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Titanic amounts of cheese; Part Two of a series of anti-tacticas
Topic Started: 29 Oct 2011, 03:48 PM (646 Views)
Liquid-Joshi
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Alrighty, time for part two from the "Too many of 'em!" thread. This one focusses on the Army of Titan, Grey Knights. I'm also relying on you, the AB community, to add stuff to this. Right, into the tactica...

Know Your Enemy
Grey Knights. The name currently instils fear and dread into the opponents of such an army. They are currently a first Tier army in the meta game, and are hated by almost every army. So, it's about time someone wrote something down about killing the pimped up tin cans.

Grey Knights are an elite army; almost every character has a 200+ points cost, and those that don't are either Inquisitors or Crowe. Most troops are upwards of 20 points per model. The downside is that they are incredibly good at what they do, but they are incredibly expensive. What does that mean? Small model counts, and your opponent is going to feel it every time one of his precious Tin men bites the dust.

How to Fight Them
So, how are we going to counter this? Well, think Terminator heavy armies, and you wouldn't be far off. In theory, Grey Knights work exactly in the same way as a terminator heavy army, only with less resistance. So, with that in mind...

Plasma. As much as you can. Failing that, drown them in firepower. Force so many saves that they can't help but fail some. Most Grey Knights are just fancy Power armoured marines with force weapons. Close combat is a no no, especially in the case of hordes vs purifiers.
Having said that though the common, or garden variety, Grey Knight only dishes out one attack, so a horde against them in combat could be a good idea.

Playing Guard? Well good news, we have potentially the best weapons to fight Grey Knights with. Ordnance such as Basilisks and Armoured Fighting Vehicles such as the Leman Russ Battle Tank are deadly to foot slogging Grey Knights. The amount of Guardsmen you can bring can force a deadly amount of saves, especially with orders. Kasrkin make PAGKs weep. The Demolisher will visit insta-death goodness on everything (save Draigo - his Paladins will die though). Note that only things with a NF Sword AND Iron Halo will have a 3++ save, and only in combat. It should be clear by now that staying out of combat with most things is a priority, unless you are 'Nids or Orks - we'll get to them in a minute.

Things To Be Wary Of
Psykers: Everyone is a psyker, but don't jump to the crucible of Malediction just yet - only the Justicar in a squad will take a psychic test,
for everything from Hammerhand to popping your Trygon with that lucky 6 to wound. They have mastery levels, which detail how many psychic powers a unit can cast a turn. Purifiers Cleansing Flame will halve the number of guys you have in a unit before blows are struck.

Wargear: EVERYONE IS A PSYKER. That means everyone has a force weapon. But they all do different things as well as being a force weapon. For example, the Nemesis Force Halberd will give them +2 initiative in combat. The Force Sword gives +1 to an invulnerable save in combat. Falchions give +1 attack.

Assassins: Yup, these bad boys (and girls) are back with a vengeance this time. The Vindicare assassin can pop any vehicle pretty easily, though I'm not sure where he stands vs The (now redundant, I guess) Monolith. He's not a slouch in combat either.

Combat Central Armies
This section is only for armies that depend on Close Combat, such as Orks or Tyrranids. This is NOT for marines with power weapons - they WILL be carrying halberds, and they WILL slice you into swiss cheese before you even get near them. Your Vanguard Veterans WILL die horribly.

Now then, the basic rule of thumb is Hordes will beat everything except Terminators and Purifiers. Purifiers Cleansing Flame and Terminators 2+ save will, more often than not, win out against your horde. In combat with Grey Knights, you need to make the force weapons not matter, so Invulnerable saves are useful, or a massive amount of attacks. Purifiers should be engaged with firepower at range, whereas your anti tank weapons should go against Terminators. Remember Multi wound models are not a good idea, as Force Weapons can cause instant death.

Noteworthy: Eldar
Ok, a short note about the Eldar vs Grey Knights here, I believe Farseers can take a rune that disrupts psychic powers, working in the same way as they Tyrranid Shadow in the Warp ability. This messes with Grey Knight players massively, and is as much a psychological weapon as it is a good way of shutting down psychic powers and Force Weapons

Anyway, I hope this guide helps you defeat the Army of Titan, please feel free to add any comments, advice and thoughts about this tactica and about fighting Grey Knights.
Edited by Liquid-Joshi, 29 Oct 2011, 08:39 PM.
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Tychonaut
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Well well well.. It was only a matter of time.
Round two in 'Way of the Beard': A treatise on how to defeat the Shooty Tin Men.

