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| Are You A Vegetarian?; Another Animal Rights Discussion | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Dec 21 2008, 05:07 AM (1,122 Views) | |
| Deleted User | Dec 21 2008, 05:07 AM Post #1 |
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Just curious how the forum membership breaks down on this issue. The general consensus is that about 4-5% of the US population are vegetarians and about 0.2% are vegans. I would assume our numbers are higher here. |
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| Deleted User | Dec 21 2008, 05:10 AM Post #2 |
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I am not vegetarian but I don't eat meat of any kind. |
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| Bill | Dec 21 2008, 05:19 AM Post #3 |
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Strawberry Fields Vegetarians; Members who are vegetarian or vegan Please PM me or any other moderator you're a vegetarian/vegan (specify which) and you want to be added to the SF vegetarians list. ![]() Vegetarians are those who do not eat any beef, pork, poultry, fish or any other animals... the famous rule is that you're a vegetarian if you don't eat 'anything with a face', but as there are many sea creatures who arguably don't have faces, this definition isn't exhaustive! Vegetarians also do not consume things which contain animal fat, glycerine (animal-derived), animal-derived colourants or any indeed product made from animal origins. Vegans are vegetarians who additionally don't consume animal by-products such as eggs, honey or dairy. So if you fit one of those categories and want to be known as a Strawberry Fields Vegetarian or Vegan, then send us a PM - and if you're not a vegetarian but are interested in vegetarianism, then you know who to talk to. ![]() Strawberry Fields Vegetarians & Vegans v = Vegan bec_walker (Bec) v DCBeatle64 (Dani) dirtyoldsod (Heather) FamousGroupie (Clare) iscreamer1 (Irene) JanaW (Jana) JeffLynnesBeard (Andy) Kit_Kat (Nat) ~LovelyRita~ (Grace) MaccaByrd (Fiona) maccascruff (Linda) MannyDavvi (Manuel) retrollama (Lisa) scottycatt (Beverly) |
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| Bill | Dec 21 2008, 05:21 AM Post #4 |
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Of course, normally I'd just post the link and assume people are smart enough to click it, but apparently we have to "force" people to read these things.
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| maccascruff | Dec 21 2008, 05:44 AM Post #5 |
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Sing the Changes
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I don't need to respond to the poll. Been there and done that. Besides the wording is wrong. I don't think you understand what a vegetarian eats. There are different types of vegetarians--not but I also eat ....
Edited by maccascruff, Dec 21 2008, 05:45 AM.
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| Deleted User | Dec 21 2008, 06:41 AM Post #6 |
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You copy and paster! I am shocked, shocked.
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| Deleted User | Dec 21 2008, 06:45 AM Post #7 |
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Please post the definition of a vegetarian and what they eat. Here is what I was going by. Terminology and varieties of vegetarianism Foods in the main vegetarian diets Diet Name/Meat, Poultry, Fish/Eggs/ Dairy/Honey Lacto-ovo vegetarianism No Yes Yes Yes Lacto vegetarianism No No Yes Yes Ovo vegetarianism No Yes No Yes Veganism No No No No Other dietary practices commonly associated with vegetarianism: Fruitarianism is a diet of only fruit, nuts, seeds, and other plant matter that can be gathered without harming the plant. Su vegetarianism originating in Buddhism, excludes all animal products as well as the fetid vegetables: onion, garlic, scallions, leeks, or shallots. Macrobiotic diet is a diet of mostly whole grains and beans. Not all macrobiotics are vegetarians, as some consume fish. Raw veganism is a diet of fresh and uncooked fruit, nuts, seeds, and vegetables. Dietary veganism: whereas vegans do not use animal products of any kind, dietary vegans restrict their veganism to their diet. Some vegetarians also avoid products that may use animal ingredients not included in their labels or which use animal products in their manufacturing i.e. cheeses that use animal rennet, gelatin (from animal skin, bones, and connective tissue), some sugars that are whitened with bone char (e.g. cane sugar, but not beet sugar) and alcohol clarified with gelatin or crushed shellfish and sturgeon. Vegetarians who eat eggs sometimes prefer free-range eggs (as opposed to battery farmed eggs) on moral grounds. Semi-vegetarian diets Semi-vegetarian diets are diets that primarily consist of vegetarian foods, but make exceptions for some non-vegetarian foods. These diets may be followed by those who choose to reduce the amount of animal flesh consumed, or sometimes as a way of transitioning to a vegetarian diet. These terms are neologisms based on the word "vegetarian". They may be regarded with contention by some strict vegetarians, as they combine terms for vegetarian and non-vegetarian diets. Additionally, many individuals describe themselves as simply "vegetarian" while actually practicing a semi-vegetarian diet. Semi-vegetarianism — A diet that excludes certain meats, particularly red meat, but allows the consumption of others in limited amounts. Pescetarianism — A diet that excludes all meat except fish, shellfish, and crustacea. Pollotarianism — A diet that excludes all meat except poultry and fowl. Flexitarianism — A diet that consists primarily of vegetarian food, but that allows occasional exceptions. |
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| Bill | Dec 21 2008, 07:38 AM Post #8 |
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Unless chickens and fish are vegetables and not animals, then no-one who eats them can claim to be a vegetarian. |
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| JeffLynnesBeard | Dec 21 2008, 08:03 AM Post #9 |
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I'm a Lacto-Ovo Vegetarian... but I've cut down a lot on the lacto. People who call themselves vegetarians are usually Lacto-Ovo Vegetarians. People who don't eat eggs or dairy are Vegans. Any other "kinds" of vegetarians, such as those who eat fish or chicken are simply not vegetarians and will usually get an earful from a vegetarian if they attempt to call themselves one. Also, I'm a Lacto-Ovo Vegetarian who does not buy leather or fur. That principle is certainly not limited to Vegans.
