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Are you for or against it?
Proud Supporter of the Death Penalty - an eye for an eye 7 (19.4%)
Totally Against - Killing Someone is Wrong 21 (58.3%)
I Am Not Sure 8 (22.2%)
Total Votes: 36
The Death Penalty
Topic Started: Aug 1 2007, 11:11 PM (2,665 Views)
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So are you for or against the death penalty? Please explain why (I said please)
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billyshears
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I am STRONGLY against the death penalty. Why can't they just put the convict in jail for life? I don't understand WHY such cruelty is necessary. That should be added to the list of cruel and unusual punishments.
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beatlechick
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Totally against capital punishment. Makes no sense. Coming from the Christian point of view, only God has the right to judge and be executioner. Coming from the humanist view, murder no matter how you paint it is still murder. In the US, the reason from capital punishment was to scare people away from doing the same crime. It ain't working. Why allow the government to murder anyone? Let the criminal face the families and loved ones of the person they murdered, robbed, or harmed. Let them payback the families for the terrible deeds they've done. Let them see what the family and loved ones life is like because of the act that was committed against their loved one. Let them see it, live it, and breath it.
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maccascruff
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I am against the death penalty, but can't vote because of the wording.
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Bill
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Again?

Still?

It's morally and intellectually absurd to kill people under the principle that it's wrong to kill people.

Great quotes dept:
The reason it's called capital punishment? Those who don't have the capital get the punishment.
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Nick2006
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You can't change whats been going on for years people

there's no point in trying

some people just deserve to be erased
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mozart8mytoe
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I have been saying for some time now that Tony is a troublemaker.

Like Linda, I did not vote. I would need an additional option.

I am a proud citizen of two countries. In one, capital punishment was abolished in 1870 (although a handful of people were executed after World War II). The other is one of the top five execution states in the world. Catching up with China is a b*tch, but watch out, Iran. We are gaining on you.

The most popular arguments against capital punishment are that it is morally wrong to kill and that once someone is executed they cannot be brought back to life if new evidence emerges.

The problem is that sometimes it is morally right to kill. If someone is going to kill you and your family and the only way to stop them is to kill them, would you or would you let them kill you and your family? And what about war? If you are morally opposed to killing and your enemy is not, odds are you are going to lose. (It is true that if everyone were morally opposed to killing there would be no war, but there would also be no murders, thus making this entire discussion moot).

I like the argument that the executed cannot be released after there is new evidence, but that has only happened in somewhere around 2% of all cases. A great theory, but not exactly abundant in practice.

The popular arguments for capital punishment are that it is a deterrent and that the Bible says it is ok. But the Bible contradicts itself on this issue (as with many others), and if executions are a deterrent, why does Texas, which executes almost as many people as every other state combined, have one of the highest murder rates in the country?

My problem with the death penalty is that in the United States most death sentences are reversed because of incompetent lawyers, misconduct by prosecutors, and jury bias. In the United States, white people commit far more crimes than black people, but there are far more black people than white people in prison.

billyshears
Aug 1 2007, 06:30 PM
That should be added to the list of cruel and unusual punishments.

In the United States it was, between 1972 and 1976, and still is in some states.

beatlechick
Aug 1 2007, 07:26 PM
Let the criminal face the families and loved ones of the person they murdered, robbed, or harmed.  Let them payback the families for the terrible deeds they've done.  Let them see what the family and loved ones life is like because of the act that was committed against their loved one.  Let them see it, live it, and breath it.

The problem is that many murderers feel little or no remorse for their crime. It is very easy to dismiss any feelings of guilt after a crime of passion or opportunity since the murderer often feels there was no other option. And then you have the sociopaths who would simply laugh at the relatives of their victims.

