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| female marines; fluff or just fun? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: 4 Jan 2009, 07:16 PM (1,659 Views) | |
| Deleted User | 4 Jan 2009, 07:16 PM Post #1 |
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Deleted User
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*climbs aboard the high horse of fluff*
The missing one is one of those leeway devices where it could be a woman, but... Way way back in the old fluff, not long after Rogue Trader era where they started laying the foundations of how to create a space marine, it was stated that women couldn't be marines. It was tried but they didn't accept all the additional organs (I think it had something to do with the progenoid but don't quote me). I also, and this is going out on a limb, seem to remember nearly all space marines being castrated and I don't mean chemically, as its an excess organ and not required (and it gets in the way of the black carapace so to speak). Its far easier to remove a mans excess then a womans so to speak. SOB and Inquisitors on the other hand are a different kettle of fish. Yes they can wear the armour but thats all it is, armour. Without that second heart, the multi-lung, the carapace, and all the rest of the gubbinz, there just not in the same league. Phil Kelly gave this as his reason for Inquisitors not having T4. As for the alpha legion twins I wouldn't count that just yet - no one knew that Alpharius had a twin so you could argue that theres still two missing. If anyone wants ill dig around, suffice to say they can't unless you use the missing primarch loop hole - or you simply say its toy soldiers, who cares? |
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| ☺Jasevx | 5 Jan 2009, 02:29 PM Post #2 |
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Techmarine
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good reply actually, nice to see a balanced approach unlike the fluffmeisters elsewhere. |
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| Deleted User | 5 Jan 2009, 04:55 PM Post #3 |
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Deleted User
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To be honest I'm completely against it - it doesn't fit the fluff, there's no real reason to do it*, and the main issue - the looks. I've been in the hobby years now, seen a lot of models, and so far the only good looking female power armor was made by doghouse on here some months back. Besides that, there either bad head swaps or massive boob sculpts, which no attention paid to the feminine form and how that would relate to the armor. Actually Ill change that, theres a good one over on hasslefrees website. Personally I don't like the above models because its just a head swap, and it doesn't work partly because the heads are too androgynous, and partly because theres certain perceptions of the female form which aren't here (aka, wheres the boobies?) But I thought that reply would be a little too harsh and I am new here *By which I mean, if you really want women in power armour, do sisters. Or if you want a female army, an army of Eschers wouldn't be much dearer then say a krieg or vostroyan army. |
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| Doctor Thunder | 5 Jan 2009, 06:14 PM Post #4 |
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Sergeant
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Actually, male space marines don't exist either. 40K is just pretend.
Why should I make the army you want me to make instead of the army I want to make? Are you offering to help pay for it? Edited by Doctor Thunder, 5 Jan 2009, 06:19 PM.
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| ☺Jasevx | 5 Jan 2009, 06:16 PM Post #5 |
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Techmarine
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Understand where you are coming from but my point about the Inquisitors wasn't the fact their stats are different (tho in some cases more wounds than a marine), but the fact they can wear both power armour and termie armour. So in fact women through the Inquisitors sanctioning could go through certain elements of the SM physical changes (but not all) and wear termie armour as 'enhanced retinue warriors' basically supped up SoB. I've read a book recently (trying to remember which one) where the Inquisitor had altered his physik to the point he was taller and stronger than the average marine, so the Inquisition has the 'access' to the technology. Edit. Dr Thunder,
Edited by Jasevx, 5 Jan 2009, 06:17 PM.
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| Deleted User | 6 Jan 2009, 02:21 PM Post #6 |
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Deleted User
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Well yeah but theres certain things you also have to take into account. Marines begin there development during there teens, where as an inquisitors unlikely to enter service till he's in his fortys or fifties, probably older - although the upper age is irrelvant due to the various drugs they can get hold of, it does rule them out of lots of the adaptations that are available to space marines which effectively make them as hard as nails. Changing one guy isn't a problem, because if it goes wrong a quick bolt to the back of the head and the problems sorted. Imagine the headache caused by thousands of genetically enchanced inquisitors with carte blanche operating in the imperium... My point was anyone can wear powered armour, but its whats inside it that makes the difference.