Edited by JeffLynnesBeard, Dec 21 2008, 08:04 AM.
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| ...and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make. | |
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| Deleted User | Dec 21 2008, 08:05 AM Post #10 |
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Are eggs, cheese and honey vegetables? |
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| JeffLynnesBeard | Dec 21 2008, 08:09 AM Post #11 |
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They're not meat, though, are they - whereas chicken and fish are. |
| ...and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make. | |
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| Bill | Dec 21 2008, 08:22 AM Post #12 |
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Are they animals? veg⋅e⋅tar⋅i⋅an /ˌvɛdʒɪˈtɛəriən/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [vej-i-tair-ee-uhn] Show IPA Pronunciation –noun 1. a person who does not eat or does not believe in eating meat, fish, fowl, or, in some cases, any food derived from animals, as eggs or cheese, but subsists on vegetables, fruits, nuts, grain, etc. –adjective 2. of or pertaining to vegetarianism or vegetarians. 3. devoted to or advocating this practice. 4. consisting solely of vegetables: vegetarian vegetable soup. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/vegetarian |
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| kink | Dec 21 2008, 12:15 PM Post #13 |
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on again, off again
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If it's on wikipedia, it's bloody true! Well I was expecting this argument to come up. It's quite obvious that if you eat animals you can't be vegetarian, hm? Semi-vegetarianism sounds as funny as semi-gay. You either are, or you aren't. Anyway, to respond to the poll, yes I am a vegetarian, that means I don't eat animals, chickens included! I don't buy leather or fur either. I tried the vegan thing for a while, but it messed up my metabolism, so I stopped. |
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Strawberry Fields: We put the FUN in dysfunctional. -BeatleBarb, 2007 | |
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| Jacaranda | Dec 21 2008, 02:17 PM Post #14 |
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I am not a vegetarian, but I have drastically cut back my consumption of meat, eggs and dairy, and have tried to up my vegetable/fruit consumption. |
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| A day in the life | Dec 21 2008, 05:28 PM Post #15 |
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No. As for the fish thing, I know several languages where fish is not labelled as meat, but as its own category. Then there's the tradition of 'meat-free' Fridays being the day to eat fish in certain circles, so I think that may be where this idea of separation originated from. Still, though- no doubt about it- vegetarians don't eat animals. |
| We all wanna change the world. | |
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| A day in the life | Dec 21 2008, 05:29 PM Post #16 |
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What do you mean? |
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| Deleted User | Dec 21 2008, 06:16 PM Post #17 |
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Are you making the argument that only vegans are true vegetarians? |
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| maccascruff | Dec 21 2008, 06:55 PM Post #18 |
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Sing the Changes
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I do not eat meat. I get really, really tired of explaining over and over that does not include either chicken or fish. I do eat eggs, cheese and milk. Went to a party last night and they snuck some chicken in a dish they told me was veggie. I figured it out after one bite.
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| Deleted User | Dec 21 2008, 07:07 PM Post #19 |
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I wouldn't respect anyone that ate chicken and fish and claimed that they were a vegetarian, but I also think that you can be a vegetarian without being a vegan. I would like to be a Pescatarian, which I know sounds like a cop-out, but everyone has their weaknesses. I don't really eat eggs or dairy except for cheese. |
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| Deleted User | Dec 21 2008, 08:04 PM Post #20 |
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I don't eat meat because I don't like it, the taste. Does it make me a vegetarian? If vegetarian is a person who doesn't eat meat for any reason, maybe I am. |
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| ohnotjimagain | Dec 21 2008, 08:28 PM Post #21 |
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I'm no vegetarian. I like my meat too much.
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| Deleted User | Dec 21 2008, 08:40 PM Post #22 |
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Quickly! Get the pitchforks and I will get the tar and feathers!