Nick2006
Aug 2 2007, 01:47 AM
You can't change whats been going on for years people

there's no point in trying

Most people would disagree. Maybe that is one reason more people draw pictures on computers instead of inside caves. One of the most consistent changes people have made over the years is change itself.
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Yes Lissa I am a trouble maker :P

I am 100% against the death penalty though I do like the idea of killing child molesters.
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mozart8mytoe
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So why are you against it?
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I don't think we as a society should be killing anyone. Nor do I believe that everyone who gets the death sentence has the same access to a defense against it.
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Bill
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Nick2006
Aug 2 2007, 04:47 PM
You can't change whats been going on for years people

there's no point in trying

some people just deserve to be erased

And then when someone tries to apply that principle, they get hanged.

Ironic, no?

mozart8mytoe
Aug 2 2007, 05:55 PM

I like the argument that the executed cannot be released after there is new evidence, but that has only happened in somewhere around 2% of all cases.  A great theory, but not exactly abundant in practice.

So the 2% (that we know about so far) of innocent people who have been legally killed don't count for anything?
2% may seem like a small proportion but it would look a lot more abundant as an actual number. Surely 1 is too many.
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JeffLynnesBeard
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Apart from believing that nobody has the right to kill and that it doesn't act as a deterrent, I simply do not have enough faith in the judicial system in any country to try people in an entirely fair manner. It's difficult to believe that America still has the death penalty and that there are so many supporters - it's just fundamentally wrong, whether our gut feelings tell us that certain members of society 'deserve it' or not.
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Bill
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I have no argument with the suggestion that some people deserve to die.
That's not the question.
The question is not about right to live, but right to kill.
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Nick2006
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The point im saying is bill

yes i understand Murder is wrong and yes maybe capital punishment isn't the answer

but i can't seem to find out what is the answer

prison these days is like a life of luxery to some people

TV's, Radio's ok i know for some petty criminals that is fair enough

but should we really allow pedophiles, murderers and rapists to have a chance??

Their actions are pure evil and acting them they have no consideration not only for their victims but also for people who know the victims

they are probably safer in prison from the lynch mob so to speak
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Bill
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I dare anyone to do a week in maximum security and then tell me prison is a life of luxury.
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ellieanne

I am really not sure on this issue. At one time I was strongly in favor of the death penalty -- becasue of course, the idea that one could be put to death for a crime was a deterrant to me to commit crime. But then I am not everyone, and obviously it is not such a strong deterrant to other people. Also, it is more cost effective to keep someone alive in a prison than it is to execute them. Really, I was surprised to learn that it is cheaper to serve out a life sentence (completed or not) than it is to execute someone. But at the same time, in most death penalty cases the accused stands on charges of murder. So the accused usurped the right to kill someone else -- justified or not. Why should he not be forced to live by the same system of rights he used when he killed someone else? Then I get to the incongruencies in my head -- we should strive to be better than everyone else, not just "not as bad." And to be better we have to stop doing what we abhor, otherwise we become what we abhor. So to be better people (individually and as a nation) we have to stop killing people recklessly and wantonly -- whether that reckless and wanton killing was legally justifiable or not.

Besides. I feel that for some people, a life sentence is much more a punishment than death. That can lead us to prison reform, which is another subject and that was not the question asked.
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Nick2006
Aug 2 2007, 01:03 PM
The point im saying is bill

yes i understand Murder is wrong and yes maybe capital punishment isn't the answer

but i can't seem to find out what is the answer

prison these days is like a life of luxery to some people

TV's, Radio's ok i know for some petty criminals that is fair enough

but should we really allow pedophiles, murderers and rapists to have a chance??

Their actions are pure evil and acting them they have no consideration not only for their victims but also for people who know the victims

they are probably safer in prison from the lynch mob so to speak

The problem is that the men who thrive in maximum security prisons are the ones who deserve it the least. But their callousness and comradeship make prison what it is. It's the less angry, less strong, less violent types who will suffer the most. Any person who is thrown in there by chance won't be the same person when they're released, if they survive that long. Besides, putting them to death because 'you don't know what else to do with them' and because you heard that they get cable isn't really the ideal argument. No one is safe in prison.
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Nick2006
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Don't get me wrong i have heard how Dangerous some prisons can be

On the radio, a former drug addict who did time for the drug related burgleries more recently had reformed and found religion. He was spending his time in Swansea prison which is probably one of the worst in the country. I was horrified of the stuff i heard. It's like a mini mafia in those places.

