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female marines; fluff or just fun?
Topic Started: 4 Jan 2009, 07:16 PM (1,663 Views)
☺scrubout
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style without style
This is the source of my attraction to the universe of 40k.

Anything is possible if the players wish it to be. It's all up to your own judgment and personal enjoyment of the hobby.

This ambiguity gives players the power to control the game setting, their army background, etc. That doesn't mean I don't have the right to disagree with you or find your army tasteless...I just run a slightly different game then you do. :D


Take what you want, leave the rest.
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# Captain Wolverine
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Doctor Thunder
14 Jan 2009, 04:50 AM


Where do you think I got the idea from in the first place? Female Space Marines were one of the first blisters I purchased when I was a kid.

Posted Image
The things I have a big problem is, is not the idea but the excution, the Rogue traders female marines look female ish but yours to me honestly looking like Transexuals (nothing wrong with that) or Porn stars in power armour ( referring to your boob tutorial ). So my question is not fluff based but hobby based is there not a better way you could have displayed your idea
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☺Jasevx
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Nice article mate, and I forgot they actually had made female marines! You echo alot I get from the eavy Metal team I know, the games all about individual interpretation, and no boundaries should be set on your imagination.
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Penguin of Death
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For several thousand years millions of people have been arguing over the contradictions in their 'rule books' and fluff - be thankful the argument about female Marines is limited to a handful of Geeks with plastic measuring sticks
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Notice the openness of their language. Nothing is concrete until a player makes it so for themselves. Full of possibilities that don't limit the potential of the setting.

Never questioned this, not for a second. I wanted to state that before I crack on.

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I think I'm starting to understand, Uhlan. Allow me to correct the core misunderstanding you have about 40K.

40K doesn't have canon

Right, allow me to correct you.
40K has perhaps one of the most rigid canon in all science fiction, from television through to tabletop gaming, because its been going so long. Take Star Trek for example, which has been going on as long as 40k yet its canon as just as rigid. People can still choose to interpret it differently*, and you can't always expect people to like it when it veers too far away.

What Marc Gascoigne is saying is what I have already said which is 'do what you like, toy soldiers etc'. With regards to canon he explains that most of the fiction is written from a certain perspective so might not always be an accurate portrayal. Thats fine for things like Ciaphas Cain going toe to toe with a group of genestealers, but not for something which fundamentally changes whats been known about Marine gender since 1989 and please for the love of all thats holy don't make me dig up the quote..

That picture bowled me over a little it has to be said. But it all depends on when exactly they were released to be frank. If Games Workshop stuck to every model release, I'd have a killer Jokero army that would make a monkey out of anyone**. Thankfully they have tidied things up and when it came to space marines they made a choice - they've had twenty years to clear up the misunderstanding and they still haven't... surely knowing how many people out they would buy a few female marines they'd release them.
Its not a conspiracy, its not a hate campaign. Its the background, get used to it. If you want to do you own thing thats fine, but some people are always, ALWAYS going to raise an objection.

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Notice that even when he is talking about things that some players consider fairly indisputable, like the Black Templars lacking the belchers gland, his response is still "’sometimes’ or ‘it varies’ or ‘depends.’"

Yes but... thats kinda different isn't it? I mean its not one of the more vital glands to be fair. And all chapters have all the glands, in some form, working or not, because if the gland doesn't work they'd be futilely trying to repair it. So sometimes, it depends, and from chapter to chapter it varies.
The point is, its toy soldiers, it doesn't actually matter. If you play against someone he's not going to call you out for your black templar having a belchers gland even in Inquisitor. What he might do is say 'why do you have female space marines, that doesn't make sense' because twenty years of fluff says they don't exist.

Let me make that point clear again - GW are a progressive company, so why haven't they thrown at least one in. A passing line in a book? A bit of fluff in a codex? Hell even a picture with a asexual marine would do me. They haven't, because its not canon, just like you can't get male sisters of battle because thats not allowed because of the decree passive against Men under arms.

I'll post one more thought here. The missing Primarchs are often used as a way of getting in female space marines. They've been listed as fate unknown and all that business***. Now lets say for your female marines, you say that one of those Primarchs is female. Thats great, but the moment you do that your contradicting something by saying its known. Some people will let it fly, some wont. You can't expect people to just accept a contradiction to whats known and been stated a dozen times.

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when we treat 40K as a closed and defined universe we are perverting what it is into something that it is not.