I'm entitled to my opinion on the subject - as I stated, its toy soldiers and people should do what they want. Part of my opinion involves the fact that I don't understand the reason why people want female SPACE MARINES when it seems to go against there back ground as well as there being alternatives.
This is my point though. If you want good looking females in power armor then you will have to pay over the odds because GW wont make it outside of sisters because it doesn't fit there fluff - thats not being sexist, thats not them being a bad company, its just the way they've written it. Now as stated, doghouse made an excellent power armored woman (see here) for roughly twenty pound - only slightly dearer then a squad of space marines. Like I've said, if you want X you have to pay for it, and if you cut corners then you have to take the critism for it, but as its all toy soldiers what difference does it make anyway EDIT- Wow ramble or what |
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| Doctor Thunder | 6 Jan 2009, 04:15 PM Post #7 |
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Sergeant
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Why did I make female marines? It’s quite simple. I made them for the same reason you made your army. Because I thought it was cool. ![]() What gives 40K such a wide appeal is its ability to express to a wide range of archetypes. For people who enjoy the “Everyman Hero,” the Imperial Guard are very appealing, taking on the horrors of the 40K universe with only their lasguns and their grit. Space Marines occupy the “Super Hero” archetype, but its natural counterpart, the “Super Heroine” is completely absent from the 40K range of options. Some people are inspired by the movie 300 and make a hoplite 40K army, some people are inspired by Band of Brothers and make a WWII paratrooper 40K army. I’m no different. My inspiration came from the Species movies, as well as many of my favorite Heroines from comic books and animation, both Western and Japanese. I think a badass female super-soldier is awesome. Like Spike said from the Coyboy Bebop movie, “I love a woman who can kick my [arse].” A group of hard-drinking, hard-fighting female super soldiers is just my cup of tea. I can’t explain why I think it’s so cool, I just know that it’s cool. I imagine them breaking into a room and saying, “We came here to kick [arse] and chew gum, and we’re all out of gum.” Now, I also own a Sisters of Battle army, and I'm quite fond of them, but they occupy a completely different archetype, that of a pure and holy warrior, or a paladin, a normal human whose will has become completely subsumed in righteous service to their god. Completely different archetype from that of a superheroine.
We all have our reasons for entering the hobby, but I think the thread we all have in common is that the hobby provides a momentary escape from the real world, which is often depressing and disappointing. If our hobby becomes as full of depressing and disappointing things as real life is, then there is no longer any real point in doing it. It is for that reason that I think it is important that every hobbyist go out of his way to make sure that others have a good time as well. You may remember this as being codified as the most important rule of the hobby. I believe that there is room for all types of hobbyists at the table. Everyone should feel free to bring their varied and distinct approaches and feel welcome. In a hobby based on fun, there is only one approach that is unacceptable. Only one attitude that is unwelcome. It is this: demanding that others conform to your type of fun. I applaud people who have obviously put time and effort into making their army. I've seen thousands of unpainted imperial guard armies, so when I see one loving converted and painted to look like star wars, I wanna' slap them on the shoulder and say, "thank you for taking the time and effort into making something great." It doesn't matter whether or not it fits the pretend background. What matters is that they are enjoying their hobby, and I try to encourage that, rather than squelch it. When someone says "hey, you shouldn't have done that," it drains the fun out of the hobby for everyone involved. When someone says, "good on ya', mate," it adds to the fun of the hobby. Think of it this way, Uhlan: Which gaming club would you rather be a part of? The club that, no matter what you bring in, says, "Oh, you should have done that totally differently," or the club that, no matter what you bring in, says, "awesome army, pull up a chair." Edited by Doctor Thunder, 6 Jan 2009, 04:18 PM.
