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Academy Awards; or how to kill 3 1/2 hours
Topic Started: Mar 8 2010, 05:06 AM (1,140 Views)
beatlechick
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Congratulations to The Hurt Locker for winning best director and picture. It was a good movie but thought the artistry of Avatar was better.
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The older members of the Academy weren't quite ready to give a trophy to a 'cartoon' in spite of Avatar being the greatest achievement in films of the past century. James Taylor's version of 'In My Life' in memory of those who died was quite nice.
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beatlechick
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I don't buy that. Lord of the Rings movies won as best picture and that is just as cartoonish, which I don't think Avatar is by any stretch of the imagination. I saw 3 of the 10 nominated best pictures and was actually pulling for the long shot of District 9 knowing it didn't have a snowball's chance in hell of winning.

Avatar was visually stunning but the story was just so-so, but beautifully done. The Hurtlocker was good but I was falling asleep watching it. It did deserve best directing.

Sorry, I thought James Taylor's version was rather boring but then I don't really like James Taylor.
Edited by beatlechick, Mar 8 2010, 05:56 AM.
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FamousGroupie
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Bugger. I shouldn't have opened this thread. I haven't seen the telecast yet. I didn't want to know until then.
I don't believe in Bondi. I don't believe in rugby league. I believe in Yoko, John Lennon, the Lost Weekend and me.
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beatlechick
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FamousGroupie
Mar 8 2010, 07:31 AM
Bugger. I shouldn't have opened this thread. I haven't seen the telecast yet. I didn't want to know until then.
Sorry Clare. You won't miss much with the telecast. Was looking forward to seeing Steve Martin and Alec Baldwin hosting but just was not all that good.
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Actually, I have to say - this is the first year in a long time that I really haven't been that interested. I only really want to see one film that was nominated - Precious.
I don't believe in Bondi. I don't believe in rugby league. I believe in Yoko, John Lennon, the Lost Weekend and me.
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Bill
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beatlechick
Mar 8 2010, 05:55 AM
I don't buy that. Lord of the Rings movies won as best picture and that is just as cartoonish, which I don't think Avatar is by any stretch of the imagination. I saw 3 of the 10 nominated best pictures and was actually pulling for the long shot of District 9 knowing it didn't have a snowball's chance in hell of winning.

Avatar was visually stunning but the story was just so-so, but beautifully done. The Hurtlocker was good but I was falling asleep watching it. It did deserve best directing.
The problem is that the Arts and the Sciences don't necessarily overlap. There's no question that Avatar is a wonderful technical achievement but whether it's a good film depends on if it can move people in ways other than the wow factor.

Personally, I think taking $2 billion is its own reward.
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Bill
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Oh, and Quentin Tarantino is overrated. There. I said it.
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beatlechick
Mar 8 2010, 05:55 AM

Avatar was visually stunning but the story was just so-so, but beautifully done.

I agree. The story was so boring.

I think Avatar winning cinematography, art direction and visual effects was good enough. The movie was all about it.

The good surprise was the Foreign language film winner "The Secret in Their Eyes (El Secreto de Sus Ojos)" from Argentina.

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Cleo
Mar 8 2010, 08:12 AM
The good surprise was the Foreign language film winner "The Secret in Their Eyes (El Secreto de Sus Ojos)" from Argentina.

:clap: :clap: :clap:
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Bill
Mar 8 2010, 08:09 AM
Oh, and Quentin Tarantino is overrated. There. I said it.
I like him, but he's not up there in my mind with Kubrick, Scorcese, and Lynch. He did an excellent job with Inglorious Basterds.
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Bill
Mar 8 2010, 08:09 AM
Oh, and Quentin Tarantino is overrated. There. I said it.
Tarantino peaked with Pulp Fiction and Kill Bill. Now he is just a loud-mouthed punk-ass director, but I like him...
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FamousGroupie
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I didn't even like Kill Bill.
I don't believe in Bondi. I don't believe in rugby league. I believe in Yoko, John Lennon, the Lost Weekend and me.
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beatlechick
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BeatleBarb
Mar 9 2010, 02:50 AM
Bill
Mar 8 2010, 08:09 AM
Oh, and Quentin Tarantino is overrated. There. I said it.
I like him, but he's not up there in my mind with Kubrick, Scorcese, and Lynch. He did an excellent job with Inglorious Basterds.
Loved this movie.

Sorry Lee, didn't like Kill Bill but think that Tarantino hasn't really lost his touch..
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Bill
Mar 8 2010, 08:09 AM
Oh, and Quentin Tarantino is overrated. There. I said it.
booooooooooooo!

There. I said it, lol.
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beatlechick
Mar 9 2010, 03:46 PM
BeatleBarb
Mar 9 2010, 02:50 AM
Bill
Mar 8 2010, 08:09 AM
Oh, and Quentin Tarantino is overrated. There. I said it.
I like him, but he's not up there in my mind with Kubrick, Scorcese, and Lynch. He did an excellent job with Inglorious Basterds.
Loved this movie.

Sorry Lee, didn't like Kill Bill but think that Tarantino hasn't really lost his touch..
I think Kill Bill is generally considered to be Tarantino's masterpiece, but it's VERY violent and, clearly, won't appeal to many people.
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modgirl1964
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You know, I'm actually glad that a movie like The Hurt Locker won. If anyone hasn't seen it, you really should. It's an eye opener of what our troops are dealing with over there and probably I what think the best view of it. It's not done as another "Bad-guy terrorist, shoot them up" film, but a true war film as Saving Private Ryan was done. And thank god that a woman finally won best director!!!!
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It was also the first time a female won the Best Directing Oscar.

