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| Deathwatch Balance | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: 19 Sep 2014, 11:45 PM (1,029 Views) | |
| Angrypuffin | 19 Sep 2014, 11:45 PM Post #1 |
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Hi, folks, and thanks for putting together this wonderful alternate way of playing 40k! I love the idea of playing Deathwatch. The individualization of the marines, the different chapters working together- it's very cool, and not something that you can easily do in normal 40k. So I tried to make a list with the Team List, but I came away with the impression that things are generally a fair bit overcosted, relative to Codex: Space Marines. In this post, I'll compare prices and explain why I think that. -Deathwatch Marine- These are a parallel to the C:SM Tactical Marine. The Deathwatch Marine is 19 points against the Tactical Marine's 14 points. That's 35% more expensive. In compensation, you get a Stalker Boltgun and True Grit. True Grit is basically just a straight +1 attack. The Stalker Boltgun is a little more complicated, giving a +6" range and 1 better AP to normal boltgun fire, or allowing the use of a slightly worse Scout Sniper Rifle (AP 5 isn't much better than AP 6; the loss of 6" is more important). From the Space Marine Scout we see that the upgrade from a Boltgun to a Sniper Rifle is worth 1 point. (That's generally considered a worthwhile upgrade.) The Kraken bolts are a straight upgrade- the 30" range is probably more significant in extending double-shot range from 12" to 15" than the actual maximum range, which will be hard to get in terrain. The upgrade from AP 5 to AP 4 is nice, if middling. I think either 1 or 2 points per model would be a reasonable price to pay for the Kraken bolts. How much is an extra attack worth? Well, consider that Space Wolf Grey Hunters can pay 2 points to get an extra attack by getting a close combat weapon. However, consider also that competitive players recommend that you generally not pay for this upgrade. I think this would be an interesting option at 1 point per model. So, to recap: Marine: 14 ppm Sniper Rifle: 1 ppm Kraken bolts: 1-2 ppm Extra Attack: 1-2 ppm Total: 17-19 ppm So we can see that the current price of 19 ppm would be on the high side of the range, even if the upgrades were individually selectable. But when you have to buy them all together on every model, they're worth somewhat less. And when they don't synergize well, they're worth somewhat less. For instance: if you use the Kraken bolts in your shooting phase, you can't charge in your Assault phase and use that extra attack. Because the upgrades are present in every model and don't synergize, a fair price would be 17 ppm. However, there's one more problem: Codex Space Marines get a Chapter Tactics for free. If they're Raven Guard, their Tactical Marines can Scout. If they're Imperial Fists, they have Bolter Drill, et cetera. This costs an extra 2 ppm for the Deathwatch marine. Now, because these can be optimally selected in a Deathwatch kill-team (only the Flamer guy is a Salamander, etc.), they should be a little more expensive. I would value C:SM Chapter Tactics at 1 ppm as a result, compared to 2 ppm for individual models. So in conclusion (for this unit), I think at 16 ppm Deathwatch Marines would be good, and at 17 ppm they would be okay. -Special Ammo- In Codex: Space Marines, Sternguard get Special Ammunition included in their profile. How much is this worth? Sternguard are a tactical marine with +1 Attack, +1 Leadership, and Special Ammunition. To find out how much +1 attack and +1 Leadership are worth, we can compare a vanilla Assault Marine to a Vanguard Vet with jump pack: 17 vs 22, 5 points. However, let's say that because Sternguard really don't want to be in close combat, they're given a slight discount, and only "pay" 4 points for that close combat ability. A Sternguard costs 22 points, 8 more than a Tactical Marine. 