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| Mark Stephen Baker | Dec 21 2008, 10:57 PM Post #23 |
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I don't think the reason for not eating meat matters, if you don't eat meat then you must be veggie. My rabbits are vegetarian but I doubt it is beacause of any deeply held covictions for animal wellfare that they hold. |
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| Bill | Dec 22 2008, 12:48 AM Post #24 |
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Oh for pity's sake Lee, stop turning everything into a university bar argument. Did I say anything about vegans? No. I said nothing of the sort. I simply posted the definition from an actual reference site. If you still can't figure out what that means then there's nothing I can do to help you. |
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| Monkey Chow | Dec 22 2008, 01:06 AM Post #25 |
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beep beep m beep beep yeah
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No, I'm an omnivore. |
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| Mia Culpa | Dec 22 2008, 03:29 AM Post #26 |
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I once asked my rabbi if we're supposed to only eat kosher and men are pigs, is oral sex out? |
| If you read my posts backward there's evidence that Paul is dead. | |
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| Deleted User | Dec 22 2008, 04:49 AM Post #27 |
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Did this give anyone else the impression that Bill thought that only vegans were vegetarians or was it just me? |
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| FamousGroupie | Dec 22 2008, 04:58 AM Post #28 |
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You're on your own with this one Lee. Bill made no reference to vegans, he merely posted a dictionary definition of 'vegetarian'. The definition was that
Please note in some cases. So Bill wasn't pointing out the difference. The dictionary was. |
| I don't believe in Bondi. I don't believe in rugby league. I believe in Yoko, John Lennon, the Lost Weekend and me. | |
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| FamousGroupie | Dec 22 2008, 05:01 AM Post #29 |
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Oh, and yes - I am a lacto-ovo vegetarian. I thought that after my gastric surgery, I would have to start eating animal flesh again after sixteen years, but my doctor has said that didn't matter, and that it would be better if I didn't. Fine with me! I don't wear or purchase leather or fur, and I have free-range eggs from my mother's chickens. I don't eat cheese, but I do drink milk. Seventeen years behind the bell and proud of it! |
| I don't believe in Bondi. I don't believe in rugby league. I believe in Yoko, John Lennon, the Lost Weekend and me. | |
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| Deleted User | Dec 22 2008, 05:06 AM Post #30 |
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Good point. I somehow got the impression that he was proposing that vegetarians only ate vegetables, and eggs, cheese and honey are not vegetables. By the way, did anyone else realize that sponges and corals are both animals? |
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| FamousGroupie | Dec 22 2008, 05:15 AM Post #31 |
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No, but they're also not animal flesh, which is the point. They may be animal derived products, but you generally don't have to harm the animal to get them. |
| I don't believe in Bondi. I don't believe in rugby league. I believe in Yoko, John Lennon, the Lost Weekend and me. | |
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| Deleted User | Dec 22 2008, 05:30 AM Post #32 |
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Do you think vegetarian is somewhat of a misnomer? vegetarian 1. a person who eats no meat, and sometimes no animal products (as milk or eggs); esp., one who advocates a diet of only vegetables, fruits, grains, and nuts as the proper one for all people for reasons of health or because of principles opposing the killing of animals Etymology: veget(able) + -arian vegetable 1. any plant whose fruit, seeds, roots, tubers, bulbs, stems, leaves, or flower parts are used as food, as the tomato, bean, beet, potato, onion, asparagus, spinach, or cauliflower. 2. the edible part of such a plant, as the tuber of the potato. 3. any member of the vegetable kingdom; plant. Origin: 1350-1400; ME (adj.) < LL vegetibilis able to live and grow, equiv. to vegeti(re) to quicken + -bilis -ble The term vegetarian appeared around 1840. It was first formally used on September 30th of 1847 by Joseph Brotherton and others, at Northwood Villa in Kent, England. The occasion being the innaugural meeting of the Vegetarian Society of the United Kingdom. Prior to 1847, non-meat eaters were often known as 'Pythagoreans' or adherents of the 'Pythagorean System', after the ancient Greek 'vegetarian' Pythagoras. The original definition of 'vegetarian' was "with or without eggs or dairy products" and that definition is still used by the Vegetarian Society today. However, most vegetarians in India exclude eggs from their diet as did those in the classical Mediterranean lands, such as Pythagoras. |
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| FamousGroupie | Dec 22 2008, 05:37 AM Post #33 |
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There's one word in your definition that shoots your whole argument down Lee
Sometimes. Not be all and end all.
With or without dairy and eggs. It doesn't matter, you can still call yourself a vegetarian by VS standards. |
| I don't believe in Bondi. I don't believe in rugby league. I believe in Yoko, John Lennon, the Lost Weekend and me. | |
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| Deleted User | Dec 22 2008, 05:47 AM Post #34 |
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My argument is that vegetarians can eat eggs, dairy and honey, but I am questioning the vegan (PETA) argument that only vegans are true vegetarians, which I had thought Bill was asserting above. Vegetarian: For the purpose of membership of International Vegetarian Union (IVU), vegetarianism includes veganism and is defined as the practice of not eating meat, poultry or fish or their by-products, with or without the use of dairy products or eggs. |
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| JeffLynnesBeard | Dec 22 2008, 06:02 AM Post #35 |
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There are very good reasons why strict vegans don't consider vegetarians to be true bretheren. Mass-produced milk production is undeniably cruel. Calves are torn away from their mothers directly after birth and then the milk which should have been used to feed their babies goes to feeding us. The males calves are often used in the veal industry, the female calves are eventually used for breeding, milk production and/or meat. Any vegetarian (including myself) who eats dairy products is indirectly supporting the meat and veal industry. There are other, I would say minor, objections about people eating eggs, but the above is the main reason strict, passionate vegans find it difficult to really respect people who are merely vegetarian. |
| ...and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make. | |
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| Deleted User | Dec 22 2008, 06:22 AM Post #36 |