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| # Captain Wolverine | 6 Jan 2009, 07:03 PM Post #8 |
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Smoochie boochie
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Okay I am gonna have my 10 pence worth and remember this is my opinions and is not flaming or trolling. This is the reason why people outside the hobby laugh at us, Sad little geeks can't get a girl so I will make a girl or in this cases a whole army. I will admitt that when given the option in a computer game I will 9/10 choose a female character, just makes it more interesting, not because I can't get a girl, I happen to be married to a stunner who is 4 months pregnant. Even if done well gets my goat (although Doghouses was sweet), but these are not done to well, and the painting on parts are not excuted well either. I don't care about fluff and am all for people being creative and doing what they want, but sorry thunder it is these type of thing that really winds me up. I laugh at myself when I remember during my teenager years buying minature that were naked, I never painted them and still have them. But it makes us look bad and desperate. The female effigy has it place in the miniature world when use well, but from your efforts Thunder all I can tell is your a desperate teenager who can't get a girlfriend. Saying that I don't even know you thunder and you could easily be the complete opposite. Other may come to the same conclusion as all your miniatures that I can remember all badly done female space marines, with some more thought a good alternative to the metal SOB could be found but you are attacking this from the wrong direction. Instead of trying to change male minature to female you need to convert female modesl into power armour clad harpies (no reference to sal intended). Please Doctor thunder remember while you read this it is not a personall attack against you just my opinion on your efforts, which in my view you are total entitled to do it is just the focus of it that rubs me up the wrong way. As a final word This is not to flame / troll or attack anyone. Edited by Captain Wolverine, 6 Jan 2009, 07:16 PM.
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| # Digits | 6 Jan 2009, 07:46 PM Post #9 |
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Shadowkin
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Regardless of the arguments lets put one thing abundantly clear before we draw a line under it. This forum is set up to allow any free expression of an individuals perception of the 40k world. I have an army of gun toting skellies. I don't ever remember anyone on here castigating me for something that does not exist in the 40k universe and as such, I see no reason for anyone to get on their high horse over these minis. Hat's off to you mate. I think they ARE well painted and a novel idea. Now, please stop this very un-AB style bashing! |
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| Deleted User | 6 Jan 2009, 07:52 PM Post #10 |
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Deleted User
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Wow this is all a bit of a storm in a teacup isn't it? Doctor thunder, could you please go read what I've been posting before taking things so personally - Its toy soldiers, if your happy then who cares? I'm full entitled to my opinion which has been stated above quite clearly. The problem is your now bringing in different things that I disagree with.
Well yes and no. My favorite piece of fluff is one where a company of loyalist marines (either celestial lions or Marines malevolent) decimates a refuge camp as its location was tactically unsound. What any of this has to do with female space marines is beyond me.
But thats one of my sticking points - why does a woman, in 40k, have to be special before she's hard as nails? Why does she need that super weapon, enhanced body or psychic power before she has a part to play. Its strange how in a popular sci fi thats been going so long, there aren't more strong women who aren't player created.
As do I and you've missed what I've said. I love the fluff, I think its fantastic and I'm happy to prattle on for hours about it. In a lot of respect it influences the things I make and the style I paint more so then films or television. Not only that, but I do consider the hobby an art form and a form of escapism, and because of that whilst I would slap someone on the shoulder for innovation, if it looks bad I'm happy for the second slap to be around the back of the persons head for saying somethings an apple when its really an orange. Again, its all my opinion and I'm sorry you've took it as a personal slight, but they don't look like women - they just like space marines with dodgy heads with the possible exception of the Templar who kinda works but would stick out like a sore thumb in an army.
If I brought my army to a club, and put it on the table, I'd want an honest opinion because at the end of the day, if I'm happy with my models then others opinions shouldn't matter. In addition, if those opinions are productive and include suggestions on what to do better next time, then if you take those on board - if there right for you of course - then surely you'll achieve better results? Thats how I've always improved, I'm sure thats how others do it to. If I may be so bold part of why I don't really post here (I like to look at the pretty pictures) is that theres too much awesome army talk and not enough constructive criticism - not that a lot of its needed, but theres some really talented people here who sometimes slip down a peg or two and giving that extra 'you can do better' comment wouldn't hurt. Right thats doctor thunder out of the way - gosh these are long replies!
Well you've got to remember for a start that technology in 40k is regressing not progressing, so if they couldn't do it during the emperors life time chances of them doing it now are slim to non. Plus, singular yes, plural no. If a thousand women die to create one, then its no sweat of an Inquisitors back until it comes time to pay his bill. And he'll be stuffed if he wants armies of em. Like I said, thats what the fluff says, my opinion is its toy soldiers, do what you like.