But... thats the point of 40k. Look at the Imperium. Anyone who does something remotely unusual gets put to the sword just in case there a heretic! I'm not trying to close it down completely, but I am trying to give it boundaries because I could pull at least three races from rogue trader, make rules for it, whack it on the table and state 'Oh wait, I'm sorry, this is a godlike race where you weapons are meaningless and your army has been whipped from existance...'.

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So, as you can see, there is no need to berate players for treating the 40K universe as open and ill-defined. They are only doing what they are supposed to do.


And because I'm now rather tired of all this, I'd like to point out that I have never berated anyone and have only stated my own opinion on the subject. I've used the phrase 'In my Opinion' a dozen times each time I've posted because....

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Having rambled on about that though, and for the umpteenth time, I don't particularly care. Its a game about toy soldiers. Is it canon? as I've said before No it is not canon or you'd be buying female marines not making them****. Does it matter? No, have fun and enjoy yourself but bear in mind some one will always point at those models and say 'that can't work'.


Your entitled to make a female space marine army, just as I'm entitled to make an army of naked Monkeys with crystal guns that can make any gun from some twigs and a biro MacGyver style and have psychic powers on par with eldrad.
But on the other hand, if my opponent says 'that doesnt make sense any more, its pants on head retarded' hes completely entitled to do that. In a way were both right. In my opinion though in a contest between a codex marine army, my Jokereo, and your female marines, I think I'd be placed second as the most truthful to the 40k background. That's the way things are, thats life, etc.

I'm done with this now, its too much, its arguing over the internet about toy soldiers that don't exist in the first place. I don't actually care and never have. You want to do female marines, go ahead, but whenever someone shows his marines with breasts I'm still going to say WTF?

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The things I have a big problem is, is not the idea but the excution, the Rogue traders female marines look female ish but yours to me honestly looking like Transexuals (nothing wrong with that) or Porn stars in power armour ( referring to your boob tutorial ). So my question is not fluff based but hobby based is there not a better way you could have displayed your idea

I totally agree. I posted this on the previous page although I was a little nicer and kept that particular part of my opinion to myself.

* - A fan site I found recently listed details of a fan made Starfleet battleship and fan made starfleet marines, which seems to take the 'to seek out new life and civilizations, to boldly go where no man has gone before' and add the line "to butcher the alien mercilessly". Whilst there are conflicts in star trek, an army would change it too much for me and I wouldn't watch it - its why I found Deep Space Nine so interesting.
** - Shameless pun
*** - Depending, as I said, how you count legion
**** - with two exceptions it seems, but lets face it. GW could make a box set of plastic space marines with 3 months and they haven't. And won't.
 
Schoolcormorant
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This is the most retarded argument I've ever seen. And I had a history lesson in which we argued "Who would win, Adolf Hitler or Julius Caesar in a fight to the death?"

SC
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☺scrubout
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I'd pay for ringside seats.

Now I'm debating if I want to put that in my sig or not...oh how tempting it is. :D :D
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☺Dave38x
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I was about to unleash a massive reply, and thought: "you know? ive got better things to do. Like go buy my car, throw my snowboard in the back, meet up with some lovely canadian lasses and hit the slopes."

I honestly think that while its a concept i do not like, ill defend Doctor Thunder's right to try it out, hell, ill even give him advice on how to make them look better!

Bear in mind that this is a forum primarily devoted to the modelling and painting side of the hobby, not fluff bashing. In fact, this thread should probably be in the fluff section...

And Doctor Thunder: Can i see the breasted orks?
Edited by Dave38x, 14 Jan 2009, 05:31 PM.
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☺Deserter
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Moved to the Gaming, Fluff & Rules - Warhammer 40,000 section, as Dave38x mentioned, this is more suited to be here.

Dave - I think the miniatures that Doctor Thunder alluded to, the "Orks with breasts" are actually Orcs. In Blood Bowl the Orcs had female cheerleaders...

I'd just like to remind everyone to be civil, this is just a discussion, and I'm sure its one that could carry on for a good while longer without either side conceding :) So keep it nice, or bite your tongue!
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☺Jasevx
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To be fair lads Ulthan hasn't said Dr Thunder can't make female marines, hes just tried to justified the fluff that goes against it.

Both sides of the debate have valid points, and thats what GW thrives upon, and what makes the company so successful.

There is no wrong or right answer, just GW laughing in the background, waiting for everyone to agree and then bring out models that blow it out the water.
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Doctor Thunder
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Quote:
 
my question is not fluff based but hobby based is there not a better way you could have displayed your idea

A fair comment, deserving a fair answer.