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In spite of all the very good reasons, some of which you point out above, I don't think I will ever be able to join the Vegan Elite and look down condescendingly on plain old 'garden variety' vegetarians that eat eggs, dairy, honey and other animal by-products. To show you how pathetic I am, I am just looking for a good vegetarian substitute for my daily sandwich of deli-sliced oven roasted turkey (bad!), cheese (not quite as bad) and mustard on whole wheat. Here is the economic breakdown, which, for me, is crucial. Any suggestions, other than peanut butter and jelly, would be appreciated. 1 loaf whole wheat bread (24 slices) $1 1/2 pound deli meat $3 1/2 pound deli cheese $3 Total for 12 sandwiches = $7 or $0.58 per sandwich Sometimes I add Tostito or Santita chips 16 ounces $2 12 servings = $0.17 per serving I wonder how much it would cost to make my own hummus and spread it on pita bread with alfalfa sprouts? I used to eat that back in college when I was a vegetarian for about two years. I just found this website: Almost Vegetarian TryVeg.com has a list of money-saving tips, from "plan your meals in advance" to "pack a lunch." Personally speaking, we do these, and I do notice that the planned meals and packed lunches are not only cheaper, but tend to be healthier, too. But, even better, the site also has a list of suggested meals. Breakfast cereal with soy or rice milk oatmeal with cinnamon and maple syrup fruit smoothie tofu scramble and soy sausage toast with peanut butter soy yogurt with raisins Lunch veggie burger falafel wrap with lemon tahini dressing mock meat sub / hoagie spinach salad with walnuts cajun-style beans and rice veggie chili with mixed green salad Dinner vegetable stir fry over rice spaghetti with mock meatballs vegetable stew with sourdough bread BBQ tofu with corn on the cob black bean burrito vegetable lasagne with mock ground beef Snacks fresh fruit mixed nuts energy bar soy or rice milk smoothie baked pita wedges with hummus chips with salsa |
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| Bill | Dec 22 2008, 11:01 AM Post #37 |
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My purpose in posting the dictionary definition of Vegetarian was twofold. Firstly, I wanted to post a clear and concise definition of the word. Secondly, I wanted to take it from a recognised reference source, not from a site where the answer is whatever the author wants it to be. To give Wikipedia their due, they are much more cautious about fairness and accuracy than they used to be, but we still have no idea who wrote that article, what their authority is or what their agenda (if any) may be. To be fair, we don't know who wrote the dictionary definition either, but we do know that it is someone who is employed to be an authority on the meanings of words. Dictionaries need to be credible. Wikipedia, for all its usefulness, remains a social experiment. However, my post also had the unintended effect of illustrating how confusing, and slightly annoying, it can be when someone pastes in an article without any commentary of their own to explain the point they are making or their motivation for doing so. ![]() Now, we can then argue the toss over whether "vegetarian" is an appropriate word to describe those who do eat things that are not actually vegetables. Fine. Point taken. But so what? The more important point is that vegetarians do NOT consume anything that is made from dead animals. I concede that I probably made too much of the derivation of the word but I still think it's fairly clear that my point was that birds and fish are still animals, like cattle. Anyone who claims one can call oneself a vegetarian while still eating fish or poultry, does not know what they're talking about. The dictionary definition of the word confirms this. It would be like someone claiming to be teetotal if they only drank beer and wine but not whiskey. (Although teetotallers may drink beverages other than tea) Quite simply, if you eat animal flesh (among other things), you're an omnivore. If you eat no animal flesh, but don't necessarily exclude eggs or dairy, you're a vegetarian. If you strictly avoid all animal product, you're a vegan. That's what the dictionary says and it's what Andy said on the list of vegetarians. I see no point in confusing the issue with talk of lacto-ovo-pseudo-quasi-macro-vegetarians. I'm not aware of anyone on any side of the debate who claims that vegans are the "real" vegetarians. Obviously veganism encompasses vegetarianism but they are two different sets of principles, hence the different names. |
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| Monkey Chow | Dec 22 2008, 12:41 PM Post #38 |
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beep beep m beep beep yeah
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Glad my wife's not Jewish, then. |
| Everybody's got something to hide 'cept for me and my monkey. | |
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| Reverend Dave | Dec 22 2008, 05:25 PM Post #39 |
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I've been a vegetarian since April 2007 when a wonderfully eccentric penguin-loving young woman sat me down and scared the steak right out of me. I eat eggs, but they're very free-range around here. I mean very free-range. I find chickens on my back door from time to time. I never really liked milk and stopped drinking it long before it became poisonous. I don't think I own any leather products. Even if I didn't mind killing the cows it's just too expensive. Silk is very cheap here, but I don't think I have anything made of silk either. |
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With great power comes great responsibility. With great age.... What was I going to say? | |
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| Deleted User | Dec 22 2008, 05:53 PM Post #40 |
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There aren't really any ramifications for vegetarians as to whether the eggs they eat are free-range or factory farmed, unless they are vegans. That is more of an animal welfare issue. I think the primary difference between vegetarians and vegans are that vegetarians are more interested in a strictly dietary approach, while vegans expand their vegetarianism to a more ethical and political approach. I still own two leather coats, four leather belts and possibly a pair of leather shoes, but I could give up all of those easily if I was a vegetarian and wanted to show even more compliance with the ethical and political side of animal rights. |
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| Deleted User | Dec 22 2008, 05:56 PM Post #41 |
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So you are asserting that PETA does not advocate a vegan diet as opposed to a vegetarian diet that includes eggs, dairy and honey or are you saying that you are unaware of PETA's stance on this issue? I would correct you and say that vegetarianism encompasses veganism, not the other way around. |
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| Kit_Kat | Dec 22 2008, 06:08 PM Post #42 |
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I'm a vegetarian, have been since I was 4. Lennon's a vegetarian too |
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| Deleted User | Dec 22 2008, 06:14 PM Post #43 |
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I guess that I am a cannibal because there are several vegetarians that I would eat.
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| Deleted User | Dec 22 2008, 06:16 PM Post #44 |
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If you eat a vegetarian you're a cannibal veggie. |
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| Deleted User | Dec 22 2008, 06:20 PM Post #45 |
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Sweetie, I am adding you to the menu straight away!
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| Deleted User | Dec 22 2008, 06:22 PM Post #46 |
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I'm the cannibal here.