I was waiting for that book to pop up... I didn't mean literally thousands - after all, how many inquisitors are there in the imperium and how longs a piece of string? My point was that very few inquisitors ever get to the point where they can kick a space marines teeth in during HTH combat let alone a squad. Years if not decades of traversing the galaxy to get all the right implants, a life time addicted to the various stimulants that keep them working, and all that whilst trusting the surgeon. Even after all that he is still going to be a human. And they wont go toe to toe with space marines without using every advantage at there disposal whether that be daemonic weapons, psychic power or hordes of henchmen. Now whats being discussed is putting the same time and resources those few inquisitors will go to, into producing an army of female space marines, despite the fact that its a hell of a lot easier to produce males. Personally given the choice between lots of space marines, and a few, I'd go for the lots. See all of this has gotten out of hand so I'll go back to not posting, at the end of the day its toy soldiers, its a game, it doesn't matter. Fluff wise no, within the canon, it doesn't work to make a female Astartes because of various differences between men and women and I'm sorry but thats whats written in the book and I can't change that. Can it work if you muck around with it a bit fluff wise? Sure absolutely (female missing primarch, Inquisitor with a Mastercard, Ad Mech on an acid trip, whatever). It won't be canon but then again niethers putting a HR Gigers Aliens (actually, bad example).. er.. the Predator from the film of the same name into 40k but I'm still going to do it when Heresy release there Hurn. Will people accept female space marines? some will and some won't, but I wouldn't ask people to stop trying and I hope that one day I do see that cool looking female space marine army. *Rides on the fluff horse into the sunset* |
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| Deleted User | 6 Jan 2009, 07:58 PM Post #11 |
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Deleted User
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Sorry Digits, I didn't notice your reply (it took me some time to write all that!). See now I replied when I said I wouldn't, what a kerfuffel |
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| Doctor Thunder | 6 Jan 2009, 08:32 PM Post #12 |
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Sergeant
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I understand what you are saying. I think you already realize how unfair it is to make sweeping assumptions about someone, especially when it's really easy to just ask me about who I am instead. ![]() I’m 31, a family man, a pilot, and a professional writer. My life is filled with very serious and sober things, and every now and then I like to take a few minutes out of my hectic schedule to dink around with something that is neither important nor serious. That's where 40K comes in. ![]()
There are many ways to be honest. There is honest and polite, and there is honest and rude. There is honest and helpful, and there is honest and unhelpful. ![]()
Well, I know it's really common to say that the opinions of others don't matter, but they do. We're all human, and we all care what people think. You, me, everybody. That's why, at the end of the day, our right to post our opinion should be held in check by our duty to be civil.
Edited by Doctor Thunder, 6 Jan 2009, 08:43 PM.
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| # Captain Wolverine | 6 Jan 2009, 09:08 PM Post #13 |
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Smoochie boochie
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Well Doctor Thunder can I say you have me impressed, you have read my very badly written post and understood it too. I am very glda you saw my post as just my opinions on what I saw and have read. As I said I don't know you from jack, but a pilot hey what type of craft? But I nothing about planes. Writer too writing what? I openly admitt the geek inside wants to paint the nudie girls and may have to while waiting for the wife the giving birth |
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| chromedog | 12 Jan 2009, 08:05 AM Post #14 |
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Warrant Officer Second Class
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Most of the arguments that I've seen from (certain of) the fluff-fascists, justifying their 'female SM hate' have been based around the "but the implants are keyed to certain male hormones, which females don't produce." argument. 1) Females produce the same hormones that males produce, although they are in different proportions, and usually 'balanced' by the 'female' hormone set. However, SM aren't JUST males. They are males chosen because of martial and or physical prowess and genetic "strength" and are presumably very fit subjects. Closer to athletes than, say, gaming geeks. Elite female athletes tend to develop less feminine body shapes, and in extreme cases, will exhibit some kind of masculine expression (excess and different body hair, secondary sexual characteristics). Their 'feminine' hormone production ratio drops and the more masculine hormones tend to express better without the limiting factors. Elite athlites also usually have much lower body-fat percentages (and breasts are mostly fat). Based upon this, there is nothing that would disallow the formation of female SM. However, this involves the use of science and logic, both of which are anathema to 40k. My own 2c, is that unless a FEMALE SM was wearing artificer armour (like say, dante) that was sculpted to look feminine, there is no reason that you would know what the sex of the suit occupant is if it were sealed up. An 'athletic' female would fit into a comparable suit to her male counterpart, and the suit would undoubtedly have some leeway to fitting the occupant. RJ Heinlein's ST suits would adjust to suit the occupant. In any higher tech SF game (even traveller), this is usually the case. I'm all for diversity in this game. After all, you can, with time, field an all-female eldar army. Tau females can operate the same battlesuits as their male counterparts. Count me on the 'pro' side of the debate. |
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| # Old Guard | 12 Jan 2009, 08:48 AM Post #15 |
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Entertainment officer...Meet the gang cos the boys are here.....