Actually, the current conversions are something of a compromise. I won't lie and tell you that I am 100% pleased with them, but I have to work within the skills and budget I have.

My original attempt was to redesign their armor while avoiding using the sisters of battle models:
Posted Image
Posted Image
They had the benefit of being much slighter then normal marines, but they had the downside of being extremely different from regular male marines, and I caught a lot of flak for that. In fact, the mods of one marine-only-forum closed down some of my threads because they claimed that they weren't marines at all.

After that, I tried trimming down regular marine models. The problem is that it is a lot easier said then done. It is really hard to scrape and hack away at a marine model and end up with something that looks smooth instead of just something that looks hacked and cut with an exacto knife. (It made me realize why so many people do nurgle conversions. They are really easy to do and make look good)

After that, I tried sculpting my own from scratch on an armature, which, I discovered, is currently beyond my skill level by about a million percent.

After that, I looked into alternate models, and for a time I considered using these models with regular marine arms and shoulder pads:
Posted Image

The downside of these was that they are really expensive and, not being GW models, would invalidate me from taking them to tournaments, which was kind of a deal breaker for me, since I am a big tourney player.

So, the current design was made by using green stuff to modify the current marine models. It has the advantage of not causing confusion because they look like marines, but the disadvantage is that they have the wrong silhouette.

Now, if you ask me what I would actually like them to look like in a perfect world, it would be something closer to this:
Posted Image

The problem is that the only way to pull that off would be to hire a professional sculptor to sculpt several of them in different poses and then cast an army of them, which would cost about $3000 dollars. (Even I have my limits) If I can figure out a cost-effective way to acheive that, you better believe that I will. :)


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40K has perhaps one of the most rigid canon in all science fiction

Please tell me you are kidding, Uhlan.

Do you know how many things GW has changed/contradicted/forgotten/overwritten/left-unresolved over the years?
It's a terrible mish-mash of things lifted from Dune, Tolkien, Starship Troopers, Aliens, Anime, and 1984, duct-taped together by dozens of authors each doing their own thing without any kind of check-and-balance.

Gosh, there are so many examples I could use here. Let me give you a test with two simple questions to see how much you really know about the 40K background:
1) Is Roboute Guilliman a Space Marine Primarch or an Imperial Guard Commander?
2) Are the Ultramarines 1st or 2nd founding?

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If you want to do you own thing thats fine, but some people are always, ALWAYS going to raise an objection.

Well, that's like saying people are always going to cheat. Just because people do it doesn't make it right or appropriate.

If GW wants players to have fun and do their own thing, then how would you describe the behavior of players who go around trying to squelch the fun of others?

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just like you can't get male sisters of battle because that's not allowed because of the decree passive against Men under arms.

Sure you can. Just make an historical ecclesiarchy army that existed prior to the reign of blood.

It's really not that hard to justify, you just have to look for the possibilities instead of looking for pretend barriers. I don't think I'll ever understand why some people want to put 40K into a concrete box like that.

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A passing line in a book? A bit of fluff in a codex? Hell even a picture with a asexual marine would do me. They haven't

They don't need to. You read the quotes but you still haven't internalized what GW was trying to teach you. 40K fluff does NOT exist only so that players can model and field what is already described, but so that players can model and field what they imagine to exist.

If everyone just fielded what is described, this hobby would have died a long time ago. Who wants to play a game where everyone only follows the official paint schemes and conversions? That's just painting by numbers. A hobby full of carbon-copy armies.

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but whenever someone shows his marines with breasts I'm still going to say WTF?

But why? What's the purpose in that? What is your objective? Can't you just be happy for a fellow gamer enjoying his hobby?

In this case, I don't have to wonder what Games Workshop thinks about my female marines. As an Outrider and a Kommando, it has been my privilege to hang out with members of the Design Team on many occasions.

At the Los Angeles 2008 Games Day, where my female marines came in third overall at the Tournament, I showed my Black Widows Female Space Marines to Phil Kelly, and his reaction was, and I quote, “F*#%ing awesome, that’s what the hobby is all about!”

If GW is okay with it, then shouldn't you be too, Uhlan?


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And Doctor Thunder: Can i see the breasted orks?

Here ya go, from the GW online store:
Posted Image
Edited by Doctor Thunder, 14 Jan 2009, 06:38 PM.
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# Captain Wolverine
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Doctor Thunder
14 Jan 2009, 06:36 PM

Now, if you ask me what I would actually like them to look like in a perfect world, it would be something closer to this:
Posted Image



Quote:
 
And Doctor Thunder: Can i see the breasted orks?

