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Suns of Nocturne; Catch-all topic for my Salamanders
Topic Started: 23 Jun 2011, 08:19 PM (899 Views)
Cothbarton
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Second Lieutenant
Step 1: A question.

I've not played much (read 'any') 40k yet so I could use a smidge of advice. My current draft of a 2k Salamanders list has two 10-man Tactical Squads and one 5-man Scout sniper squad. I could either fit in another Dreadnaught or another full 10-man squad. I think that the Troops would be better and more useful than the Dread.

I'm not really looking for a tourney grade list, or even very competative. I just want something viable on the table. Any recommendations by more seasoned folk?
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# El Diablo
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Warmaster Of Chaos
2000 points of marines and you've only got 3 troop choices?

Regardless of the size of game Tactical Marines are one of the best basic troop choices in the game, most players will normally try to get at least 2 Tactical Squads in the army for every 750ish points. In 2k i'd look at getting at least 4, though 3 10 man squads and the scouts will do at a pinch.

In games where you win by holding objectives, remember that only troops can do it. Some armies (Orks, Tyranids) can get more figures into one troop choice than some players get in an army. If you've got 30 Orks running at you and you want to stay on your objective, you need to make sure you've got a) troops to hold it and b) enough punch from that troop unit and its support to counter anything that might try to shift them.

In my own 2000 point marine lists it's very rare you see less than 4 full Tactical Squads.

Yes Space Marine armies can have all kinds of cool toys, but remember it's the humble Tactical Marine that will win you games.
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Cothbarton
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Updated army list of 2000 points

- - -

HQ

Vulkan He'stan

ELITES

Terminator Assault Squad
5 man
Hammers & Shields


Terminator Squad
5 man
Assault Cannon


Ironclad Dreadnaught
Drop Pod w/ Locator Beacon
Heavy Flamer
Heavy Flamer


TROOPS

3x Tactical Squad
10 man
Multi-melta
Flamer
Rhino


Scout Squad
5 man
Sniper Rifles


FAST ATTACK

Bike Squad
5 man
2 meltaguns


HEAVY SUPPORT

Devastators
5 man
4x Heavy Bolters


Devastators
5 man
4x Multimelta
Rhino


- - -

(In theory) the Ironclad drops into the middle of the enemy deployment zone, pulls both squads of Terminators in on top of it to cause chaos, while the Tactical Squads in the Rhinos (thanks Tycho) head into the mid-field. I could give the melta Devs a Razorback, but the Rhino gives me 5 points for 2x Heavy Flamers on the Dread.
Edited by Cothbarton, 28 Jun 2011, 06:48 PM.
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Tychonaut
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With this you have 240 points left to spend, so theres plenty of room for manouver.
Are you looking at an all infantry list, or had you considered going for some Armored elements to go with it?

I say this because you could pick up a couple Rhino or Drop Pods, and some Razorbacks for the Devastators
(Devs don't actually mount up, it's an excuse to squeeze in an extra mobile heavy weapon with an AV)

If you do go for a mounted Devastator squad, you could replace the Lascannons with Multimelta, you'll get better synergy with Vulcan that way.

If push comes to shove, an Ironclad Dread with Heavy Flamer, Meltagun and pair of Hunter Killers in a Drop Pod will scare your opponents to death.
(AV13 monster in his deployment zone on your turn 1)
Edited by Tychonaut, 24 Jun 2011, 08:32 PM.
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Cothbarton
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I tend to shy away from tanks. Such a large point sink, so easily destroyed.
The lascannons are in there for the reach, and because I'm going to end up buying two boxes of Devastators anyhow to get my 4 Heavy Bolters.
It's really a question of more anti-infantry or more anti-tank, I think.
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Tychonaut
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I only mentioned vehicles because you seem not to have any so far.
Deciding not to take any transport for fear of 1 shot killing it is cramping your options.

Fast mobile armies like Craftworld Eldar are going to run rings around you, even worse then
they do against 'regular' Marine armies.

Your right about vehicles like Land Raiders being a point-sink, but Rhino are like 35 points, so are Drop Pods.
You can't tell me 35 points is too much of a point-sink?
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RAAM13
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yer you need some transports, a drop pod with a homing beacon is a good start, and a few rhinos wouldn't go a miss
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Cothbarton
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Here's where my lack of 40k experience is going to shine through, but.... What are the Rhinos for?

Yes, obviously for transporting squads around. But from what little I've seen of how people play, they just drive forwards six inches, pile out of the transport, and then they dont get used any further. Which seems a bit... well, silly.
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Tychonaut
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Rhino have -lots- of uses, and only the first one is obvious.

1. It's a Transport.
This means it carries units into battle, safe from anti-infantry firepower within it's armored flanks.

2. It's an Anvil.
Vehicles block lines of sight, so use it to cut down your opponents fields of fire. Advancing behind the solid wall
offered by a vehicle is a standard tactic, knowing full well the opposition can't shoot through it,.

3. It's a Tarpit.
Enemies will have to move around it to charge your infantry behind, including the 1" exclusion zone that all models exert.
Park your Rhino side on between you and that unit you really don't want charging your men,
forcing him to go around it may be the difference of being caught in assault or not.