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| JeffLynnesBeard | Dec 22 2008, 08:28 PM Post #47 |
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With all respect, that's basically untrue. While I haven't conducted any poll to back this assertion up, I can confidently say that the vast majority of vegetarians are so because of ethical reasons and those very same people aren't vegans because of the strict dietry restrictions cutting out eggs and dairy would give them. Most people, who are vegetarians, would most certainly buy the most cruelty-free product available and would not use substances such as leather. I wouldn't dream of buying any eggs which were not free-range and have actively campaigned for producers, such as Ben & Jerry's, to change the eggs they use from "factory farmed" to free-range. The only 'ramifications' there are for any vegetarian or vegan is their own conscience. I respect people who are vegan and put their money where their mouth is, but enjoying the food I eat is important to me - and my principles are based around animals not dying or being subjected to cruelty for my eating pleasure. |
| ...and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make. | |
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| Deleted User | Dec 22 2008, 08:51 PM Post #48 |
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So without any supporting evidence you claim that ethics is the primary reason people choose vegetarianism over these other reasons: morality, religion, culture, aesthetics, environment, society, economy, politics, taste, and health? I would guess that health and food safety issues would be the primary reasons followed by ethics or morality. I believe Love Sculpture gave her reason as taste. For me it's health followed by food safety and ethical reasons. Health A to Z Several factors contribute to the interest in vegetarianism in America. Outbreaks of food poisoning from meat products, as well as increased concern over the additives in meat such as hormones and antibiotics, have led some people and professionals to question meat's safety. There is also an increased awareness of the questionable treatment of farm animals in factory farming. But the growing health consciousness of Americans is probably the major reason for the surge in interest in vegetarianism. Vegetarian Times Study Shows 7.3 Million Americans Are Vegetarians Additional 22.8 Million Follow a Vegetarian-Inclined Diet The just-released “Vegetarianism in America” study, published by Vegetarian Times (vegetariantimes.com), shows that 3.2 percent of U.S. adults, or 7.3 million people, follow a vegetarian-based diet. Approximately 0.5 percent, or 1 million, of those are vegans, who consume no animal products at all. In addition, 10 percent of U.S., adults, or 22.8 million people, say they largely follow a vegetarian-inclined diet. Data for this survey were collected by the Harris Interactive Service Bureau on behalf of Vegetarian Times. The poll surveyed 5,050 respondents, a statistically representative sample of the total U.S. population. Vegetarian Times commissioned RRC Associates, a research firm in Boulder, Colo., to perform the data analysis. The 2008 study also indicates that of the non-vegetarians surveyed 5.2 percent, or 11.9 million people, are “definitely interested” in following a vegetarian-based diet in the future. The study also collected data on age, gender and other demographic factors. Of the vegetarians surveyed: 59 percent are female; 41 percent are male. 42.0 percent are age 18 to 34 years old; 40.7 percent are 35 to 54; and 17.4 percent are over 55. 57.1 percent have followed a vegetarian diet for more than 10 years; 18 percent for 5 to 10 years; 10.8 percent for 2 to 5 years, 14.1 percent for less than 2 years. The 2008 study also indicated that over half (53 percent) of current vegetarians eat a vegetarian diet to improve their overall health. Environmental concerns were cited by 47 percent ; 39 percent cited “ natural approaches to wellness” ; 31 percent cited food-safety concerns; 54 percent cited animal welfare; 25 percent cited weight loss; and 24 percent weight maintenance. Vegetarianism in America 2008 |
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| FamousGroupie | Dec 22 2008, 10:11 PM Post #49 |
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Lee, why are you splitting hairs? I'm tired of reading 'so you claim (insert whatever here)' in your posts when you know full well that that isn't what is being said?? |
| I don't believe in Bondi. I don't believe in rugby league. I believe in Yoko, John Lennon, the Lost Weekend and me. | |
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| Deleted User | Dec 22 2008, 10:31 PM Post #50 |
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I have often comtemplated it by every receip book I pick up is full of tomatoes and sodden cheese in the dishes. |
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| Deleted User | Dec 22 2008, 11:51 PM Post #51 |
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| Bill | Dec 23 2008, 12:39 AM Post #52 |
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Lee, with all due respect mate, try reading what I actually said instead of putting some perverse spin on it. This is the kind of hair-splitting that Clare was talking about. Did I say anything about PETA? No, I did not. What PETA says is neither here nor there. I am simply talking about the meaning of words. It's not an abstract concept. There are plenty of vegetarians who are not vegans. There is not a single vegan who is not vegetarian. Should I post a definition of "encompass"?
Edited by Bill, Dec 23 2008, 12:50 AM.
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| Bill | Dec 23 2008, 01:06 AM Post #53 |
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Perhaps it would clarify things if I brought in the signature I created for the Maccaboard when people were determined to misconstrue me.
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| Bill | Dec 23 2008, 01:07 AM Post #54 |
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[duplicate]
Edited by Bill, Dec 23 2008, 01:12 AM.
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| Deleted User | Dec 23 2008, 02:52 AM Post #55 |
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This is really splitting hairs and of no consequence whatsoever, except that I think you should know that word 'encompass' means 'to include' as in: 'Vegetarianism encompasses (or includes) veganism.' Veganism does not encompass (or include) vegetarianism. en·com·pass Function: transitive verb Etymology: Middle English Date: 14th century 1 a: to form a circle about : enclose b: obsolete : to go completely around 2 a: envelop b: include , comprehend <a plan that encompasses a number of aims> 3: bring about , accomplish <encompass a task> encompass Function: verb 1 to form a circle around<a necklace of sapphire-blue lakes encompasses the town>— see surround 2 to have as part of a whole<textbooks on American history are now likely to encompass its social history as well as its political and military history>— see include 3 to surround or cover closely<a fog of mystery has long encompassed this fraternal organization, which is known for its secret rituals>— see enfold Synonyms: include, cover, take in, incorporate, involve, comprehend, embrace, contain, comprise, embody, hold Antonym: exclude |
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| Deleted User | Dec 23 2008, 02:59 AM Post #56 |
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Your second point: I will not debate the meaning of the word 'real' with you; however, I think you are aware of a group that advocates veganism as opposed to other forms of vegetarianism, such as lacto-ovo-vegetarianism. The name of that group is PETA. Now you are aware of a group that does not consider lacto-ovo-vegetarians as 'real' or 'true' vegetarians. For PETA, in my opinion, the ONLY acceptable form of vegetarianism is veganism. I am not opposed to veganism, but I simply pointing out that the ultimate aim of PETA is to convert every person to veganism, not other forms of vegetarianism, such as those that most of the vegetarian members of this forum practice. |
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| beatlechick | Dec 23 2008, 03:35 AM Post #57 |
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In Paul's Arms!