From an Eldar Standpoint:

Fight Fire with Fire.
Terminators, like any 2+ save equipped units will hate Fire Dragons with a passion.
This counts double for Paladins, as it kills them outright, and robs them of that precious Apothecary nonsense.
Dreadknigits are also susceptable to this withering firepower, the only limitation on them is range..

Wraithguard get an honorary mention here, as being T6 tends to put a dent in their ranged advantage, and slaying outright on a 6 to wound is a big plus Vs. generic HQ units/Paladins. Only downside is they are a bit pricey.


Speaking of range.
Dark Reapers. These will wipe the floor with any unit in 3+ armour, like those annoying Purifiers/Purgation Squads.
Interceptor squads will also be a priority for these, so long as you don't ignore the Purifiers for long.

Rangers/Pathfinders also fit into this catagory, as most armored targets won't stray far from cover with a unit of these around.
I'm the sort that would use them for hunting down and killing Dreadknigits.


Weight of fire.
Dire Avengers. This humble name should make GK players take notice. Not only can they blitz him with firepower using the Bladestorm power, they can also rob your opponent of his valuable Force Weapon attacks with the Defend Exarch power, and the Shimmershield wargear gives the whole unit 5++ in combat. Bonus.

Another unit in this catagory is an Autarch on Jetbike, armed with Reaper Launcher and leading a unit of Guardian Jetbikes.
BS3 might be sniffed at by most, but not when they are Twin-Linked and have Jetbikes Mobility, they aren't.
3+ saves are also dead handy for surviving the return fire from whats left of your target, if they aren't still running away.


My Tanks Better Then Your.. Flying Land Raider?
Falcons. Arm these with an EldarMissileLauncher and Pulse Laser, you should have no trouble in shooting down any Stormravens.
Once this is taken care of, work on slowing down his other vehicle mounted units (Rhino mounted Purifiers, we're looking at you)

Wave Serpents are another useful unit to have around. Not only will they move your units around the table in double-quick time, but that Energy Field they have will shut down things like Multi-Meltas and Rending weapons too. Combine this with moving flat out and you have yourself a mobile piece of blocking terrain and a distraction rolled into one. Oh yeah, and you can fit them with a TL Eldar Missile Launcher, or TL Bright Lance for tank/Dreadknigit hunting.
If you get desperate, you can always Ram him to death.


If All Else Fails..
Outrun him. Eldar are one of the few armies gifted with such immense speed, use it. Star Engines are worth taking, as you can evaporate like Scotch Mist when he attempts to bring his combat prowess to bear. This will leave him off-balance, and hopefully exposed for your static units long ranged firepower.


So in short.
Slow him down, Disrupt him if you can, and Blow Smoking Holes in his prized units!
Edited by Tychonaut, 29 Oct 2011, 06:57 PM.
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☺Dave38x
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I play 40k maybe once or twice a year... for those of us who follow suite what does this mean:

liquidjoshi
 
They are currently a first Tier army in the meta game


And what are these tiers?
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Brambleten
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Im going to guess that its something to do with how often they are picked to go to tourneys or something along those lines. as new armies get released to be maxed out with cheesyness, the ones currently at the top get shunted down a notch and wouldnt be picked as much. probably not right, but thats how it seems to me.

as for how to beat them, put simply, in my experience, numbers. there are only so many of them on the board, and that number is usually much smaller than what you can put out, unless you are deathwing, so you can generally shoot them more. usually, 3+ saves give out eventually
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Liquid-Joshi
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The meta game is top level gaming. Some armies are seen as more competitive than others (competitive armies are armies are more powerful rules wise). You would see more players playing space Marines than Tau because Space Marines are seen to be more competitive.
Tiers are basic levels for defining competitive armies. Looking at the previous example, Space Marines are seen as Tier Pne, whereas Tau are seen as Tier Two.
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☺Dave38x
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Fair enough, I thought the Meta Game was the whole psychological thingy between you and your opponent? Like making remarks such as "Next turn my terminators can deepstrike" resulting in him thinking about nothing but said terminators, while you pretty much let him get defensive around where they might strike and kill in the gaps that have opened up?
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SirTainly
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From a DE viewpoint, if you face a GK army with 3 Rifleman dreads, and you are a Raider/Venom heavy list, you have to stay out of sight, and slowly snipe the dreads one at a time with Darklight weaponry (use all that you have). If you can't do this, because there's the wrong sort of terrain etc, go into reserve. You won't win but you may have troops left by turn five this way.* If you are playing the Duke, you can then DS your transports to get closer to the Dreads, which means only one round of shooting against you. Even if your transport is popped you should be able to tarpit the the dreads with Wyches with haywires for the rest of the game.