Oops! Should have finished reading before posting... :duh:
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JeffLynnesBeard
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Kill Bill was dreadful. Juvenile.

However, I loved Pulp Fiction and Inglorious Basterds.

And I couldn't really give a stuff about the Oscars.
...and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
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Kill Bill Vol. 1 (2003)

Starring: Uma Thurman, Lucy Liu

RS: 4 of 4 Stars
Average User Rating: 2.5 of 4 Stars

Like a dick-swinging flasher, Quentin Tarantino lets all his obsessions hang out in Kill Bill: Vol. 1. Some people may want to kill him for it, and not just because they'll have to pay again to see Vol. 2, set for release on February 20th. Kill Bill is an act of indecent exposure. Everything that makes Tarantino tumescent -- kung-fu fighting, samurai flicks, spaghetti westerns and babe-on-babe head bashing, preferably with swords -- is stuffed into the 110 minutes of Vol. 1. No use hammering Tarantino for raiding the lost ark of 1970s pop culture when his movie is killingly funny, wildly inventive, bloody as a gushing artery and heart-stoppingly beautiful. Tarantino has the talent to show us what's sacred about the profane, even if you didn't enjoy a misspent youth in seedy theaters with floors sticky from God knows what. In Kill Bill, Tarantino brings delicious sin back to movies -- the thrill you get from something down, dirty and dangerous.

Tarantino sets the mood with a faded logo, complete with scratchy sound, announcing our feature presentation, to be shown in shaw scope, a homage to the Shaw brothers, the Chinese producers of 1970s epics such as Death Kick. And what if you don't know the Shaw brothers from the Olsen twins? No sweat. Sure it's more fun if you get the references, but Tarantino knows how to grab you hard.

Uma Thurman is a gorgeous tower of power as the Bride. She was done wrong by her boss, Bill (David Carradine, heard but not seen in Vol. 1), and her former buds at DiVAS (Deadly Viper Assassination Squad), including O-Ren Ishii (Lucy Liu), Elle Driver (Daryl Hannah) and Vernita Green (Vivica A. Fox). At her wedding in Texas, the Bride -- pregnant (by Bill) and ready to go straight and marry a civilian -- is rudely surprised when the divas bust in, kill the groom, beat her senseless and leave her and her unborn child for the gravedigger. Four years later, this pussycat emerges from a coma ready to kill, kill, kill.

That's the setup for Tarantino to film each scene in a different style (cinematographer Robert Richardson and editor Sally Menke both work miracles) that may reference Kinji Fukasaku's Battles Without Honor and Humanity or, for all I know, home movies from Tarantino's crazy cousin. The story hopscotches from Pasadena, California, where the Bride confronts Vernita at home, to Okinawa, where she finds ninja Hattori Hanzo, played by the great Sonny Chiba, who did the same role in the Japanese TV series Shadow Warriors. Hattori makes the Bride a sword to take on O-Ren Ishii and her black-suited yakuzas. How did O-Ren rise to the top of the Tokyo underworld? Tarantino tells her back story in an anime sequence of startling vividness. But that's just a warm-up for the Bride's showdown with O-Ren and her thugs at the House of Blue Leaves, a nightclub that turns into a battlefield. It's a fight scene for the ages, expertly choreographed by Tarantino and martial-arts adviser Yuen Wo-Ping, who outdoes his Matrix magic. Computers generated all those Agent Smiths in The Matrix Reloaded. But the Yakuzas aren't digital. They bleed. And it's not all in fun. You can feel their pain.

Harsh reality intrudes on all Tarantino films -- Reservoir Dogs, Pulp Fiction, the underrated Jackie Brown and even this one. When the Bride, ready to pounce, visits Vernita at home, a school bus pulls up carrying Vernita's young daughter. The Bride sees that her actions will have consequences, and we see it, too. It's these consequences that give the film dramatic weight and make it more than a Tarantino masturbatory fantasy or chop-socky's greatest hits. When the Bride cuts through O-Ren's army to face her nemesis alone, there is a quiet elegance to the ritual -- the scene is shot in the falling snow with a tenderness that belies the gore. I feared that Liu had become a one-trick pony, her cold-bitch shtick hitting a new low in Charlie's Angels: Full Throttle. But she brings fire and feeling to O-Ren. And wait till you see Chiaki Kuriyama as O-Ren's mace-swinging teen bodyguard Go Go Yubari and Julie Dreyfus as Sofie Fatale, O-Ren's multilingual assistant. Hot stuff -- though no one beats Thurman for sizzle. She's a warrior goddess, up there with Sigourney Weaver in Aliens. It's Thurman, in her best performance yet, who raises the bar on the role and the movie by showing that the Bride's battle is not without honor or humanity.

For Tarantino, who set aside his skill at dialogue to show he can do pure action, the film is a challenge to his ego. Ads trumpet Kill Bill as "the Fourth Film by Quentin Tarantino." Talk about hubris. Fellini didn't even start counting till 8 1/2. But moxie is part of Tarantino's DNA. Who else would make his first film in six years a wet kiss to kung fu and pack it with his fetishes for ultraviolence, Uma Thurman's feet and music from Nancy Sinatra to RZA? And who else could pull it off? Kill Bill is damn near as good as Tarantino thinks it is.

PETER TRAVERS
(October 9, 2003)
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JeffLynnesBeard
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And?
...and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
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Queenbee
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The academy sure did snub Farrah. I mean give me a break, would it have been too much to have honored here? Shame on the Academy.