4 points of that is for close combat. So the other 4 points is for the specialist ammunition. I think that in light of this, Deathwatch specialist ammunition should be discounted pretty heavily. What costs the Sternguard 4 points costs the Deathwatch marine I would recommend lowering the 2-point ammunitions (edit: excepting Dragonfire ammo, which is already good) to 1 point, and the 5-point ammunitions to 2 points. That way Deathwatch still pays more (6 points to Sternguard's 4), but it's no longer -Chapter Tactics- I think the Chapter Tactics are a great part of the Deathwatch list, but they might need some rebalancing. Some are great as they are- Salamanders for flamer marines, White Scars for bikers, Raven Guard for assault marines. Some seem situational: I could see myself trying out an Iron Hands or Ultramarines Team Leader. Some seem weak to me- I couldn't ever see myself paying 2 points for: Black Templars (5+ on Deny the Witch and better running isn't worth 2 points) Blood Angels (only 1 in 6 chance of enhancing assault, wouldn't want to deep strike with Built Up Area) Dark Angels (Morale boosts aren't worth 2 points) Space Wolves (Others are unlikely to charge you with True Grit, 5 points is way too much for frost blades) The fact is, I couldn't see myself even paying 1 point for these Chapter Tactics, unless I knew what my opponent was playing and I could tailor my list. (I might take Space Wolves against Tyranid hordes.) -Conclusion- I don't have time at the moment to do recommendations for every part of the list- perhaps I'll be able to return to it later. I think I would go through much of the same process with many of the other characters. But if the core of the list is fixed, it'll at least be workable. I think with these changes, the core of the list would be solid and useable. Edited by Angrypuffin, 24 Sep 2014, 03:12 AM.
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| Nazdreg | 23 Sep 2014, 01:53 PM Post #2 |
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Hey, I do agree with you to a certain extent. I think the special ammo is guite expensive for being highly situational. However you cannot compare Kill Team with regular 40k so the seemingly small additions are quite worthwhile, because we don't have things like Wraithknights or 2++ rerollable rubbish or some uber-stuff like that. So the points costs should not be set in comparison with regular 40k models. The issue with complete packages, where you have to pay for things, you wouldn't necessarily always take is valid. However the ability still exists and can be put to use. For example I was a fan of the old IG-storm troopers. You paid a lot for getting a low S ap3 gun, an ap3 pistol and an extra ccw and all grenades on a guardsmen. Now with the scions I actually miss the ccw as a defensive measure. Your SW-example: First, if the opponent doesn't want to charge you just because of True Grit, that proves True Grit to be quite valuable. If a SW guy prevents the opponent completely from charging, why not take him? He will babysit your guys so they (and he) can use the improved bolters. I would gladly use this guy with no upgrades if he can perform this task adequately. @IF-tactics Yep, tank hunters is not particularly useful, although there are vehicles in some lists. However bolter drill with a heavy bolter guy could be quite useful and if you happen to encounter a war walker or sentinel, he could make it count with being better than preferred enemy. |
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| vncnt | 23 Sep 2014, 05:47 PM Post #3 |
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Corporal
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Remember though, you get a Rending 30" range Sniper on top of everything extra they get. Though I wouldn't mind them dropping to 18 ppm largely so that with Chapter Tactics it makes them come out to an even 20 points for number crunching. |
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| Angrypuffin | 24 Sep 2014, 03:08 AM Post #4 |
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Hi, Nazdreg, Regarding special ammo, I think the lack of Wraithknights et cetera actually makes Hellfire ammo less valuable, not more. (I think there's still plenty of 3+ ammo for Vengeance rounds, though.) Regarding Space Wolves Chapter Tactics, I think the general idea is that if you (the owner) can control when a bonus is used, then you should pay full price for it. But if your enemy can control when a bonus is used, it's worth considerably less. So Rage (+1 attack on charge) is generally worth more than Counter-Attack (+1 attack when enemy charges you). Because they can play around it. It might force what is otherwise suboptimal play, and that is the true value of the ability: the greater of "what it's worth when you get to use it" or "what it's worth when the enemy has to play around it". Your point is taken on the Imperial Fists. You're right that they would be the go-to user of a Heavy Bolter (scary!), a good candidate for Terminators, and maybe even for a combi-weapon if you take one. So they're actually fine, if situational. Hi, vncnt, Regrettably, the sniper rounds are not rending- if they were, they'd be very nice against vehicles! But I did include +1 point for the sniper rounds in my original estimate for the cost for the marine. With that, on to