Apprently this guy and his clique had been told to go and sort out somebody because he had beat up an old lady or something so they battered him with bats and tools, which i agree he probably deserved it because of the sickness in that crime.

But then there are the ones who are attacked without reason. The guy mentioned that Swansea prison was extremely racist and he mentioned how two people had their face cut open as if they were carved dolls just because of the colour of their skin.

Actually as i have been typing this i have realised they probably suffer more when they are alive
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Of course. Don't we all? I'm sure many criminals in prison would welcome death. Their ability to kill in the first place shows what little regard they have for any life. In fact, tonight on Channel 4 is a documentary entitled America's Deadliest Prison Gang which follows the Aryan Brotherhood gang in prison. I would probably find it far too upsetting to watch but I feel like I have a good idea of how it works in lock-up.
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BlueMolly2009
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I did say I'm for it, but it's depending on the situation. I believe if someone kills a police officer they should be killed, or if they kill a child they should be killed. I do think there are innocent people who get put to death. That's why I think DNA should be part of the determination on whether or not the person should be put to death.
NYS doesn't have the death penalty, and I wish they would put it back, at least for cop killers and those who murder children.
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DNA can be placed, DNA can be erased. Any innocent person put to death makes it not worth it. I often wish it could depend on the situation as well but my scenarios are a little different than yours, which is exactly why that sort of in-between decision making can never be put into action.
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Nick2006
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I think i will watch that sounds intresting
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beatlechick
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Bill
Aug 2 2007, 05:08 AM
I dare anyone to do a week in maximum security and then tell me prison is a life of luxury.

I would dare anyone to do a day. Any of the stories where the reporters go into a prison, you see the armed guards at every move the reporter AND the inmates make. You see the lifestyle the inmates have to make for themselves, and the brutality the inmates incur against themselves. It ain't pretty and that is just the regular prison system. Maximum security is like being in solitary confinement in the regular system. You are not only behind locked cell doors but cell doors that only have a hole big enough for your food tray to go through and a small thin window. You get like an hour to exercise and be out of your cell. If that is luxury, give me squalor.
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BlueMolly2009
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MaccaByrd
Aug 2 2007, 12:06 PM
DNA can be placed, DNA can be erased. Any innocent person put to death makes it not worth it. I often wish it could depend on the situation as well but my scenarios are a little different than yours, which is exactly why that sort of in-between decision making can never be put into action.

May I ask, Fiona, if you had a close relative who was a police officer and they were killed by someone would you want that person who killed them to die? I know if I had a relative who was a cop, I would want whoever killed them to die. Anyone who kills a police officer should be punished by death, because they show that they don't care about their lives anyway.
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I would probably feel like killing them no matter what my family member did for a living. :huh: But that would not change my stance on the death penalty. Sort of like when you feel like you could just punch someone in the face.....!

...but don't. ;)
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beatlechick
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MaccaByrd
Aug 2 2007, 09:12 PM
I would probably feel like killing them no matter what my family member did for a living. :huh: But that would not change my stance on the death penalty. Sort of like when you feel like you could just punch someone in the face.....!

...but don't. ;)

Same here. I had an uncle that was a sheriff's deputy and stopped a motorist for a traffic violation. That motorist got out of his car and kicked my uncle in the back so hard, it did permanent damage to the spinal column. Yes, i understand that this shows a lack of respect for authority but would I want that person to die if his kicking killed my uncle? Like Fiona, I would want to be the one to do it, but again I would have to state why is it we can't kill but the state can? Killing in itself is disgusting but I can not agree that the law killing a person can be justified either.
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ellieanne
Aug 2 2007, 07:27 AM
Besides. I feel that for some people, a life sentence is much more a punishment than death. That can lead us to prison reform, which is another subject and that was not the question asked.

I wonder how many death sentence supporters would feel different if those who were behind bars were given less than some of us are able to get.

btw welcome to the group!
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Sher
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It's not right.
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wackadoo
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This is a tough one for me because I have a son who is a police officer and he has seen some pretty horrible things. I've also done a lot of visiting in maximum security prisons and I know a little about how awful life can be there and yes, Bill is right about life being no picnic in there. They are definitely paying their dues to society.