Here ya go, from the GW online store:
Posted Image
I like that, more of want I would expect a female space marine, and I would recomend as I want to do the same and invest in sculpting lessons so we can see more of them.

And that is a Orc from blood bowl a cheerleader at that and not an Ork from 40k
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God I really didnt want to reply. But...

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Posted Image

But thats not female space marine. I've raised this point before. Space marine armour does not suit the female form, and that picture proves it. Sure as a comical bit of fun sure but not an army.

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Please tell me you are kidding, Uhlan.

Do you know how many things GW has changed/contradicted/forgotten/overwritten/left-unresolved over the years?
It's a terrible mish-mash of things lifted from Dune, Tolkien, Starship Troopers, Aliens, Anime, and 1984, duct-taped together by dozens of authors each doing their own thing without any kind of check-and-balance.

Let me correct some of the misunderstanding.
What I mean to say is that there are cornerstones of the fluff - the emperor being a rotting corpse, the eldar being a dying race. Sure theres thing like glands that can be brushed aside, but space marines being male in my opinion is one of those. To make women space marines, you have to change established fluff as mentioned before. In my opinion thats wrong because it takes away from two decades of awesome work by the designers.

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Well, that's like saying people are always going to cheat. Just because people do it doesn't make it right or appropriate.

If GW wants players to have fun and do their own thing, then how would you describe the behavior of players who go around trying to squelch the fun of others?

Not really with regards to cheating. People are entitled to have different opinions, that is right and very appropriate. In my opinion, your female space marines aren't good because of the fluff and the models. Paintings pretty good as it happens although not as good as some of your Black Widows I see.
At no point have I attempted to squelch on anyones fun, and its not bad behavior in the slightest. This is the internet where everyones opinion is as valid as the next mans whether you like it or not.

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Sure you can. Just make an historical ecclesiarchy army that existed prior to the reign of blood.

But hang on a minute, surely as you said "Why should I make the army you want me to make instead of the army I want to make?". What I'm trying to point out is that theres a few things that are in stone and in my opinion no female space marines is one of them. Again, Jokereo super psykers winning the game on the first turn.
So no, no I can't make a male sisters of battle army because it breaks the fluff too much just like male marines does. Its 20 year old established fluff thats been reinforced again and again and again with every model release. Unlike Robute Guilliman, which they've changed.

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But why? What's the purpose in that? What is your objective? Can't you just be happy for a fellow gamer enjoying his hobby?


To be honest Doctor Thunder your either not reading what I'm posting, not understanding me, or choosing to ignore it. If its just these bullit points then fine but please read them as I think this is getting a bit silly.

- I don't like your female marines. I've stated why. This is a hobby forum where work is critiqued and commented on. I didn't voice my opinion because it was negative but then I felt I was misunderstood so posted my feelings about your work which are length and numerous.

- I don't like anyone elses female marines. 99.9% of the ones I've seen are massive boob jobs, transvestite head swaps, and those that aren't are far too feminine. I have no wish to insult you so will not comment as to why I think people do these kind of things to space marines, as oppose to starting from scratch.

- I don't like the concept of female marines. Partly because over all these decades in the hobby, whilst several have done female power armour, no ones managed to make a female space marine and theres a big difference.

- Its toy soldiers, my opinion shouldn't make one jot of difference to your enjoyment of the hobby.

- Its not a personal attack, and it never has been, I've been trying to express my views and your attitude has been strange; what should have been a level headed discussion has turned into long winded quotes from games designers saying what I have been saying (its toy soldiers, doesn't matter etc etc my opinion etc etc).

- If I show my models or army to anyone, I accept there opinion providing they can back it up well, and doesn't just . E.G.
"Do you like my Jokereo?"
"No, because there suppose to have died out, or travelled into deep space, and so play no part in the current 40k background, and I will not play against you because I think its retarded"
"Well that is fair enough good sir, that is your opinion and I agree, that is a valid reason not to like them. Aside from that, do you like the painting...."

- Lastly, In my opinion, I dont understand why people have to feminize masculine things in 40k. Women have a place in 40k and simply feminizing a kit by putting boobs on it is, in my opinion, incredibly wrong. Its like saying strong women have no place in 40k, even in the roles where they rule utterly, because there not this or that (in this case, space marines).
 
Doctor Thunder
Sergeant
Just a quick note, I haven't taken anything personally, nor am I upset. I'm actually quite enjoying this discussion. :)

Uhlan
14 Jan 2009, 07:27 PM
But thats not female space marine.