the other units! I'm still not handling the Leader units right now. Previously we compared a Deathwatch Marine to a Tactical Marine and decided they should be 16-17 points instead of 19 points. Next up is Deathwatch Assault Marines, at 14 points. They don't have True Grit or a Stalker Boltgun, so they're exactly the same as Assault Space Marines. They even cost the same, except that they don't come with Chapter Tactics. I actually think this is right and proper: paying 2 points for Raven Guard Jump Infantry is pretty worthwhile, as is 2 points for White Scars on bikers. Space Marines can only have one kind of Chapter Tactics, and I think the flexibility is worth about 2 points. Next up, the Special units. The Deathwatch Veteran is basically a Deathwatch Marine with the Veteran statline (+1A, +1Ld). It's 4 points more than a Deathwatch Marine, which we already established is standard. This just needs to be brought down to the price of the new Deathwatch Marine + 4, which would be 20 or 21 points. The Deathwatch Terminator comes in at 40 points, on par with Space Marines. Again, you lose chapter tactics but can buy another, and I think that's fair. The Deathwatch Keeper is also 40 points, and it's the analogue of the Honor Guard for the Space Marines. Honor Guard are only 25 points, though, so let's do the math and see what makes the Keeper worth more. It has True Grit and the Stalker Boltgun, like the Deathwatch Marine. Its Power Glaive is basically a Power Axe, but it's master-crafted and (more importantly) hits on initative for the first round, which is great. Finally, it's got Preferred Enemy for Xenos. I personally don't like Preferred Enemy for balance reasons: it makes the unit stronger or weaker based on which list your enemy picks. So the price you usually pay is somewhere in the middle. So if it applies to your enemy then the unit is undercosted, and if it doesn't apply to your enemy the unit is overcosted. Neither are good for balance, and therefore (in my mind) for good fun. But let's work with it anyway. I would estimate that the Glaive hitting at initiative on turn 1 is worth about 5 points. That puts it at 20 points, right between a normal Power Axe and a Power Fist. Master-Crafted would probably be worth another 5 points (it might be worth 10 on a multiwound model, but multiwound models will be more likely to get to use it.) That leaves us with Preferred Enemy. Against armies where it applies, it's probably worth a further 5 points. Against armies where it doesn't, it's definitely worth 0 points. So the final tally: Honor Guard: 25 ppm True Grit, Stalker Boltgun: 3 ppm Power Glaive: 10 ppm Preferred Enemy: 5 ppm So the Deathwatch Keeper should properly cost 38 points against non-Xenos, and 43 points against Xenos. I know it's gotta have one points cost, but please don't make me say it. In either case, it's reasonably close to its current cost. Part of me still says "I'd never use it", which might hint at some discounting needed, but I don't have a big problem with it for now. The Deathwatch Apothecary is 35 points to the Space Marine's 35 points. It has True Grit, but no Stalker Boltgun without buying it. So it's basically like the Assault Marine: the same price for no Chapter Tactics. It's comparable. I love the Deathwatch Kill-Marine. It's a great flexible unit. It's either a plain veteran, or a veteran scout. And then it's got this nifty little rule giving it Preferred Enemy against one enemy unit. Awesome! Since it's just one model, not the entire army (like with the Keeper) I think 2 points over the Veteran cost is appropriate. Again, with the re-baselining of the Marine cost, I think this should cost 22 or 23 points. The Deathwatch Black Shield is... an interesting model. It's a Deathwatch Veteran with Feel No Pain and Furious Charge, plus 2 extra rules: rerolling charge distance against Leader or Special models, and being able to Look Out Sir to any friendly model with 6". Happily, we do have a comparison for Feel No Pain and Furious Charge: Blood Angels Death Company. Death Company are +1 WS and +1A relative to a regular marine, have Feel No Pain, Furious Charge, AND Relentless, but can't take objectives. Let's say the +1 WS and inability to take objectives cancel out. +1A is +2 points. Relentless would normally be quite good, except they can't take heavy weapons, only trade in their bolt pistols for boltguns. In that case, I would rate it an even trade, enabled by Relentless, 0 points. So that leaves 4 points for Feel No Pain and Furious Charge. How much are the other rules worth? Rerolling charge against Leader or Special models is middling: I'd say 2 points. Being able to