PEACE and love to my friends, Judy

When the Power of Love over comes the Love of Power, the world will know Peace.
-Sri Chinmnoy Ghose

Till me meet again ~ I Love you Mike! You were one of a kind.
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JeffLynnesBeard
Mar 9 2010, 06:21 PM
And?
I understand that it has already been made clear that music and film critics are not considered legitimate sources of objective qualitative information about art by some members of this forum, but I thought others might like to get an idea of why Kill Bill might not be for everyone, but is considered brilliant by others.
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DCBeatle64
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My sister loves Kill Bill, but she is a big fan of Tarintino, me I'm not so bothered. All this stuff is subjective and I think its probably best to watch the film rather than form your opinions from a review
I'm a BIGGER Beatles fan than you and I'm an even BIGGER Wings fan than that...
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So you would agree that the best, most astute observer of films could easily agree that Gone With the Wind, The Wizard of Oz and Casablanca are all mindless rubbish completely undeserving of anyone's attention? :innocent:
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DCBeatle64
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I've only ever seen one out of the three
I'm a BIGGER Beatles fan than you and I'm an even BIGGER Wings fan than that...
'You're a Paul McCartney fan? No you're a Wings fan'. 'Thankyou Scotland' Ho Hey Ho...
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Bill
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LapisLee
Mar 9 2010, 08:13 PM
JeffLynnesBeard
Mar 9 2010, 06:21 PM
And?
I understand that it has already been made clear that music and film critics are not considered legitimate sources of objective qualitative information about art by some members of this forum, but I thought others might like to get an idea of why Kill Bill might not be for everyone, but is considered brilliant by others.
So you're saying that nobody else knows how to use the internet?
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Bill
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Pulp Fiction is great but I think on the whole, Tarantino is the Noel Gallagher of cinema. His talent is pinching from other movies and his genius is that he steals from movies that no-one else has seen. I guess there's a knack to it of course but what kind of genius does it take to make "Quentin's Mashup of 70s B-movies and Obscure Japanese Kung-Fu Flicks Volume 5"?

Get some new ideas.
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Bill
Mar 9 2010, 10:52 PM
LapisLee
Mar 9 2010, 08:13 PM
JeffLynnesBeard
Mar 9 2010, 06:21 PM
And?
I understand that it has already been made clear that music and film critics are not considered legitimate sources of objective qualitative information about art by some members of this forum, but I thought others might like to get an idea of why Kill Bill might not be for everyone, but is considered brilliant by others.
So you're saying that nobody else knows how to use the internet?
Yes Bill, that is exactly what I am saying. The only other explanation would be that few people would be willing to google a review of film they have never seen with the title 'Kill Bill'. Hey, that title is particularly apropos at the moment, now that I think about it... :devil:
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DCBeatle64
Mar 9 2010, 09:44 PM
I've only ever seen one out of the three
Don't bother. They all suck.
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Bill
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Some of us prefer to think for ourselves.

Come and have a go if you think you're hard enough. :P
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beatlechick
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LapisLee
Mar 9 2010, 09:26 PM
So you would agree that the best, most astute observer of films could easily agree that Gone With the Wind, The Wizard of Oz and Casablanca are all mindless rubbish completely undeserving of anyone's attention? :innocent:
Sure why not? Their opinion is just as valid as one who gets paid to review. BTW, I never want to see The Wizard of Oz again but never saw Gone with the Wind.

I didn't like Kill Bill but not for the violence, I just thought it as boring.
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beatlechick
Mar 10 2010, 02:21 AM
LapisLee
Mar 9 2010, 09:26 PM
So you would agree that the best, most astute observer of films could easily agree that Gone With the Wind, The Wizard of Oz and Casablanca are all mindless rubbish completely undeserving of anyone's attention? :innocent:
Sure why not? Their opinion is just as valid as one who gets paid to review. BTW, I never want to see The Wizard of Oz again but never saw Gone with the Wind.

I didn't like Kill Bill but not for the violence, I just thought it as boring.
So, following this line of reasoning, a person who spent their entire life studying and performing music, would have no more insight into whether Paul McCartney's music is good or bad than a deaf person who had never heard a single note of music in their entire life?

Kill Bill is many things, but it's not boring.
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beatlechick
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LapisLee
Mar 10 2010, 02:29 AM
beatlechick
Mar 10 2010, 02:21 AM
LapisLee
Mar 9 2010, 09:26 PM
So you would agree that the best, most astute observer of films could easily agree that Gone With the Wind, The Wizard of Oz and Casablanca are all mindless rubbish completely undeserving of anyone's attention? :innocent:
Sure why not? Their opinion is just as valid as one who gets paid to review. BTW, I never want to see The Wizard of Oz again but never saw Gone with the Wind.

I didn't like Kill Bill but not for the violence, I just thought it as boring.
So, following this line of reasoning, a person who spent their entire life studying and performing music, would have no more insight into whether Paul McCartney's music is good or bad than a deaf person who had never heard a single note of music in their entire life?

Kill Bill is many things, but it's not boring.
It's all subjective.

As far as Kill Bill, THAT'S YOUR OPINION! Not mine. It was boring!
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JeffLynnesBeard
Mar 9 2010, 06:09 PM
Kill Bill was dreadful. Juvenile.

However, I loved Pulp Fiction and Inglorious Basterds.