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Just like I don't claim to be a veggie as I do eat fish. I do hope to be able to end eating that as well, and have cut down on it quite a bit, but until then I am not a vegetarian. |
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| beatlechick | Dec 23 2008, 03:41 AM Post #58 |
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In Paul's Arms!
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Boy are you wrong here. The vegetarians I know wouldn't think of buying eggs that were factory farmed. The thought is just incomprehensible to most vegetarians. |
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| Deleted User | Dec 23 2008, 04:12 AM Post #59 |
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Do the vegetarians that you know represent the views of the majority of vegetarians, such as the ones that are primarily vegetarians for health reasons? I could only find two articles on the subject and both suggested that the majority of the 22 million vegetarians in the US are vegetarians for health-related reasons (54 percent) and may or may not eat free-range eggs. I think opinions are valuable but subjective. Of course, I also wonder how many of those 22 million vegetarians from the Vegetarian Times poll accurately represented their actual diets or answered more idealistically. Polls and questionaires are notoriously inaccurate when it comes to reporting food intakes. The Times poll on vegetarianism only reported 4-5% vegetarians in the US, which is closer to 12-15 million vegetarians. The truth often lies somewhere in between the two extremes. |
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| Jacaranda | Dec 23 2008, 04:46 AM Post #60 |
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I suppose I'd have to read further up but Lee why are you interested in what the majority of vegetarians think, when whoever you're asking here can only give an individual point of view representative only of a very small population? I know three vegetarians who became vegetarians strictly for health reasons; thus all three wear leather and use leather products, but I don't claim that they represent the majority of the viewpoints of vegetarians all over, and certainly not of the ones here. And no I'm not a vegetarian, but as I said earlier I have considerably cut down on my consumption of meat, dairy and eggs, because I consider them unhealthy. |
![]() "If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through." General Melchett, Blackadder Goes Forth | |
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| Bill | Dec 23 2008, 04:50 AM Post #61 |
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You've just proven my point. Veganism includes all the principles of vegetarianism and then some. Vegetarianism does not include all the principles of veganism. QED.
Wrong on just about every level. For a start, no-one was talking about PETA and the alleged objectives of PETA have nothing to do with what words really mean. PETA do no have an option on the English language. Vegetarianism does not mean whatever PETA wants it to mean so they are utterly irrelevant to the issue of what actually constitutes vegetarianism. You are aware of one of PETA's most recognisable advocates. His name is Paul McCartney. Fact: Paul McCartney is not, nor has he ever been, a vegan. In fact, whenever he has been erroneously asked about veganism in interviews, he always corrects them and says, "I'm not vegan, I'm veggie." Yet somehow, Paul still likes PETA and PETA still likes Paul. How can this be explained? As to the question of whether vegans are the only true vegetarians, whether it's in my mind or the English language, I'll put it as simply as I possibly can: NO! Is that clear enough? In all honesty Lee, are you really interested in discussing the issue, or are you just looking for "gotcha" points? |
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| Deleted User | Dec 23 2008, 05:27 AM Post #62 |
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I guess that I take issue with Andy's statement that the 'vast majority' of vegetarians became vegetarians due to ethical reasons, because in college I did become a vegetarian for ethical reasons and did not give a crap about my health, but now that I have a chronic illness I am much more interested in the vegetarian diet for health-related reasons, particularly with regard to food safety and weight management. I have yet to see any evidence supporting that the vast majority of vegetarians do not eat meat for ethical reasons. I think if a demographic breakdown were done, a higher percentage of 35 and under vegetarians would be vegetarian more for ethical reasons and a higher percentage of 35 and over would be more concerned with health isues. That's just my opinion. |
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| Deleted User | Dec 23 2008, 05:41 AM Post #63 |
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OK, I now understand that you were referring to the principles of vegetarianism, which are encompassed within the stricter principles of veganism. Wow. I had no idea that Paul wasn't a vegan since he has been referred to as a vegan so many times and particularly by PETA, for whose founder he contributed a forward and other high recommendations. I also agree that vegans are not the 'real' or 'true' vegetarians, but I was under the impression that you said you were not aware of a group that considered veganism to be the 'real' vegetarianism. I still think PETA fits that description. I am primarily interested in discussing vegetarianism, but I will take all of the Gotcha! points that I can accrue from you, due to my high respect for your intelligence. It's a shame that no actual vegetarians are contributing much more than a sentence or two to this thread. |
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| Jacaranda | Dec 23 2008, 05:43 AM Post #64 |
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It may be that the "vast majority" of vegetarians in the UK became veggie due to ethical reasons though. As you say Lee it's difficult probably to determine this stat, and might not be possible for anyone here to say beyond their personal experience. I think that you are right in suggesting though that there are a wide range of vegetarians, and Bill is right in saying that you can still be a ethically-based vegetarian who is not vegan. A vegan diet, by the way, is the healthiest possible diet if done correctly, particularly for us middle-aged folks.