Typically, I don't ever like hearing when the death penalty has been given. Realistically, if one of my children were ever murdered, I think I would be upset enough to want the death penalty for the offender. I don't think we can know how we would feel about this topic unless it directly affected us.
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SherryO
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I also didn't vote. People (in Canada) who are convicted of multiple slayings, such as Paul Bernardo, Clifford Olsen, & Robert Picton deserve more than just jail time. Paul Bernardo & his then wife,Karla Homolka, kidnapped, held, tortured, raped & killed 2 girls. Karla has gotten out of prison, changed her name, & has had a child of her own. Is that justice for the victims, or their families? I think not. She bargained her way out of a life sentence, & is now free to live her life. What about those girls? They will never graduate, get married, or have children, & their families have lost them forever. Get this, their first victim, was Karla's younger sister. They then killed 2 more girls, once they got away with it. It is thought that he was actually a rapist, who terrorized Toronto for years, but was never caught.
I don't know if killing them is the right thing to do, but let's just say that it's an insurance policy against God not punishing them. Because we will never know if they do get punished on the other side of life, will we? I guess it depends on your belief system. I know 2 wrongs don't make a right, but I would sure feel better if I were the family of a victim. It would be a relief to know that even in the unlikely event that they escaped, not one else would ever go through what my loved one went through.
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MaccaByrd
Aug 2 2007, 11:12 PM
Sort of like when you feel like you could just punch someone in the face.....!

...but don't. ;)

So it is the but don't part I have been getting wrong all this time. Live and learn.
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Usually I am against the death penalty, I am a firm believer in hard manual labor, put them on a chain gang in Alaska where you will freeze your butt off, or in the desserts in Arizona/New Mexico where you'll sweat your butt off. I think that is more of a deterrent than death. Most of these criminals aren't that afraid of dying. If they refuse to work they would remain in there cell 24/7, no visitors, no mail, no tv, no exercise. You want out of your cell and exercise, get to work. Want something to read, you get a bible of your choice. who do you worship? No sheets or pillows for your bed (they can try to kill themselves with it). Your bed is bulted down and the pad is attatched to the bed. You are allowed a shower 2 times a week (unless you work then everyday upon return). Sounds harsh? So was their crime! It should be as harsh and uncomfortable as possible. If I am faced with having to let some of these people free due to over crowding, execute the worst of them until problem solved.
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Bill
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...and let he who is without sin cast the first stone! ;)
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So in Dan's jail I would stuck in a cell with the Anthology? :D

Unless you can guarantee that a person is guilty, the circumstances were avoidable and the motive was cold-blooded... that punishment harsh, yes.
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billyshears
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dantheweatherman
Aug 4 2007, 09:59 AM
Usually I am against the death penalty, I am a firm believer in hard manual labor, put them on a chain gang in Alaska where you will freeze your butt off, or in the desserts in Arizona/New Mexico where you'll sweat your butt off. I think that is more of a deterrent than death. Most of these criminals aren't that afraid of dying. If they refuse to work they would remain in there cell 24/7, no visitors, no mail, no tv, no exercise. You want out of your cell and exercise, get to work. Want something to read, you get a bible of your choice. who do you worship? No sheets or pillows for your bed (they can try to kill themselves with it). Your bed is bulted down and the pad is attatched to the bed. You are allowed a shower 2 times a week (unless you work then everyday upon return). Sounds harsh? So was their crime! It should be as harsh and uncomfortable as possible. If I am faced with having to let some of these people free due to over crowding, execute the worst of them until problem solved.