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To some degree this is all a wasted argument. unless someone can point it out, I am not aware of any 'official' Fluff that says lady marines. we have girls in the Guard, SOB, inquisitors and retinues, Tau, Eldar.......but i have seen nothing with regards to marines, Is it possible? well maybee If you want to build some?...fill your boots. Its just that for most, whilst yes this is Scifi and all is possible there have to be some boundaries other wise everyone has a God gun that kills every thing and you just end up making it all up as you go along... What next? Tits on Orks? the ultimate Sexless (we grow under rocks) creature. but i like tits, so fine whatever.... but expect some comments. |
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| ☺Jasevx | 12 Jan 2009, 09:13 AM Post #16 |
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Techmarine
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Tits on Orks? You been drinking in Gosport by any chance? |
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| Penguin of Death | 12 Jan 2009, 09:22 AM Post #17 |
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Lieutenant
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But female Marines don't change the rules in any way - a Female Maine would have the same rules as a male one, just about everyone on this site has some kind of counts as mini or vehicle in their army - why is this any different? |
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| ☺Jasevx | 12 Jan 2009, 04:37 PM Post #18 |
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Techmarine
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theres no difference unless its a fluff issue and this board usually doesn't give a damn about that. Plus there are still human worlds out there still no brought back into the Imperium, if they have std machines for the power armour, you may find female soldiers wearing it (obviously early patterns!) |
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| Deleted User | 12 Jan 2009, 05:04 PM Post #19 |
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Deleted User
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Alright I said I wasn't going to post here but hey. I wanted to point out as well that this isn't just a rant, and was a response to a question raised with regards to Doctor Thunders women of the Imperium thread. The original fluffs in rogue trader if I remember correctly. Its a line or two saying how due to physical differences women can't be space marines. It might just be pliability; the male form being suited to augmentation when compared with female. In my opinion, its got to do with the sexual organs - you have to remember that at the age when Marines are selected there going through puberty and those changes could cause havoc with quite a complex procedure which seemingly supplements a males natural growth anyway. Again, my personal opinion is that the Imperium isn't known for going the long way around. The other thing I'd say is this. GW aren't misogynist - in fact there a very progressive company. When they started this all off it wouldn't have made that big of a difference to say there were both men and women in the astartes (even sculpting wise - they could have kept marines closed helmeted). They didn't. Instead they made a distinct line from the beginning and have maintained that right up to the present day that Astartes are male. With the introduction of the Horus Heresy series they have had the opportunity rewrite this and they haven't. As I've said I'm pretty sure it was tried and failed, but that doesn't make 40k a bad place fluff wise. Take the high lords of terra for example - all but 2 of the nine permanent members could be women and of the remaining seat options only three of eight (depending on whether you still count Primarchs). Moving away from the background stuff, you have the Sisters of Silence and the Sisters of Battle. Both power armored, neither augmented to space marine levels or arguably as well equipped and self-regulating. That though has been my point all along - there are 'hard' women and 'hard' all female armies in 40k. Sure they don't have all the kit that the men do but that is because they simply don't need it; they can get the job done without all the messing about a marine will do and still have time for prayers. Having rambled on about that though, and for the umpteenth time, I don't particularly care. Its a game about toy soldiers. Is it canon? as I've said before No it is not canon or you'd be buying female marines not making them. Does it matter? No, have fun and enjoy yourself but bear in mind some one will always point at those models and say 'that can't work'. As a late reply to Digits, didn't you post awhile back some fluff about how they were possessed by the forces of chaos? You wrote some fluff about a mist that wasted them down to the bone and left them alive if I remember. That's fine with me because it doesn't go against canon but these do so I was happy to raise my concerns. I wasn't bashing the work particularly, just the concept, and we're all free to express our like and dislike of ideas and I've clearly explained why I disliked it so that should be the end of it on my part. |
