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Anti-tactica.; Not a thread about how to play 40k badly.
Topic Started: 22 Feb 2010, 09:29 PM (973 Views)
de Selby
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Second Lieutenant
I posted in the thread 'How would you defeat nids?' and it got me thinking. I mostly play tyranids when I play at all so I first gave a list of things that have traditionally pre-occupied me as a tyranid player. I also then wrote a whole screed about fighting common tyranid monstrous creatures but I'll leave that where it is for now.

Most tactics threads devolve into discussions about which are the most powerful units to take in your army, as if the outcome of the game was decided in the purchasing phase (it isn't... always...). I though another approach would be if everyone could talk about what they, as a player of army X, tend to worry about most when they are playing. What units and tactics are the most serious threat to your army? Tell us, and when the international confederation of bunkerites faces that army on the tabletop they can turn your insider knowledge to advantage!

Note that this does require you put your loyalty to the bunker above your loyalty to your army. To show willing, here is the list of things that I as a tyranid player worry about on the tabletop.



Synapse (or the lack of it). Always bear in mind that tyranid hordes may fall part if you concentrate on killing the more fragile synapse elements.

Cover. Few of the new nids can take anything like assault grenades, and if you strike first their lack of armour saves hurts.

Strength 8. Lots of mid range beasts in particular are now vulnerable to instant kill. Warriors in particular fear battlecannons at range and power fists in CC. Remember these models are terminator-expensive.

Vehicles (still). The new anti armour options are a boon but mechanised armies can still push us around.

Small nids are afraid of flamers, obviously. Remember that many (termagants and their variants particularly) aren't actually any good at combat, and they (and any MC sent in to support them) suffer horribly from No Retreat wounds.

Many big nids (tyrants, fexes) are so slow that they can be avoided: this is what makes the zippy trygon so attractive. But even a trygon can be taken down with anti-tank weapons, and it can be tarpitted too. Damage limitation is the name of the game there. And instakill the Doom of Malatai first chance you get, for goodness sake.





Please post what army you play and what weaknesses you feel your army suffers from...

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hiveminion
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Second Lieutenant
Great idea for a thread.

With my Mech Marines I've always feared the big guns the Guard and Tau can muster. Artillery especially as it just punches through my Rhinos and you can't hide from them. Mid-strength multiple shot weapons as well, autocannons and multilasers put out enough shots to make cover saves redundant.

I usually don't like getting first turn either. I won't know where my opponent will deploy, if I reserve anything it won't come as a surprise, and my opponent can set up in the best possible way to get good lanes of fire on my approaching forces once he knows where I'm starting out.

Also, if it's an objective mission, Outflankers, Deep Strikers or, again, artillery, as they can easily wipe out my combat squads guarding my home objective! Loads of times my opponents devoted these units to killing my Vindicator, Land Raider or Thunderfire Cannon while they could've gone for those squishy squads which would've hurt my battle plans much more.
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Brambleten
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The Red Hood
I play marines, and generally, these are the things that i really dont like:

1. Stealers. I am [Not on the floor please] scared of multiple mass hoards of stealers, each with broodlord. how i combat them? now they've been degraded a bit (or not allowed as many upgrades), sternguard are pretty effective, with either AP4 rounds or AP5 no cover being rather nice. however, nids in general require a redeemer. end of.

2. Zoanthropes. they were evil last edition, they dont seem much nicer this edition, as it seems that a lot of nid players are looking to them to have quick anti tank, rather than having a lumbering fex waddle across the battlefield.

3. being outnumbered by a lot. marines are tough. but in 1000 points, if you bring a smeg load of guardsmen with a couple of sentinels with lass cannons to take out any dreads or preds, you will outnumber us massively. with orders, you should whittle us down. yes we might kill some of you in combat, but if you have enough power weapons and things in there, we die as well. it just depends on how elite and army the marine player takes. you take deathwing/wolf wing, you're going to be outnumbered. you go tactical squad heavy, you might draw level in numbers.

4. large templates with high strength/low AP. you drop a battle cannon shell on marines, they will die. accurate artillery will kill us in our ever so small numbers. it may look stupid on occasions, but spread your tactical marines in a line. that way they can only get 3/4 men, meaning you have more bolters to fire back with.


after that i cant think at the moment, but there are more :)
i'll think of some for tau as well, i get my [arse] kicked regularly when i use them.
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☺Dave38x
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DubDubDubDubDub
Armoured Battlegroup

As someone who plays stackloads of tanks very little infantry (two squads), my first few games taught me that marines are easy to slaughter. My next few games taught me that on a small close in battlefield an elite marine army can absolutely annihilate vehicles. So im generally scared of anything with a jump pack strapped to its back. Vehicles i just tend to take impacts on the chin from and blow back. Terminators worry me sometimes, but thats why i take demolishers...