Same here, I prefer hard manual labor to capital punishment.
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wackadoo
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I am glad you guys aren't correctional officers! That is extreme, to say the least.
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Bill
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Key word there is correctional. No-one denies there must be punishment but the primary aim of imprisonment is rehabilitation.
The topic of crime and punishment often seems to bring out the dark side in people. Perhaps we should all reflect on what we think should happen to those who we deem inferior to us.
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Good point. That sort of punishment doesn't do much except make us feel better.
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wackadoo
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Yes, good points by Bill and Fiona. I have met a few nice correctional officers but, for the most part, they have been people who are on some kind of power trip. One inmate explained it to me that often they are people who are taking out their insecurities on the inmates. I'm sure that isn't always the case but I have seen more rude COs than I have respectful ones.
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dantheweatherman
Aug 4 2007, 09:59 AM
Usually I am against the death penalty, I am a firm believer in hard manual labor, put them on a chain gang in Alaska where you will freeze your butt off, or in the desserts in Arizona/New Mexico where you'll sweat your butt off. I think that is more of a deterrent than death. Most of these criminals aren't that afraid of dying. If they refuse to work they would remain in there cell 24/7, no visitors, no mail, no tv, no exercise. You want out of your cell and exercise, get to work. Want something to read, you get a bible of your choice. who do you worship? No sheets or pillows for your bed (they can try to kill themselves with it). Your bed is bulted down and the pad is attatched to the bed. You are allowed a shower 2 times a week (unless you work then everyday upon return). Sounds harsh? So was their crime! It should be as harsh and uncomfortable as possible. If I am faced with having to let some of these people free due to over crowding, execute the worst of them until problem solved.

AMEN
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BlueMolly2009
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Why does it seem the more liberal minded people are against the death penalty and the more conservatory minded people are for the death penalty? :hmm:
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Because liberals are wishy washy.
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BlueMolly2006
Aug 5 2007, 02:05 AM
Why does it seem the more liberal minded people are against the death penalty and the more conservatory minded people are for the death penalty? :hmm:

isn't it obvious?
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Nick2006
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believe me i would not be a very nice prison officer
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JanaW
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Murder is murder no matter how you look at it. In my book, the guy who sticks the needle into another mans arm is just as guilty as they guy he is killing.

Our government and judicial system may tell him 'it's okay to do it, it's your job' but I personally would not want to take the chance that God has a big book and he is keeping score, because I don't think his book will see a difference in the two.

Murder is murder, no matter how you try to justify it.
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BlueMolly2009
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I just don't get it how anyone would want a killer live, especially if they killed a cop. I sometimes think if some of you ran the prison system, you would let the murders go so they would kill again and again. Yeah, let's let the murders of the police go, so they can kill those nasty pigs. :yawn: (being sarcastic there)
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Bill
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Molly, where did anyone say anything about letting them go? Is anyone suggesting that there is not a middle ground between legalised homicide and general amnesty? <_<
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BlueMolly2006
Aug 5 2007, 05:25 PM
Yeah, let's let the murders of the police go, so they can kill those nasty pigs. :yawn: (being sarcastic there)

And no need to point out that you're being sarcastic. Most of us here get it.


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Dorfliedot
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I believe if someone is killing your family yes, you have right to defend your self. However, as for the death penalty no. Believe it is ok to defend your self. Killing someone in name of justice is wrong. To me you would be a murder your self if that was the case. In addition, you do not know that you might kill an innocent person. As Jesus said, it was Witten an eye for an eye I say, let not turn the other check. For I say, that if one fight by the shard shell die by the shard.
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DCBeatle64
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These people should not be killed by us.As far as I'm concerned imprisonment is a far superior and effective punishement for severe crimes.So many of these people have ended up killing themselves because they can no longer cope.
Another issue to be considered is if we get the wrong ones.There have been times where people have been wrongly punished.Slighty harder to fix if we kill them
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BlueMolly2006
Aug 5 2007, 12:25 AM
I just don't get it how anyone would want a killer live, especially if they killed a cop. I sometimes think if some of you ran the prison system, you would let the murders go so they would kill again and again. Yeah, let's let the murders of the police go, so they can kill those nasty pigs. :yawn: (being sarcastic there)

