. The D-Scythe is shitload of points and has 8'' radius. Even for slow armies, it's not so hard to keep a little distance and shoot them from 24'' with no risk, or?
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Da Skyman
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nobody said you had to have an entire army of them. Like most things, I imagine that proper support is key in getting the most of them. D-scythe wraithguard need proper support in regular 40k too.
Similarly, this is Kill Team. D weapons aren't suited for this sort of team action work, so it is only natural that they would be a bit unwieldy in this setting.
Even if it wasn't a D weapon, an AP2 template weapon, in Kill Team is insanely good and needs to come with some drawbacks.

I play Tau, not Eldar, so keep that in mind.
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asp

Da Skyman
17 Sep 2015, 05:14 PM
nobody said you had to have an entire army of them. Like most things, I imagine that proper support is key in getting the most of them. D-scythe wraithguard need proper support in regular 40k too.
Similarly, this is Kill Team. D weapons aren't suited for this sort of team action work, so it is only natural that they would be a bit unwieldy in this setting.
Even if it wasn't a D weapon, an AP2 template weapon, in Kill Team is insanely good and needs to come with some drawbacks.

I play Tau, not Eldar, so keep that in mind.
Ok, I agree, that they're very cool in defence missions, where you stay in one place and shoot everything that comes close, especially with some long-distance support. Though there are always things that are very cool in certain situations, like t6 chaos bikers with mark of Nurgle, if you are not prepaired and all your team has s4 weapons that wound them on 6+. When playing Eldar, I prefer either speedy or shooty minions, and find wraithguards useful only in specific situations, meaning they are more then balanced.
Edited by asp, 17 Sep 2015, 05:46 PM.
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Xabre

So, um... Where IS the most recent Eldar list? I'm fairly new to these boards, but the only place I know to grab the lists is from the HoR site, which is no longer updated.
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Peregrim

I don't know how "official" these are, but these updated rules were mentioned somewhere: http://elavion.jigsy.com/40k
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