4. It's a Tank.
Alright, so I lied about only one of these being obvious.. Rhino are Tanks, meaning they are allowed to both Tank Shock and Ram.
A Valid tactic to shift an enemy from an objective is to Disembark your Tactical squad, declare a Tank Shock on the objective-holding
unit and then swarm in when they break and run.

5. It's a Fire Support Platform.
While mounted up, you are allowed to fire 2 of the squads weapons from the fire port on the roof hatch.
Imagine the scene of your opponent moving vehicle close to your Rhino, not knowing the anti-tank weapons your squads are carrying.
Hilarity ensues when you pop the hatch, smile, and shoot his tank to bits with sustained Melta fire.

6. It's a pain in your opponents butt.
If you manage to break one of your opponents units, keeping a unit within 6" means they can't rally. Use a Rhino to escort them
from the table while your scoring unit is busy sitting on the objective, Yelling 'It's MY hill'
Combine this with the near-legendary 'Rhino Factor' A Rhino is traditionally seen as a stubborn old mule, shrugging off hits that would
kill bigger armored units.

Those are just a few things that I can think of, i'm sure theres more out there.

As mentioned above, give 2 of your Tactical Squads a Rhino each, and the third squad a Drop Pod with Locator Beacon.
Your Terminators will be able to Deep Strike on the Pods location without scatter, bringing them down where you might
need them most, without risk of scattering into terrain/enemy units.

Having done this, you should still have the points to pick up a pair of Razorback with Twin-linked Assault Cannon Turrets for the Devastators.
Deployed next to them, the vehicle is then free to drive off looking for targets to shoot at.
(This last part is a shameless move to squeeze an extra pair of Assault Cannons into your army, as they sting, a lot)
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Cothbarton
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Army list edited and updated.
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Tychonaut
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That looks far more awesome. Drop-Dread is something nobody wants to fight against, especially if it's used as a beach head for Terminators to follow up with, very nasty combo.

Dev Rhino is good for 1st turn mobility/land grab them into cover, then disembark and act as mobile cover shield
(Parked between you and the thing most likely to kill this squad)

Tactical Squads with attached Rhinos are made of win, as they have 100% flexibility. Good choice.

All in all I reckon you've made the right call, will be good to see this up and running-with-scissors soon ;)
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Cothbarton
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Given the excellent new releases in FW dreadnaughts, I was thinking of taking the 5 bikes and two Dev squads out, to free up points for two additional Ironclads in Pods. Taking a Master of the Forge allows me to use Dreads as a Heavy choice. Or is getting rid of the Devastators losing a lot of firepower?
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Tychonaut
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it's giving up a lot of firepower, seeing as it takes 5 Lascannon shots to silence a Dev squad, but only one to kill a Dread..
Plus your making your kill point quota higher by spending your points on 4 units instead of 3
I'd stick with the list as it is now, as it's going to hammer lesser opponents into the ground, kicking and screaming!



If you decide to make the army larger at a later date, then you can shake up the list with another couple of Drop-Dreads and a Master of the Forge with Conversion Beamer. (removing the Heavy Bolter Devs to clear a HS slot)
I'd also go with another squad of Tactical Marines in Drop Pod to increase the number of pods in the army.
(More Pods means more Pods arrive turn 1)

To get all 3 Ironclads to arrive on schedule, you need 5 Pod equipped units in the army. so thats 3 Ironclads and 2 Tac Squads.

But back to the point in question: Stick with the list you have now, and think about more Dreads in a bigger list.
Edited by Tychonaut, 16 Jul 2011, 09:54 PM.
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Cothbarton
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I was considering using some sort of... dragon-riding-Space Marine for counts as Landspeeder. Any suggestions which model would work well for the beast? So far I've got the High/Dark Elf Dragons from WHFB as possibilites.
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riseofthemagi
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My main concern here would be that your marine-riding-dragon would be awful in close combat, which doesn't seem right somehow... Keen to see some of these marines built/painted though!
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Gerner
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Cothbarton, you could maybe make it as count as Kor'sarro Khan with Moondraken or a venerable Dreadnought with twin-linked heavy flamer and heavy flamer (and maybe in a droppod) conversion, it would give you a bigger base than the typical 25mm and make it lot better in close combat. The downside is that it can't move as fast.
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Cothbarton
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Yeah, in the end I've scrapped the idea for the counts-as Land Speeders. Looks very cool, but all sorts of other issues, cost and size being the big ones. They may end up at some point as sort of... display pieces. Or Dreadnaught variants! I like that idea! Thanks.
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riseofthemagi
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There were rules for marines on carnadons and the like in a chapter approved article quite a few years ago, so if it was a friendly game I guess you'd have no trouble with these, no idea whether there's an archive somewhere with them in.
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Cothbarton
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Cothbarton
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Question that I don't know the answer to, hence it's a question.

Plasma pistols are AP2, my Marines are 3+ armor save. Does that mean if they roll 1s To-Hit, they take an automatic wound?
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