And I couldn't really give a stuff about the Oscars.
Took the words out of my mouth, Andy but I must admit I watched the Oscars with my daughter. Pretty boring. I expected more of an uproar about The Cove - the dolphin killing documentary. The "Text DOHPIN 44144" sign was blocked out quickly. I liked the old days when stars used the Academy Awards to mouth off - was much more interesting. :P
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Bill
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Eddie Van Halen is a brilliant guitar player but his music doesn't move me. Likewise, some film school geeks or former comic book addicts can prattle on about how important a film on paper, but isn't going to make it more interesting on the screen.
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When someone says their opinion is the only one that matters or that it is the equal of anyone else's opinion on any subject, it always makes me feel like they are being somewhat pretentious and narrow-minded. I respect lots of thinkers and writers on art, film and music that have experienced more, know more and think more about these things than I do. I would feel very self-righteous claiming that my opinion on art is equal to any of the curators of the Smithsonian Museum on their own areas of expertise.
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Bill
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If someone who has studied these things tells me that Charlie Chaplin was an amazing innovator, then I will accept their technical knowledge but it doesn't mean I find his films funny, because I don't.

Equally, there are plenty of films that have masses of entertainment value but are not of cultural and technical significance.

If it floats your boat, good luck to you, but no amount of copying and pasting is going to make someone else like something more. Deal with it.
And I stand by my statement that Tarantino, given that what he mainly does is remake obscure 70s movies with bigger budgets, is overrated.

http://www.allmovie.com/work/96554
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0076584/
Edited by Bill, Mar 10 2010, 06:01 AM.
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You win!

Charlie Chaplin = not funny
Eddie Van Halen = musically inept
Quentin Tarantino = can't direct films
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beatlechick
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Lee, just because our more "pretentious, narrow-minded" opinions don't jive with your more learned opinion does not mean that you have to be so sadly sarcastic like that. We are all entitled to our opinions regardless of who or what we are. Just because some have the education to critique' does not make them any better than I or anyone else. I respect the word of my friends in their criticism of something than what some other person that gets paid to critique' says.

I remember when Die Hard first came out. It was widely panned by critics but loved by the public. Critics loved Titanic, I didn't. And the list goes on.

BTW, Bill said Van Halen is a brilliant guitarist just his music didn't move him.
Edited by beatlechick, Mar 10 2010, 06:26 AM.
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Bill
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That's okay, I think Lee has one of those monitors that displays completely different words to what people have actually typed. :P

I used Charlie Chaplin as an example of someone who was incredibly good in his day but simply doesn't translate into the modern era. And if we're going to play "My expert is better than your taste," then Rowan Atkinson agrees.

I'll happily admit that I was trying to start a debate by having a go at a sacred cow. I think Tarantino is overrated and I said why. If you disagree, fair enough, but tell me why YOU disagree, not why some nob at Rolling Clone disagrees.
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Bill
Mar 10 2010, 07:00 AM
That's okay, I think Lee has one of those monitors that displays completely different words to what people have actually typed. :P

I used Charlie Chaplin as an example of someone who was incredibly good in his day but simply doesn't translate into the modern era. And if we're going to play "My expert is better than your taste," then Rowan Atkinson agrees.

I'll happily admit that I was trying to start a debate by having a go at a sacred cow. I think Tarantino is overrated and I said why. If you disagree, fair enough, but tell me why YOU disagree, not why some nob at Rolling Clone disagrees.
Speaking of great movies that won nothing and didn't do all that well at the box office:
Mr. Bean's Holiday
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Anyone that doesn't laugh at Charlie Chaplin as 'The Tramp", can't appreciate Eddie Van Halen's version of 'You Really Got Me' and is not moved, one way or the other, by Quentin Tarantino's films, such as Reservoir Dogs, Pulp Fiction or Kill Bill, has a heart of stone and a mind of goo.
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LapisLee
Mar 9 2010, 08:13 PM
JeffLynnesBeard
Mar 9 2010, 06:21 PM
And?
I understand that it has already been made clear that music and film critics are not considered legitimate sources of objective qualitative information about art by some members of this forum, but I thought others might like to get an idea of why Kill Bill might not be for everyone, but is considered brilliant by others.
I see your point. However, to be honest, on a forum where people are talking to each other and expressing opinions, I'd value an opinion from the person I'm talking to on the forum rather than a random film critic. I don't believe that the professional critics' opinion is anything other than legitimate, but it would be equally easy to get an equally respected critic's opinion on why Kill Bill was overrated and emotionally stunted. Seems rather pointless - easier and more personal to share your own opinions about something rather than an article written by a professional, don't you think?
...and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
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Perhaps it would be best if copy and paste were banned for all purposes and just have people summarize or paraphrase what they read online? I thought it was a really good review, better than I could have expressed msyelf and I generally agree with Peter Traver's reviews on film and music. I don't have the time to compose reviews for online forums any longer since I am now being paid to do that elsewhere and my time is valuable.
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JeffLynnesBeard
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I believe it would be a ridiculous overreaction if copying and pasting articles was banned, although a link to the original article and source is preferable to a full copy & paste job anyway. Saves any foggy copyright issues. ;)
...and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
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I have no problem with that policy. I tend to to copy and paste too much anyway. So, do you think Eddie Van Halen is musically inept and Charlie Chaplin is no longer funny for modern audiences as Bill seems to think?
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BeatleBarb
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Lee, I don't think Bill said that. What I read was that Van Halen doesn't move him and that Chaplin doesn't make him laugh. The operative word being "him". Can't argue with that.
Edited by BeatleBarb, Mar 10 2010, 03:45 PM.
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BeatleBarb
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Has anyone seen any of these films? This is a list that Michael Moore sent in an email about the Oscars.