Molly do you honestly think we would be that stupid as to let murderers go free? No one is even close to saying that. All we are saying is that murder is murder no matter who does it and should not be done. I agree, cop killers should not be allowed out but by the same token why should a cop be allowed to kill someone and not be labelled a citizen killer? You think they kill just the criminals? I've got news for you, sister, they kill innocent people too. What happens to them? They rarely get arrested for murder, they may get suspended with or without pay and investigated by the police commission then possibly fired. Only after that they may get arrested for 2nd degree murder or assault with a deadly weapon. Why would they get special treatment for killing somebody? I understand very well that law enforcement is not an easy field to deal with. I am not against the police and support them as much as I can but we do have bad cops that give their depts a bad name. When it comes to an innocent young teenager or a young kid with a toy gun being shot and killed, you have to ask yourself why does the cop have the right to kill them because they mistakenly took that toy as being real?

BTW, my uncle was kicked by a person he had previously arrested.
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I oppose killing in all its forms.
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MannyDavvi
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Michael Vick should be sent to prison for life
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Bill
Aug 4 2007, 04:13 PM
Key word there is correctional. No-one denies there must be punishment but the primary aim of imprisonment is rehabilitation.
The topic of crime and punishment often seems to bring out the dark side in people. Perhaps we should all reflect on what we think should happen to those who we deem inferior to us.

I agree Bill, it is for rehabilitation and punishment, but in cases such as Jessica Lunsford killer John Evander Couey, I don't care if he ever gets rehabilitated. This animal (I will not call him a man or human, because he is neither) deserves nothing less than pain and suffering the rest of his natual life. Giving him the death penalty by leathal injection would be to easy to quick. I would love to be his correctional officer, he would be begging for the death penalty, even if it meant the most painful form.
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Bill
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Pardon me Dan - and I mean no offence or disrespect by this - but that's not a very Christian attitude is it? ;)

"Whatsoever you do unto the least of My brothers, that you do unto Me."
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Bill
Aug 7 2007, 02:46 AM
Pardon me Dan - and I mean no offence or disrespect by this - but that's not a very Christian attitude is it? ;)

"Whatsoever you do unto the least of My brothers, that you do unto Me."

No offense taken. You are right, what this man has done to that little girl he did to God. So, I am sure you agree that God has reserved a very special place in hell for this guy. Meanwhile here on earth, I think there should be a special place called hell on earth just for him.
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Blondie10
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I think in some cases the death penalty is JUST!!!

Florida still has the death penalty and here is one of the people who received it...

Read a bit about this monster...had he been put to death his first round in jail...there would not have been a horrible massacre at a Florida college... innocent young woman brutally murdered.... in cases like this...DAMN right I believe in the death penalty!!!


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Bundy



There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened. -- Douglas Adams <a href='http://eapr-1/@' target='_blank'></a>
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Count me in amongst the ones opposed to the death penalty, insomuch as when the criminal has been caught and separated from society I see little societal value in killing them off (including the gamble of discovering some years later that some of the prisoners might have been innocent, even though many of them probably aren't).

I say "caught", as I realise police sometimes are faced with situations so dangerous to themselves or civilians that lethal force becomes justified - but that is of course different from when the criminal has indeed been apprehended and disarmed. As long as the worst crimes are punished with life imprisonment with no chance for parole (and I'm not opposed to some type of hard manual labour or similar work) - then I think we've reached a point where anything beyond that is pure revenge, and whereas just about anyone who is enraged by the crime might certainly feel inclined to put an end to the offender's life instinctively, that doesn't mean it is a wise societal structure to enforce. The question on what our emotional gut instict would be is different from the question of what is an appropriate societal sytem of punishment.

Furthermore, the notion of religious/spiritual belief when considering punishment in some kind of hereafter is interesting, as it invites the question from someone like me, who is a non-believer: if one suspects the "experience" of death to be simply a big cup of nothingness - (although of course the death of a person can be a huge tragedy and punishment for surviving loved ones) - then wouldn't punishment for a severe crime merit something a bit more in the realm of the living ... such as: "You're going to give up all your freedoms and spend the rest of your life hard at work serving the innocent population you have scarred"?