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![]() "If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through." General Melchett, Blackadder Goes Forth | |
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| Bill | Dec 23 2008, 05:48 AM Post #65 |
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Well, I think as Lisa said, people can only speak for themselves and shouldn't be asked to explain PETA's behaviour just for expressing their own principles. Whether PETA's platform matches your description of it is debatable. As mentioned on the other thread, most PETA supporters are reasonable people who don't deserve to be defined by, or expected to answer for, the lunatic fringe.
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| Deleted User | Dec 23 2008, 06:02 AM Post #66 |
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I agree with all of your points, but I don't forsee a vegan diet in my future. As I stated earlier, I am simply interested in reducing meat in my diet and eating healthier for medical reasons and weight management. I am very curious to know if the vast majority of vegetarians choose that diet for ethical reasons or other reasons. We haven't even touched on cultural or religious reasons. For instance, Buddhists are vegetarians for religious reasons. Also, what is the difference between moral and ethical reasons for vegetarianism? |
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| Deleted User | Dec 23 2008, 06:14 AM Post #67 |
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We have eight meat eaters and five vegetarians in the poll so far, but no vegans. Let me see if I can pick the veggies that have voted so far. |
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| beatlechick | Dec 23 2008, 06:33 AM Post #68 |
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In Paul's Arms!
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To clarify about Paul and veganism. Paul never was or is a vegan. Stella, Mary, Bea, (and maybe daughter Heather) are vegetarian. Only son James has professed to being vegan. I think ex-wife Heather is trying to raise Bea as a vegan but not sure. I can only speak of the vegetarians I know but I have to agree with Andy that a vast, not THE vast, majority of vegetarians will not touch regular eggs. It's cage-free or nothing. Not just because they are raised on a range but also because the chickens are not injected with hormones or antibiotics. That alone should constitute some worry about your health. |
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| Bill | Dec 23 2008, 06:50 AM Post #69 |
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Of course, there are plenty of meat eaters who will not touch battery eggs either. There are others who will only eat free range pork. Unfortunately, the definition of "free range" can be pretty lenient in some places. |
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| beatlechick | Dec 23 2008, 07:11 AM Post #70 |
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In Paul's Arms!
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Bill, usually free-range (or cage-free) here means no antibiotics and no hormones given to an animal that is allowed to be free and out of crowded cages or pens. |
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| Deleted User | Dec 23 2008, 07:11 AM Post #71 |
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If I ate eggs, I would definitely eat free-range for both health and ethical reasons. I don't think I have eaten an egg since around 1995. My main vegetarian faux pas is eating turkey on my sandwiches for lunch and eating chicken and seafood once or twice a week each. I don't really like beef, ham, bacon or pork. |
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| Bill | Dec 23 2008, 10:14 AM Post #72 |
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Not all Buddhists are vegetarian. I don't understand that either. As for the difference between moral and ethical reasons, I'd say the difference would be the same as the difference between morals and ethics in general. I've always considered them to mean roughly the same thing. |
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| JeffLynnesBeard | Dec 23 2008, 10:38 AM Post #73 |
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Administrator & Moderator
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Strange how you 'bolded' the 53 percent of respondents who cited health reasons and yet left the 54 percent of respondents who cited animal welfare unbolded. But thanks for doing the research to back up my point, even though you were obviously trying to do the exact opposite. |
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| JeffLynnesBeard | Dec 23 2008, 10:44 AM Post #74 |
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Administrator & Moderator
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This survey from the UK's Cauldron foods is interesting reading. It only allows for one vote, so you cannot choose more than one option; It is ongoing, but here are the results so far; Why did you go vegetarian? (tick the main reason) To spare animals from suffering (60%, 111 Votes) Just don't like the taste of meat (12%, 22 Votes) To be more healthy (8%, 15 Votes) Other (Let us know in the comments) (7%, 13 Votes) To avoid the chemicals/hormones (6%, 11 Votes) To help the environment (4%, 8 Votes) To manage my weight (3%, 5 Votes) Total Voters: 185 http://www.cauldronfoods.co.uk/index.php/polls/why-youre-veggie-survey/ |
| ...and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make. | |
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| Jacaranda | Dec 23 2008, 03:03 PM Post #75 |
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This is most likely very true. Because if in the U.S. vegetarians choose their diet due to either health or ethics (or both), then health-conscious people mostly reject all eggs, or would choose free-range due to the lack of hormones/antibiotics, and of course, vegetarians who choose this diet because of ethical reasons would not choose factory-farm produced eggs. There are a lot of health-conscious omnivores that also choose free-range and organic products, thus the success of chains in the U.S. like Whole Foods. |
![]() "If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through." General Melchett, Blackadder Goes Forth | |
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| Mindy | Dec 23 2008, 03:31 PM Post #76 |
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I have to admit Lapis, it is hard to tell if you're genuinely interested in the topic, or if you're simply trying to stir things up. |
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| Deleted User | Dec 23 2008, 08:13 PM Post #77 |
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Obviously I am just trying to stir things up with incendiary posts such as this.
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| Deleted User | Dec 23 2008, 08:15 PM Post #78 |
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Yet another rabid anti-vegetarian posting designed to stir things up.
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| Deleted User | Dec 23 2008, 08:17 PM Post #79 |
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More merciless attacks on the poor vegetarians and why they chose their diet!
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| Mia Culpa | Dec 24 2008, 04:26 AM Post #80 |
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I'm so stealing this. |
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| Mia Culpa | Dec 24 2008, 04:27 AM Post #81 |
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This space intentionally left blank.