1. "Troubled Water" (see above)
2. "Everlasting Moments" - A wife in the early 20th century wins a camera and it changes her life (from Sweden).
3. "Captain Abu Raed" - This first feature from Jordan tells the story of an airport janitor who the neighborhood kids believe is a pilot.
4. "Che" - A brilliant, unexpected mega-film about Che Guevara by Steven Soderbergh.
5. "Dead Snow" - The scariest film I've seen in a while about zombie Nazis abandoned after World War II in desolate Norway.
6. "The Great Buck Howard" - A tender look at the life of an illusionist, based on the life of The Amazing Kreskin starring John Malkovich.
7. "In the Loop" - A rare hilarious satire, this one about the collusion between the Brits and the Americans and their illegal war pursuits.
8. "My One and Only" - Who woulda thought that a biopic based on one year in the life of George Hamilton when he was a teenager would turn out to be one of the year's most engaging films.
9. "Whatever Works" - This was a VERY good Woody Allen film starring the great Larry David and it was completely overlooked.
10. "Big Fan" - A funny, dark film about an obsessive fan of the New York Giants with a great performance by the comedian Patton Oswalt.
11. "Eden Is West" - The legendary Costa-Gavras' latest gem, ignored like his last brilliant film 4 years ago, "The Axe".
12. "Entre Nos" - An mother and child are left to fend for themselves in New York City in this powerful drama.
13. "The Girlfriend Experience" - Steven Soderbergh's second genius film of the year, this one set in the the post-Wall Street Crash era, a call girl services the men who brought the country down.
14. "Humpday" - Two straight guys dare each other to enter a gay porn contest -- but will they go through with it?
15. "Lemon Tree" - A Palestinian woman has her lemon trees cut down by the Israeli army, but she decides that's the final straw.
16. "Mary and Max" - An Australian girl and and elderly Jewish man in New York become pen pals in this very moving animated film.
17. "O'Horten" - Another Norwegian winner, this one about the final trip made by a retiring train conductor.
18. "Salt of This Sea" - A Palestinian-American returns to her family's home in the West Bank, only to find herself caught up in the struggles between the two cultures.
19. "Sugar" - A Dominican baseball player gets his one chance to come to America and make it in the big leagues.
20. "Fantastic Mr. Fox" - A smart, adult animated film from Wes Anderson that at least got two nominations from the Academy.
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BeatleBarb
Mar 10 2010, 03:32 PM
Lee, I don't think Bill said that. What I read was that Van Halen doesn't move him and that Chaplin doesn't make him laugh. The operative word being "him". Can't argue with that.
I still think the opinions of those who might actually be slightly better informed than Bill would be 'more equal' when discussing the films of Charlie Chaplin/Quentin Tarantino and the music of Eddie Van Halen. This discussion isn't about 'what Bill thinks or likes'. It's about whether or not professional art, music and film critics have any better understanding of their respective areas of expertise. I say 'Yes', because I am not going to propose that my opinions on those subjects that they have spent a lifetime analyzing is better than theirs. Of course, critics cover the entire spectrum of political and artistic biases, so not everyone will agree with every critic, but I think we can come to a general consensus among even the most slightly informed persons that Beethoven, Picasso and Frank Capra were 'pretty good' at what they did. Do you disagree?
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I do think they were pretty good at what they did, although I'm not a big lover of Beethoven. And yes, experts in any field surely have more knowledge on a particular subject, but when it comes to preference, you either like it or you don't.

I was just clarifying what I thought Bill was saying in response to what you were saying. Ok, I need more coffee...lol.
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Bill
Mar 9 2010, 11:00 PM
Pulp Fiction is great but I think on the whole, Tarantino is the Noel Gallagher of cinema. His talent is pinching from other movies and his genius is that he steals from movies that no-one else has seen. I guess there's a knack to it of course but what kind of genius does it take to make "Quentin's Mashup of 70s B-movies and Obscure Japanese Kung-Fu Flicks Volume 5"?

Get some new ideas.
Bill
Mar 9 2010, 11:00 PM
Eddie Van Halen is a brilliant guitar player but his music doesn't move me. Likewise, some film school geeks or former comic book addicts can prattle on about how important a film is on paper, but that isn't going to make it more interesting on the screen.
Bill
Mar 9 2010, 11:00 PM
If someone who has studied these things tells me that Charlie Chaplin was an amazing innovator, then I will accept their technical knowledge but it doesn't mean I find his films funny, because I don't.
Here is what Bill said. He is entitled to his opinion, but I think most film critics would disagree with him on Tarantino/Chaplin and most rock music fans and critics would disagree with him on Van Halen. I think reading film and music reviews are an important way of learning about new films and music that I might like.
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Look, we're all critics. We know what works so what does it matter what 1 person says about something when it is us,the non paid critic who pays for the product?
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Cleo
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Bill's personal taste is his personal taste, he doesn't have to like Chaplin and Van Halen just because the critics said so.

People should like what touch them and not what others tell them to like.

Disliking something is not denying something.

I don't like Van Halen it doesn't mean he is bad because I don't like him.
Edited by Cleo, Mar 10 2010, 05:04 PM.
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BeatleBarb
Mar 10 2010, 03:37 PM
Has anyone seen any of these films? This is a list that Michael Moore sent in an email about the Oscars.