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| Doctor Thunder | 14 Jan 2009, 04:50 AM Post #20 |
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Sergeant
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Games Workshop would disagree with you. Here's a quote from an article written by the design team in order to clarify a lot of 40K myths that have developed in regards to the fluff: White Dwarf (US) 302
Notice the openness of their language. Nothing is concrete until a player makes it so for themselves. Full of possibilities that don't limit the potential of the setting. Games Workshop invites us players to make our own corner of the universe in whatever way we each see fit. Like the 2nd edition rule book said, "It's a big galaxy, and anything that can happen, probably has at some point. But, no matter what happens one thing is certain: You will not be missed." If Games Workshop is okay with it, Old Guard, shouldn't you be too?
I understand that you were trying to make up a ridiculous example in order to illustrate your point, but you should know that GW currently makes and sells exactly that.
I think I'm starting to understand, Uhlan. Allow me to correct the core misunderstanding you have about 40K. 40K doesn't have canon. In fact, 40K is very different then almost any other sci-fi you are likely to encounter. And I don’t mean that it’s gothic and vast. I mean that it is written without the 3rd person objective voice ever being used. In most sci-fi, we are accustomed to the “voice” of the narration being omniscient, knowing exactly what has happened and what is happening. Even if the characters involved in the story may never know the whole truth, the narrator does, and so, generally, the reader does as well. Publishers generally hate the idea that the readers may get confused and frustrated with loose ends, and normally demand full and correct disclosure to the readers at some point. Even though there may have been half-truths and misunderstandings along the way, by the end of the series, the readers are given a full and truthful picture of the world they have been reading about. 40K, however, never does this. Here to explain it better then I can, we have a very important quote from Marc Gascoigne - Publisher, The Black Library and Black Flame
Notice that even when he is talking about things that some players consider fairly indisputable, like the Black Templars lacking the belchers gland, his response is still "’sometimes’ or ‘it varies’ or ‘depends.’" So, what do we learn from these very important quotes? 1) That the idea of "canon" is incompatible with the way 40K is written. There is no such thing as canon in 40K. No matter how much we may wish it were to be so, there is no full and truthful picture, only scraps of information of questionable validity. 2) That the idea of a "shared universe" is a fan construct only. 40K is a multiverse, where each player is intended to and asked to create their own version. In one player’s universe, Cypher is working to kill The Emperor, in another player’s universe, he is working to restore The Emperor. Again, we may want the 40K universe to be a consistent and defined singular place like other sci-fi brands, but no matter how much we may wish it to be, it is not. 3) That GW does not intend their universe to be anything more then a setting, and any attempt or desire to place borders and limitations on something that is not designed to have borders and limitations goes against the express intent of the background. I think we all love the 40K background, but I think that love leads some players to wish it was more concrete then it really is, or more consistent then it really is. Our love of 40K background must never lead us to change it into it is something it is not. Sure, it may not be as exciting to talk about rumors as it is to talk about actual events. It may not be as emotionally satisfying to tell someone that they are allowed to interpret something as they see fit instead of telling them that they are just plain wrong, but when we treat 40K as a closed and defined universe we are perverting what it is into something that it is not. So, as you can see, there is no need to berate players for treating the 40K universe as open and ill-defined. They are only doing what they are supposed to do.
Actually, you can buy them on ebay occasionally. Didn't you know that Games Workshop used to make and sell female space marine models at one point? Where do you think I got the idea from in the first place? Female Space Marines were one of the first blisters I purchased when I was a kid.
Edited by Doctor Thunder, 14 Jan 2009, 04:53 AM.
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8:35 AM Jul 11