Look Out Sir to any model in 6" is fluffy, but frankly I'm not seeing the value. This marine is likely more expensive than whatever it's trying to protect. But it's still owner's choice, so let's call it 1 point. So the final price should be: Deathwatch Veteran: 20-21 ppm Furious Charge and Feel No Pain: 4 ppm Quirky Rules: 3 ppm So I think the final price should be 27-28 ppm. And that concludes this round of suggestions. I don't know if I'll review the Leader models, because a) you're only getting one of them, so price isn't quite as important, and b) some of them have area-effect abilities, like the Chaplain; and I don't feel like I have enough experience to evaluate how much those are worth yet. Thanks for reading and commenting! |
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| Nazdreg | 29 Sep 2014, 03:35 PM Post #5 |
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hey angrypuffin, I did not refer to special ammo alone with my comment about the comparison of Kill Team and regular 40k. I agree with your example, however I justed wanted to mention, we have different unit compositions so the priorities are different and small improvements have a greater impact in general. @bonus (SW-example) The thing is, imho actions by both players are always needed to result in a bonus being used. So in all cases players try to play for (or around) certain effects. Of course the opponent tries to play around power weapons or ap3 weaponry by avoiding their threat range with his 3+ save models and you try to get counter attack to work with offensive play in waves so you can assault a position and then repel the counter assault quite handily. What you mean I think is a defensive measure, which might be less valuable than an offensive one (a 3+ armour is unnecessary if you are never shot at, because you don't determine when you are being shot. ;)). But you also don't determine, whom you can charge, shoot etc. because you need your opponent to let you do so. So I am not yet sold on that one. I think playtesting will be a good idea to sort out, which bonuses are likely to occur (and thus are more valuable) and which ones aren't. Your calculation looks quite sound though, good suggestions. |
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| archonkain | 21 Dec 2015, 08:18 AM Post #6 |
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I certainly agree that Deathwatch is currently overpriced, and the breakdown of comparisons to other units makes sense for suggesting points adjustments. However, in my opinion, chapter tactics are over priced at 2 pts, especially with the current costing of the model. I do see how certain tactics are better than others, so what about instead of 2pts per tactic, split them up like is done in the CSM and IG (sorry Astra Militarum) lists where the various tactics are worth different points costs? I really don't see any reason a death watch marine should NOT have a chapter tactic from a fluff side, just like all marines in a standard space marine list have tactics even if it is realistically useless to that marine. So what about: Dropping the cost of the over costed marines (tac, kill, blackshield, keeper (I think they are)) by 4 points, requiring every model to buy a chapter tactic except the blackshield for fluff reasons and adjust the tactics to cost: Black Templars: 1pt - this one is solid if you want to get into CC or face psyker heavy lists. Blood Angels: 0pt - +1S only on the charge really isn't worth paying for when the entire BA list gets it free. Dark Angels: 0pt - I don't think the LD is worth paying extra Imperial Fists: 1pt - this is solid, especially with the better bolters Iron Hands: 1pt - this makes your marines extra hard to remove, and with so few models and rout tests, that really matters Raven Guard: 1pt - I don't think the jump pack rerolls are worth it, but the turn one extra cover saves really can recover from a stolen initiative. Salamanders: 1pt - too good on flamers, which got upgraded with burning in HoR Space Wolves: 0pt - Counter Attack being off your decision to counter charge can be useful, and the ability to get even stronger power weapons, even at a cost, can be valuable, but you pay for them individually. Ultramarines: 1pt - you pay more for the range upgrade already, and choosing to fail is strong, but not uber strong. White Scars: 1pt - this is all around good for bikers. So basically, any model that gets true grit and the specialty ammo should cost 3 pts more than its equivalent in the SM dex, and not all chapter tactics are equal, so lets not price them as if they were. Thoughts? |
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