1. "Troubled Water" (see above)
2. "Everlasting Moments" - A wife in the early 20th century wins a camera and it changes her life (from Sweden).
3. "Captain Abu Raed" - This first feature from Jordan tells the story of an airport janitor who the neighborhood kids believe is a pilot.
4. "Che" - A brilliant, unexpected mega-film about Che Guevara by Steven Soderbergh.
5. "Dead Snow" - The scariest film I've seen in a while about zombie Nazis abandoned after World War II in desolate Norway.
6. "The Great Buck Howard" - A tender look at the life of an illusionist, based on the life of The Amazing Kreskin starring John Malkovich.
7. "In the Loop" - A rare hilarious satire, this one about the collusion between the Brits and the Americans and their illegal war pursuits.
8. "My One and Only" - Who woulda thought that a biopic based on one year in the life of George Hamilton when he was a teenager would turn out to be one of the year's most engaging films.
9. "Whatever Works" - This was a VERY good Woody Allen film starring the great Larry David and it was completely overlooked.
10. "Big Fan" - A funny, dark film about an obsessive fan of the New York Giants with a great performance by the comedian Patton Oswalt.
11. "Eden Is West" - The legendary Costa-Gavras' latest gem, ignored like his last brilliant film 4 years ago, "The Axe".
12. "Entre Nos" - An mother and child are left to fend for themselves in New York City in this powerful drama.
13. "The Girlfriend Experience" - Steven Soderbergh's second genius film of the year, this one set in the the post-Wall Street Crash era, a call girl services the men who brought the country down.
14. "Humpday" - Two straight guys dare each other to enter a gay porn contest -- but will they go through with it?
15. "Lemon Tree" - A Palestinian woman has her lemon trees cut down by the Israeli army, but she decides that's the final straw.
16. "Mary and Max" - An Australian girl and and elderly Jewish man in New York become pen pals in this very moving animated film.
17. "O'Horten" - Another Norwegian winner, this one about the final trip made by a retiring train conductor.
18. "Salt of This Sea" - A Palestinian-American returns to her family's home in the West Bank, only to find herself caught up in the struggles between the two cultures.
19. "Sugar" - A Dominican baseball player gets his one chance to come to America and make it in the big leagues.
20. "Fantastic Mr. Fox" - A smart, adult animated film from Wes Anderson that at least got two nominations from the Academy.
I watched "Entre nos" and it was very touching. It's about a mother and a child from Colombia trying to survive in NYC, very heavy.

"Sugar" is predictable. We already saw it before.

"Che" is not brilliant but it is better than Avatar.

I am really tired of these World War II/Nazi movies.
Edited by Cleo, Mar 10 2010, 05:10 PM.
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Tarantino is a faker! =D
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beatlechick
Mar 10 2010, 04:57 PM
Look, we're all critics. We know what works so what does it matter what 1 person says about something when it is us, the non paid critic who pays for the product?
Let me try to break it down for you one more time. Is the opinion of someone with more information and experience more valuable than the opinion of someone who only knows what they like? Why would anyone ever bother to read a music or film review if your opinion is the only one that matters? Why would anyone ever hire an interior decorator or landscape consultant? We are not all equally skilled at art, film and music criticism and if you think that, then you are disrespecting those who have spent their lives perfecting their craft. Criticism is just as much of an art form as the art that is being critiqued.
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Lee, Bill didn't ask anyone to agree with him. I don't know what you're talking about. He just wrote that he is not moved by Van Halen songs. What's wrong with that?

Critics are frustrated people who wanted to be artists but can't create anything so they try to find something wrong with art. It's all about frustration, it's all about them.


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beatlechick
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Lee, obviously you're interpreting things the way you want to and not what is actually being said No one has said it isn't an art form and no one is saying that their opinion matters any more than what others say. What is being said is, our opinions do matter and we don't shape ourselves to listening the so-called pros are saying. We all have ouir own tastes. I can appreciate what is being said but I don't follow it.
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I am just trying to say that there is a significant difference between stating what you like and reading a music or film review by a knowledgeable professional critic. Why would so many people read and post reviews on Amazon if the only thing that mattered was what they already knew they liked? The reason is because some people are better positioned through their experience and knowledge with a particular product and that product could just as easily be a movie, a music album or a work of literature as a stereo, a sleeping bag or a laundry detergent. You simply cannot hold an expert opinion on every single thing in the known universe, which is why there are experts in every field of human endeavor including art, music and film.

Can we please get back to discussing McCartney's set list and why our opinions of his song choices matter more than his own?
:P
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Seems like your covering your tracks now. The reviews on Amazon are not paid reviewers. They are people who have the particular product you're interested in. If there were, however, no reviews on that product would you take the chance?
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My point is that whether paid or not, an expert opinion from a knowledgeable source is more valuable than the opinion of someone who only knows what they like. I can check and see how many reviews someone has written on Amazon and check their ratings, which in effect, makes them a 'professional', because people are purchasing products based on their expert opinions. You would be an expert on Paul McCartney recordings, videos and live performances to a certain extent, although you are not paid to do so; however, I would not consider you an expert critic of Quentin Tarantino films because you have expressed the opinion that you do not care for them. Someone who has faithfully and objectively written reviews of many Quentin Tarantino films, as well as the films he borrows from in the making of his own, would be a much more reliable source than someone who has not seen them, does not like them and knows very little about the films or the film-maker.
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DCBeatle64
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Many reviews you get by professionals can be written by someone who is not keen on an actor/ musician and so on and I have seen that many times and it has often just been very balanced
I'm a BIGGER Beatles fan than you and I'm an even BIGGER Wings fan than that...
'You're a Paul McCartney fan? No you're a Wings fan'. 'Thankyou Scotland' Ho Hey Ho...
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Exactly! If they truly know the artist and are objective in their criticism then their advice can save you $18 from buying the CD or DVD. This is precisely why I rely on professional reviews posted online and elsewhere for information about music and films that I have not yet seen, as opposed to just assuming that my own opinion is adequate for separating the wheat from the chaff. I have not seen Grindhouse (2007) yet, but based on reviews I have little interest. Jackie Brown (1997) may very well be underrated. Most critics consider Reservoir Dogs (1992), Pulp Fiction (1999) and Kill Bill (2003-04) to be certified masterpieces in their genre. Inglourious b*stards (2009) is also quite good, in my unprofessional opinion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grindhouse_(film)