and then theres that pesky FW lord of tzeentch that killed 1250 points of tanks in 5 turns, even if i did get it down from 10 to 1 wound.
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Roesor
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My Templar nearly got mauled by Tau yesterday, I have one 25 man fearless squad (master of sanctitiy) and a 15 squad with Techmarine in a Crusader and a venerable dreadnought, the crusader blew up in the first turn, the Dread was immobilised first turn. And my large squad was ripped apart by the firepower, but once I reached combat I annhilated them. This is because 20 kroot cannot kill 5 Templar on a charge.
He proceeded then to charge me with various units, but, had they moved away and taken themselves out of combat range or into cover, they would have killed my units with shooting. Why can people not realise that you don't charge with Tau? Ever. My master of Sanctity, on one wound, killed the Tau crisis suited commander and his five man bodyguard by sweeping advancing them.
As to Tyranid, I am yet to fight any 'stealers, but a Sizable squad of Templar/Marine can take on an insane amount of gaunts, esepcially if you can combat them with a Dreadnought. But when I've gone up against anything big in Tryanid lists than the Templar lack of firepower before hand and their fearlessnes in combat is their downfall, charge Templar with something huge like a Tyrant or somesuch and it is very unlikely that the Templar will win the combat, and therefore take more wounds and be whittled down until they are gone. If in synapse range however a large group of gaunts can hold Templar in more or less draw combat forever. Remember also that Templar have 'Blessed Hull' so Lance attacks from 'thropes will be largely uneffective.
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IronSoul
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Hey guys. Old New guy hear.

As a tyranid player, my fear has gone from verry little to quite a bit.

For starters, my carnifexes now have a 3+ armor save, which makes them giant targets that can actually die with a good volley. Tanks now feel a lot more threatened by them because they are less than ideal as infantry killers. A russ squadron can take a brood of three down by back peddaling and shelling them and maybe popping the las cannons. but the really unsettling thing is their ability to shoot at the squads of whatever coming at them in addition to the carnifexes that somehow make it across the table.

Hive Tyrants are far more effective now but are still monstrous creatures and therefore big targets. the ability to take an armored shell makes them a little more comfortable but they still don't have an invulnerable save.

The swarmlord may seem scary but he only has a 3+ save. two volleys of missiles, maybe a 'bring it down' if you're fealing saucy and he faceplants.

genestealers have become the new... genestelers. but they have also become bolter fodder. just be sure you are just slightly out of reach of an outflank attack and a volley will put them in the dirt.

Warriors. They die absurdly fast for 3 wound models. A sternguard squad will make a brood of warriors their bitches. the volleys go something like this. Kraken bolts. Rapid fire Kraken bolts. combi meltas. just watch out for the brood that falls out of the sky with an alpha. but they still are melta fodder.

Trygons, though intimidating are only a diversionary tactic. the big scary snake monster coming out of the ground will only become a threat the turn AFTER it surfaces. Swarm it with guardsmen to distract it and all of a sudden you have denied it two of its favorite things, a charge, and space for things to come out of the tunnel.

Thats all I have for now.
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☺Dave38x
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Interesting IronSoul, can you not upgrade fexes to a 2+ save any more?

and Roesor - why dont you charge with tau? there have been several times a strategic assault with a squad of fire warriors has gained me victory against eldar and dark eldar. When there are only 3 Dire Avengers left a squad of 12 fire warriors can and has killed them.
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Roesor
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Ah...that is because I meant to put 'Don't charge marines/templar with Tau', Tau can certainly combat other races, but I'd steer them away from combatting all varients of marines and sisters of battle or orks etc...
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☺Easy E
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I play Orks and Armored Company.

AC:
I fear anything that can move fast and isn't insta-killed by a battle cannon. Flyrants, winged DP's, big squads of jump packers, etc.

I mostly considered how to get the most bang for each pie-plate.

Orks:
Heavy bolters, lots and lots of Heavy Bolters. I also struggle against a lot of armor.

I consider how to maximize cover saves all the time when playing this army.

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IronSoul
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No, sir, Dave. Carnifexes have lost that option for a 2+ armor save. So has the Hive Tyrant. There is only one thing in the entire army that has a two up save, the Tyrranofex.

Although scary, they are hopeless against jump troops. A power fist (or Claw) will put the hurt to him, as he is only toughness 6. an ideal tactic to taking down these 250-280 point mostrosities is a librarian with a jump pack an the might of the ancients power. Oooorrr, take a rune priest with 'Jaws'.

On that note, jaws of the world wolf will obliterate any non Tyrant monstrous creature. don't think its useless against them, you just have a better chance making that tervigon, or that carnifex, or that tyrranofex, or that entire brood of carnifexes go away. why? all initiative 1; there fore giving them a 2/3 chance of going away.