It's a female with geneseed organs and wearing astartes-class power armor connected to the nervous system via the black carapace organ. How else do we define a female space marine if not by those standards? :)

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In my opinion thats wrong because it takes away from two decades of awesome work by the designers.

Why is that wrong? The game designers don't mind, in fact, we're already read about their positive reaction to it. If the games designers don't mind, then why would it be wrong?

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What I'm trying to point out is that there's a few things that are in stone and in my opinion no female space marines is one of them.

Vampires in space are okay with you, and Viking Werewolves in space are okay with you. But plop down a female space marine and now all of the sudden that's going to far?

I think we're just scratching at the surface here. Let's get to the heart of the matter:

1) Why is it necessary for you to imagine that the pretend world of 40K has cornerstones in opposition to GW's position on the matter?

2) Why is it necessary for you that other people adhere to those imaginary cornerstones before you can appreciate their work?



Here's another quote from a GW staff member regarding female space marines:
Dirty Steve:
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As far as i've heard or read, it has yet to be tried. That DOESN'T mean that it cannot be done. "Could" is a LOT different than "can" or "can't". So go ahead and make some female Space Marines! Make your own fluff! DO WHAT YOU LIKE. That's what the hobby is all about. It IS a fictional universe after all. :)

And if anyone wants to convert an all-female Space Marine army, PLEASE send me good photos. i think they'd be cool!


So, according to GW, making a female marine hasn't really been tried yet, but it is possible in the 40K universe.

If GW says it's possible and appropriate, shouldn't you believe them, Uhlan?

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So no, no I can't make a male sisters of battle army because it breaks the fluff too much just like male marines does.

Why? Male Ecclesiarchy armies actually appear in the fluff.

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Its 20 year old established fluff that's been reinforced again and again and again with every model release.

Actually, GW has removed the line about geneseed only working in males in the new SM codex. In fact, that fluff does not appear in any publication that GW currently sells.

It's not part of the current fluff, it's part of the old fluff. GW also used to sell female marines as part of the old fluff. So, some of the old fluff says there are female marines, and some of the old fluff says geneseed only works in males, and the current fluff doesn't place any restrictions on gender.

To me, it seems pretty weak to argue that we should follow some of the old fluff but not the rest of it.
Edited by Doctor Thunder, 14 Jan 2009, 08:08 PM.
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Nope, I'm done. My opinion doesn't matter and I am not entitled to it.

Glad we agree
 
Doctor Thunder
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Uhlan
14 Jan 2009, 08:05 PM
Nope, I'm done. My opinion doesn't matter and I am not entitled to it.

Glad we agree
It's okay, Uhlan. I understand. We all get a little passionate sometimes and need to take a step back. :)

I'm actually quite enjoying our debate. Feel free to come back to it later if you want to. :)
Edited by Doctor Thunder, 14 Jan 2009, 08:12 PM.
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# Captain Wolverine
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Oh bumfluff and fairy dust
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But whats the point, I've been posting its my opinion which is just as valid as yours, Ii've been saying that constantly, and you've ignored it.

Its not female space marines that make me depressed about the hobby, its people like you sadly. I'm sorry to have to make a personal comment but you've made no attempt to listen to what I've been saying. I really shouldn't have started posting here at all.
 
Doctor Thunder
Sergeant
Captain Wolverine
14 Jan 2009, 08:18 PM
Oh bumfluff and fairy dust
Eh?


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But whats the point, I've been posting its my opinion which is just as valid as yours, I've been saying that constantly, and you've ignored it.

Its not female space marines that make me depressed about the hobby, its people like you sadly. I'm sorry to have to make a personal comment but you've made no attempt to listen to what I've been saying. I really shouldn't have started posting here at all.

Well, remember that we are not face-to-face, so it can hard to correctly interpret tone and subtext. That is why I have been occasionally adding smilies throughout my posts so you wouldn't misinterpret me. :)

Who knows, perhaps if we met in person, we'd get along great and have a good time. That's why it's always good to be careful when talking online to give people the benefit of the doubt. :)
Edited by Doctor Thunder, 14 Jan 2009, 08:27 PM.
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# Captain Wolverine
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Smoochie boochie
Doctor Thunder
14 Jan 2009, 08:21 PM
Captain Wolverine
14 Jan 2009, 08:18 PM
Oh bumfluff and fairy dust
Eh?
The only sensible thing I could think of when it came to such a merry go round of an argue so wheres my magic mushrooms for I am playing with my plastics toys
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