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If you don't stir the pot from time to time everything burns. |
| If you read my posts backward there's evidence that Paul is dead. | |
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| Kit_Kat | Dec 24 2008, 04:36 AM Post #82 |
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Lennon's Mummy xx
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Mia, can I use that brilliant line in my sig? |
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| Mia Culpa | Dec 24 2008, 04:39 AM Post #83 |
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This space intentionally left blank.
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Go right ahead. I probably stole it from somebody else. |
| If you read my posts backward there's evidence that Paul is dead. | |
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| beatlechick | Dec 24 2008, 07:12 AM Post #84 |
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In Paul's Arms!
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My boyfriend is included in that lot. He's the one that buys the eggs in this household and those are the ones he has chosen to buy. |
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| Reverend Dave | Dec 24 2008, 05:07 PM Post #85 |
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The hardest adjustment to becoming a vegetarian for me was doing without the traditional food. Christmas and Thanksgiving dinner was always about turkey. Easter was ham. Fourth of July was hot dogs. Even though I've lived away from home for several years I still try to merge my traditions with Chinese traditions on special days. Turkey dinners gave way to chicken dinners, but there was still plenty of ham. Now my Christmas dinner is usually a blend of noodles or rice and vegetables with mashed potatoes the way my mother makes them and cranberry sauce. Dinner rolls are hard to come by, but Chinese bakeries are amazing. |
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With great power comes great responsibility. With great age.... What was I going to say? | |
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| Bill | Dec 27 2008, 12:34 PM Post #86 |
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Rather than confuse issues with lacto-ovo-semi-macro vegetarians and the like, I've compiled a list of different types based on observations from message boards. There are those who eat meat. Of those who eat meat, there appear to be several subsets. There are those who eat meat and have no ethical or moral concerns about it. Hey, life is cruel, man is at the top of the food chain, deal with it. There are those who eat meat and still respect the vegetarian point of view, or even sympathise with it. There are those who still eat meat but are making efforts to cut down, or remove it from their diet completely. Most of them just quietly get on with it, but there are two further subsets in this group. There are those who have cut out some kinds of meat and seem to be craving kudos from vegetarians for it. Well, congratulations on making a start, but there's no such thing as a semi-vegetarian. Then there are the passive-aggressives. They're the ones who will say, “Well I guess I must be a bad person for wearing leather shoes but I have to because it's part of my work uniform and I can't afford to lose my job.... etc.... etc....” No-one is calling anyone a bad person, okay? There are vegetarians. Vegetarians do not eat anything produced from a dead animal but have no particular objection to products extracted from living animals such as milk and eggs. Leather is a grey area. There are subsets of vegetarians too. There are those who will defend their lifestyle and their reasons, but never be judgemental towards others who do not share their choice. Then there are the sanctimonious vegetarians who look down on meat eaters and form lynch mobs as soon as someone reveals that they once stepped foot in McDonald's. Curiously, this second subset seems to exist only in the minds of passive-aggressive meat eaters. Then there are vegans. In addition to not eating flesh, vegans abstain from all animal product entirely, including dairy, honey and wool. If you want to know why, then ask them. But make sure you're asking a vegan and not a vegetarian. It's just good manners. The interesting thing in all of this is that although there is a section of meat eaters who expect to be condemned by vegetarians, it never seems to happen. On the contrary, the only cage-rattling being done is by some (although by no means all) meat eaters. |
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| pythonesque | Dec 27 2008, 12:45 PM Post #87 |
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The only meat I eat ,is very occasionally,fish.In my mind,Im a veggie but I cant be. |
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| Deleted User | Dec 27 2008, 07:54 PM Post #88 |
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No pot stirring in that tongue-in-cheek post! I just thought I would receive more advice on how to progress towards a more meat-less diet for health reasons and less condescending attacks on my motives for starting the thread. I realize none of the vegetarians on this forum have ever firebombed an animal research facility, but I still think there is a great deal of defensiveness among both vegetarians and pseudo-vegetarians when questioned about their beliefs. I felt some cage-rattling when Andy questioned my off-handed comment about the 'PETA patrol' in my description about eating a rib-eye for my birthday and also when I was lightly chastened for eating an Arby's roast beef sandwich. I know it's probably disgusting, but I have eaten fast food on occaision, as have many other members of this forum, I am sure. I know you may not agree, but there ae some vegetarians and, particularly, some vegans that do come off as slightly superior and condescending when questioned about their diets or when speaking with them about my diet. I am not 'craving kudos from vegetarians'. I just eat less meat, eggs and dairy because it's healthier. |
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| temptresss | Dec 28 2008, 01:23 AM Post #89 |
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"but I still think there is a great deal of defensiveness among both vegetarians and pseudo-vegetarians when questioned about their beliefs" defensive because you are offensive (in your own little way) about it. |
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| Deleted User | Dec 28 2008, 01:27 AM Post #90 |
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why the fook should they be defensive about it, they aint doing anyone any harm and no veggie has ever been defensive with me. |
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| Bill | Dec 28 2008, 02:07 AM Post #91 |
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Sorry if I missed that request for advice. Perhaps if you had said, "Does anyone have any advice on how to progress towards a more meat-less diet for health reasons?" you might have got a better result. ![]() Arguing the toss over whether cheese is a vegetable doesn't really prompt people to do that. But since you've brought it up, let's draw a line under the pedantry and talk about how to replace meat. Anyone?
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| maccascruff | Dec 28 2008, 02:09 AM Post #92 |
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Sing the Changes
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I am not defensive and I will not try to force you to do it my way if you have the pleasure of dining with me. |
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