Edit: The Hive tyrant has the option to have a 2+ armor save for 40 points. still no invulnerable.
Edited by IronSoul, 25 Feb 2010, 09:03 PM.
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Brambleten
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The Red Hood
IronSoul
25 Feb 2010, 12:52 AM
Trygons, though intimidating are only a diversionary tactic. the big scary snake monster coming out of the ground will only become a threat the turn AFTER it surfaces. Swarm it with guardsmen to distract it and all of a sudden you have denied it two of its favorite things, a charge, and space for things to come out of the tunnel.
thats a good point. they may have an assault 12 weapon and are mean beasties, but if they pop up behind a devastator squad and a tactical squad, they are going to lose wounds (1 to a bolt pistol from a sgt as well as a couple from various heavy weapons). unless you are unlucky on the charge with the trygon, you should be able to survive charging a unit of 10 tactical marines by virtue of them having to get 6s to wound you, as long as your marine buddies dont have a power fist.
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IronSoul
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The point is, when possible, deny it the charge.

Also, the bio-electric pulse isn't that scary. its a death spitter that shoots more. not to mention that it has BS 3. unless its shooting at guardsmen or orks (or heaven forbid, other tyranids) it will likely only get through two to three wounds. don't worry about it. All it is is another target that happens to have six wounds. kill it and move on with your life.

Mawlocs are a different story. As it will most likely target your heavy weapons squads (devastators, dark reapers, etc.), your best bet is to put something that interupts deepstrikers next to them. I do not know about anything beyond Marines and nids, and as far as Ive seen, there isn't much. I know very little about eldar besides that they cheat, so maybe there is something. Ive never fought a necron army but from what Ive heard the deceiver does some monkeying around with that stuff.

If you have nothing, put your heavy weapons next to impassable terrain or next to the board edge. force your opponent to take a risk before sending his Pacscnake to go om nom nom. Deployment is key with these buggers.
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Roesor
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Didn't bloody work with me O.o My blood angel devestator squad was in a corner and still got waped, however the shootingy eletricity thingy if I recall only killed two of five and it was just bad luck that their missles did bugger all.
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Brambleten
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playing against necrons with marines i'm not scared of a lot. only monoliths and C'tan vaguely scare me. but if they spent points on them, thats less warriors for me to kill to phase them out :)
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Roesor
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I wind the local necron player up something fierce with my 'Nightbringer the cross dresser of the c'tan ^_^'
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Davian thule
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:'( i play space marines and i fear 2 things the first is horde armies such as nids and orks my marines get slaughtered in combat. 1 squad of genestealers and a fex took out 1500 points of marines in 4 turns, these marines included 15 terminators a dread and a vindicator. i also hate high strength, low ap pie plates as they make mince meat out of all of my units including vehicles. the leman russ is the tank i hate the most due to the fact that if can move and shoot all weapons
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Roesor
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Bwhahaha, I'm rather hordeish AND marine. O.o 20 man squads babeh!
I don't really fear any army in particular, looking at 20 assault terminators I'll [Not on the floor please] myself like anyone, but that won't stop me charging the crap out of them. And I just love it when my foes spends lots of points on huge monstrous creatures, makes for a damn good fight and attract lots and lots of shootyness.
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☺Dave38x
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davian thule: used to be able to do that, can only move and shoot two weapons now due to the lowering of the watershed for defensive weaponry from str5 to str 3... im mean seriously, they expect vehicles to have lasguns on them???
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Gallows Bait
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Okay, my (limited) experience with Orks so far has really highlighted a couple of weaknesses, at least in the size and make up of the army I've fielded so far.

1. Armour - Orks don't have a lot of easily fielded anti-armour, high strength weapons, and those that they do have are quite short range. Heavy support is a slim section in the codex. I think the gretchin batteries are probably the way to go, but even then only really the looted wagon has a S9 option, and I don't have the skills to make one.

The rest of the Ork punch is S8 or S7, which is fine for most tasks, but face a Land Raider or Necron Monolith and you're in trouble.

The key seems to be getting the faster, more mobile units in place to hit hard and then keep out the way - Deffkoptas with Rokkits seem good so far. As with all things Orky numbers are important - volume of fire is needed to overcome the low accuracy.

2. Initiative - Orks are fairly low initiative, when they charge they really find themselves struggling to get the first blow unless they are calling a Waaagh, even then against Marines that won't work. So you need a lot of bodies to soak up the wounds that will be dealt your way in order to then punch back, especially with the 6+ armour saves. High impact units like Nobs fair much better but they're pricy. So I think the key is being flexible with your assaults, quite a fine balancing act when you factor in short range fire power and the risk of a counter-charge.

With both problems my views on the answers are the same - volume of troops and mobility. You're a horde army and you need to play to that - more massed fire, more massed charges in order to make up for the low quality. That to me makes the Orks feel a touch vulnerable to smaller, high armoured, elite forces, such as marines, but that I guess is where the skill and practice come in. :D

Certainly with my horde only at 750pts and my elite mobs such as the Nobs and Lootas only being 5 strong, I'm worried they'll not be effective enough, but I'd rather use small units and get the feel for them now, than just field a couple of units.
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Davian thule
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Dave38x; yes i know but they also have lumbering behemoth enabling them to move 6 inches and still fire all weapons
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