His films have earned him an Academy Award, Golden Globe, BAFTA and Palme d'Or Awards and he has been nominated for Emmy and Grammy Awards. In 2007, Total Film named him the 12th-greatest director of all time.
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Bill
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LapisLee
Mar 10 2010, 02:43 PM
Anyone that doesn't laugh at Charlie Chaplin as 'The Tramp", can't appreciate Eddie Van Halen's version of 'You Really Got Me' and is not moved, one way or the other, by Quentin Tarantino's films, such as Reservoir Dogs, Pulp Fiction or Kill Bill, has a heart of stone and a mind of goo.
I was hoping for a reasoned discussion, but if personal abuse is as close as you can get, whatever! :roll:
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DCBeatle64
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I take more advice from my friends or people who have like minded opinions as me because esentially they are more likely to know what I am in to. So if certain friends of mine say they hate a film...I know I'll love it
I'm a BIGGER Beatles fan than you and I'm an even BIGGER Wings fan than that...
'You're a Paul McCartney fan? No you're a Wings fan'. 'Thankyou Scotland' Ho Hey Ho...
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Bill
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LapisLee
Mar 10 2010, 04:32 PM
Bill
Mar 9 2010, 11:00 PM
Pulp Fiction is great but I think on the whole, Tarantino is the Noel Gallagher of cinema. His talent is pinching from other movies and his genius is that he steals from movies that no-one else has seen. I guess there's a knack to it of course but what kind of genius does it take to make "Quentin's Mashup of 70s B-movies and Obscure Japanese Kung-Fu Flicks Volume 5"?

Get some new ideas.
Bill
Mar 9 2010, 11:00 PM
Eddie Van Halen is a brilliant guitar player but his music doesn't move me. Likewise, some film school geeks or former comic book addicts can prattle on about how important a film is on paper, but that isn't going to make it more interesting on the screen.
Bill
Mar 9 2010, 11:00 PM
If someone who has studied these things tells me that Charlie Chaplin was an amazing innovator, then I will accept their technical knowledge but it doesn't mean I find his films funny, because I don't.
Here is what Bill said. He is entitled to his opinion, but I think most film critics would disagree with him on Tarantino/Chaplin and most rock music fans and critics would disagree with him on Van Halen. I think reading film and music reviews are an important way of learning about new films and music that I might like.
Wow, and I thought you said you were too busy.

Most critics might disagree with me. When we have discussion about what film critics think, instead of what we as individuals think, then you'll have me over a barrell. But it seems to me that you're going to an awful lot of trouble trying to avoid offering a view of your own, while harassing and abusing those who have come to a personal point of view independently.

Of course reading reviews is interesting, but they can't make a film entertaining if you happen to not like it. Or are you saying that if you saw a film you didn't enjoy, and then read a review saying it was good, you would realise you were wrong and find it far more enjoyable in retrospect?

Feel free to answer in the form of a pasted Wikipedia article a mile long. :yawn:

I'll put my knowledge of guitar playing up against anyone's. That's why I made the analogy.

Dig UP! :lol:
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Yes, I found Citizen Kane to be interminably boring and long-winded until I read the criticism analyzing the film in detail. The scholarly articles gave me a new-found respect for both Citizen Kane and Orson Wells. The same is true for many of Alfred Hitchcock's early masterpieces. If you read some critical analysis of his techniques, then you gain a much broader perspective of what he accomplished as a filmmaker.
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Bill
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I enjoyed Citizen Kane and all I had read about it previously was a Peanuts cartoon.

However, there's a hole in the plot big enough to drive a truck through. It shows something of Welles' skill as a storyteller that is actually doesn't take away from the film.