*My first thought was simply don't bother to deploy, and concede the game as twinlinked ACs will just scythe through DE transports and you'll be off by turn 3 but this seemed overly negative, albeit true. We (the clubs I frequent) never seem to have tall terrain and it's just a shooting gallery for the GK dreads.
Edited by SirTainly, 2 Nov 2011, 03:08 AM.
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Liquid-Joshi
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@Dave38X: Not sure, but that does sound familliar. I am prone to being mixed up about these things.

@SirTainly: Can't you take vectored engines to deepstrike raiders and ravagers? Against Psyfleman dreads I would turbo boost raiders and ravagers for the 3+ cover save, then hit them next turn. Strike from cover if you can, A Talos through a webway portal is also pretty good at bringing down artillery (which is the catagory I would put psyfleman Dreads in) hidden at the back.
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☺Dave38x
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psyfleman dreads? psy cannon, and leman russes on the other arm?
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Brambleten
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Dave38x
1 Nov 2011, 07:06 PM
psyfleman dreads? psy cannon, and leman russes on the other arm?
IIRC, psyfleman dreads are dreads with two twin AC with the psybolt ammo upgrade, making them str 8 rather than the str 7 they usually are
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Octavian Lars
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That was one of the main mistake of mat ward in the GK 'dex in my opinion (psy -BOLT rounds, for BOLTguns not auto guns)
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Liquid-Joshi
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Brambleten
1 Nov 2011, 08:18 PM
Dave38x
1 Nov 2011, 07:06 PM
psyfleman dreads? psy cannon, and leman russes on the other arm?
IIRC, psyfleman dreads are dreads with two twin AC with the psybolt ammo upgrade, making them str 8 rather than the str 7 they usually are
Yup, nailed it Brambleten.

Having looked through the codex properly now, I don't think it deserves as much hate as it gets. Yes, Bloodtide and Draigo are pretty stupid, but the most part is OK. Some things need fixing though Psybolt ammo (+1 strength on assault and auto cannons, heavy bolters, bolt pistols, stormbolters, etc) on Dreadnoughts is ridiculously low.

Strength 8 autocannons? With re reolls to hit, and Psychic pilot pretty much for free? Other dreadnoughts sho8uld just go somewhere else and be a toaster.
Edited by Liquid-Joshi, 1 Nov 2011, 09:20 PM.
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SirTainly
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Liquid-Joshi
1 Nov 2011, 05:37 PM
@Dave38X: Not sure, but that does sound familliar. I am prone to being mixed up about these things.

@SirTainly: Can't you take vectored engines to deepstrike raiders and ravagers? Against Psyfleman dreads I would turbo boost raiders and ravagers for the 3+ cover save, then hit them next turn. Strike from cover if you can, A Talos through a webway portal is also pretty good at bringing down artillery (which is the catagory I would put psyfleman Dreads in) hidden at the back.
You can, but I've never seen anyone take them. Personally I hate using DS as you and up arriving piecemeal and are punished for it.

Not sure how going flat out helps as you can't fire, and you really want to stay at range from the GKs as Psycannons and stormbolters are less than your darklances. Unlessyou are thinking to tarpit the dreads with Haywires?

The problem with cover for DE is that it'a always too low, everyone makes it to hide a Rhino 51%, and that just covers a Raider's stand....more tall terrain please!

I don't play a WWP list so no idea how this would play out, although I'm thinking it's the way DE are being driven by the GKs and new Necrons (from the rules I've seen).
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Liquid-Joshi
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It's all about timing mate, though I would consider running a webway list and multiple Talos. Going flat out gives you the survivability you need, though hopping haywire wyches out of raiders isn't a bad idea.
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