I think it's rather sad though, that you have to be told what to enjoy. Quality should be self-evident.
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LapisLee
Mar 10 2010, 09:47 PM
Yes, I found Citizen Kane to be interminably boring and long-winded until I read the criticism analyzing the film in detail. The scholarly articles gave me a new-found respect for both Citizen Kane and Orson Wells. The same is true for many of Alfred Hitchcock's early masterpieces. If you read some critical analysis of his techniques, then you gain a much broader perspective of what he accomplished as a filmmaker.
Here's an analogy of what the Academy Awards are. You're saying you had to have something explained to you before you enjoyed the Citizen Kane and Alfred Hitchcock movies. I submit that these movies might be brilliant on some level but fail to touch some people like Van Halen fails to touch some people. A movie can be, and many movies have been, considered a great piece of art by some group like the Academy but never connect with an audience and hence never sell many tickets. I don't think the average person cares whether something won an award. They care whether they will be entertained enough to part with their ticket money. Reviews help some but, I think, should also be taken with a grain of salt.
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By that reasoning Avatar is the greatest movie of all time and Titanic is second. I like both of those movies but there are lots more movies that won few or no awards and did poorly at the Box Office that I would never have known about if I had not read about them in some online review, like Pan's Labyrinth, Sideways, Persepolis, Lost In Translation, Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind, Ghost World, Capote, Y Tu Mamá También, Traffic, Ponyo, Flight of the Red Balloon and Knocked Up. Those are just from the past ten years.
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LapisLee
Mar 10 2010, 10:16 PM
By that reasoning Avatar is the greatest movie of all time and Titanic is second. I like both of those movies but there are lots more movies that won few or no awards and did poorly at the Box Office that I would never have known about if I had not read about them in some online review, like Pan's Labyrinth, Sideways, Persepolis, Lost In Translation, Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind, Ghost World, Capote, Y Tu Mamá También, Traffic, Ponyo, Flight of the Red Balloon and Knocked Up. Those are just from the past ten years.
Ok. And I have stumbled across other gems that I saw anything written about or marketed as well as some stinkers. One thing for sure is not every movie has a marketing budget or comes at the right time to make it into the public's perception or finds its way into a critic's musings.
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LapisLee
Mar 10 2010, 10:16 PM
By that reasoning Avatar is the greatest movie of all time and Titanic is second. I like both of those movies but there are lots more movies that won few or no awards and did poorly at the Box Office that I would never have known about if I had not read about them in some online review, like Pan's Labyrinth, Sideways, Persepolis, Lost In Translation, Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind, Ghost World, Capote, Y Tu Mamá También, Traffic, Ponyo, Flight of the Red Balloon and Knocked Up. Those are just from the past ten years.
Many of the movies you mentioned I either saw because I was interested, ad or word of mouth, or were something that friends wanted to see. I didn't like all of what I saw, like Lost in Translation (since you think that I said I didn't like Tarantino since I said I didn't like Kill Bill-btw I thought #2 was better but fell asleep and didn't care if I saw the rest p-you'll probably say I don't like Bill Murray movies), didn't care about seeing Ponyo, loved and have Y Tu Mama' Tambien as well as Knocked Up. I don't go by reviews by professional people. Not in print or anywhere else. I will read them but, like Ron said, take them with a grain of salt.

I really don't like Titanic but love the beauty of Avatar. I love to rent slasher movies, horror and sci-fi are my favorite genres. I have loved, since childhood, Hitchcock flicks and have many of them. I love thrillers and whodunits. I love stuff that forces you to use your imagination, always have since childhood.

BTW, Traffic won best supporting actor, directing, and screenplay and, as I recall, did pretty well in box office and video sales. The movie Sideways was filmed just a few miles away from me so there was huge word of mouth before the movie came out and after.
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LapisLee
Mar 10 2010, 05:13 PM
beatlechick
Mar 10 2010, 04:57 PM
Look, we're all critics. We know what works so what does it matter what 1 person says about something when it is us, the non paid critic who pays for the product?
Let me try to break it down for you one more time. Is the opinion of someone with more information and experience more valuable than the opinion of someone who only knows what they like? Why would anyone ever bother to read a music or film review if your opinion is the only one that matters? Why would anyone ever hire an interior decorator or landscape consultant? We are not all equally skilled at art, film and music criticism and if you think that, then you are disrespecting those who have spent their lives perfecting their craft. Criticism is just as much of an art form as the art that is being critiqued.
I've been on this planet for 34 years. I have thousands of albums and have attended hundreds of concerts.

Do I generally respect the opinion of people who make their living from criticism? Yes.

Do I think they have a more informed opinion that I do and therefore a better and more valued opinion? No.

As for criticism itself being an art form - don't make me laugh (and that's from someone who has spent a lot of his time writing reviews!)! Most music critics are failed musicians. It's most definitely secondary.
...and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
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Bill
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Reviews exist primarily to let people know what to expect. If you're looking for a moving experience that reveals a lot about the human condition, it's probably best to give Adam Sandler a miss. If you want lots of effects and explosions, something by Woody Allen is probably not the best choice. Avatar has all the "whoa, cool!" effects, but does it have a story to match? Many people say no. I won't comment until I've seen it. The reviews have lowered my expectations but I'm not going to say it's a good or a bad film until I have my own reasons for holding an opinion one way or another.
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Bill, Avatar IMHO is visually stunning but the story is nothing we haven't seen before. It is well worth seeing, though.
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Can you say "dog with a bone"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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JeffLynnesBeard
Mar 11 2010, 01:30 AM
LapisLee
Mar 10 2010, 05:13 PM
beatlechick
Mar 10 2010, 04:57 PM
Look, we're all critics. We know what works so what does it matter what 1 person says about something when it is us, the non paid critic who pays for the product?
Let me try to break it down for you one more time. Is the opinion of someone with more information and experience more valuable than the opinion of someone who only knows what they like? Why would anyone ever bother to read a music or film review if your opinion is the only one that matters? Why would anyone ever hire an interior decorator or landscape consultant? We are not all equally skilled at art, film and music criticism and if you think that, then you are disrespecting those who have spent their lives perfecting their craft. Criticism is just as much of an art form as the art that is being critiqued.
I've been on this planet for 34 years. I have thousands of albums and have attended hundreds of concerts.

Do I generally respect the opinion of people who make their living from criticism? Yes.

Do I think they have a more informed opinion that I do and therefore a better and more valued opinion? No.

As for criticism itself being an art form - don't make me laugh (and that's from someone who has spent a lot of his time writing reviews!)! Most music critics are failed musicians. It's most definitely secondary.
You have 1000's of albums and have attended hundreds of concerts and have written dozens of reviews. It is disingenuous to compare yourself with the millions of people who are less experienced, musically speaking. For me, writing is an art form, even literary or film criticism. People go to universities and get advanced degrees studying art, film and music criticism and it is serious, important work that should be held in high esteem, when done thoughtfully and artfully, such as many of the reviews I have read that were written by you.
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BeatleBarb
Mar 11 2010, 02:31 AM
Can you say "dog with a bone"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Woof, grrrrrr, woof!!!!!
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