Should some people's belief that a deity will "sort 'em out" take precedence in a court of law?
"My definition of a free society is a society where it is safe to be unpopular." - Adlai Stevenson

"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying." - Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
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Blondie10
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And everyone against the death penalty.....what if someone abducted, tortured and then killed your child... or your spouse or your mother or father... I say DEATH PENALTY.....as long as a person is still alive...they still have hope...these kind of evil monsters DO NOT deserve hope!!! :angry:
There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened. -- Douglas Adams <a href='http://eapr-1/@' target='_blank'></a>
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Blondie10
Aug 7 2007, 08:30 PM
And everyone against the death penalty.....what if someone abducted, tortured and then killed your child... or your spouse or your  mother or father... I say DEATH PENALTY.....as long as a person is still alive...they still have hope...these kind of evil monsters DO NOT deserve hope!!! :angry:

That actually brings up another point I wanted to make - about the "deterrence factor". I can see that to some it truly is a deterrence, but what of the other side of the coin? Is it unreasonable to suspect that a criminal who gets into a situation where lives are at risk, and perhaps some have already been lost, that it "doesn't matter" if he/she goes on a mad killing spree as the knowledge of the death penaly is there anyway? In other words, doesn't lack of hope actually produce even more ruthless murderers?

If a close loved one of mine was murdered, I'm fairly certain my instinct would be to want to try very hard and track down and eliminate the person who caused it. That, on the other hand, doesn't mean I think it is a good idea to governmentally enforce that sort of behaviour, as I suspect it would lead to further brutalization of society, and of course it brings the inherent risks of innocents getting caught in the wave of non-innocents. As for the societal worth of it all, see my above post.
"My definition of a free society is a society where it is safe to be unpopular." - Adlai Stevenson

"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying." - Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
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Blondie10
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ThirdHarmony
Aug 7 2007, 06:39 PM
Blondie10
Aug 7 2007, 08:30 PM
And everyone against the death penalty.....what if someone abducted, tortured and then killed your child... or your spouse or your  mother or father... I say DEATH PENALTY.....as long as a person is still alive...they still have hope...these kind of evil monsters DO NOT deserve hope!!! :angry:

That actually brings up another point I wanted to make - about the "deterrence factor". I can see that to some it truly is a deterrence, but what of the other side of the coin? Is it unreasonable to suspect that a criminal who gets into a situation where lives are at risk, and perhaps some have already been lost, that it "doesn't matter" if he/she goes on a mad killing spree as the knowledge of the death penaly is there anyway? In other words, doesn't lack of hope actually produce even more ruthless murderers?

If a close loved one of mine was murdered, I'm fairly certain my instinct would be to want to try very hard and track down and eliminate the person who caused it. That, on the other hand, doesn't mean I think it is a good idea to governmentally enforce that sort of behaviour, as I suspect it would lead to further brutalization of society, and of course it brings the inherent risks of innocents getting caught in the wave of non-innocents. As for the societal worth of it all, see my above post.

Well....when you're dealing with minds like Ted Bundy?? Jack the Ripper...anyone who could possibly torture and murder another... any form of rational thinking is out the window for these people... they don't know what hope is... you see..they are driven...in their minds to KILL.....just as we are driven to breath and eat...they are driven to KILL.... I"ve done alot of reading on the mind set of serial killers...people who target children...etc....these people dont live in the same world as we do....they don't have any rules....they have no conscience....they are unable to feel basically.... like robotic killing machines.... minds like that are terrifying really!!!! :o :wacko:
There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened. -- Douglas Adams <a href='http://eapr-1/@' target='_blank'></a>
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Blondie10
Aug 7 2007, 08:54 PM
Blondie10,Aug 7 2007
08:30 PM

Well....when you're dealing with minds like Ted Bundy?? Jack the Ripper...anyone who could possibly torture and murder another... any form of rational thinking is out the window for these people... they don't know what hope is... you see..they are driven...in their minds to KILL.....just as we are driven to breath and eat...they are driven to KILL.... I"ve done alot of reading on the mind set of serial killers...people who target children...etc....these people dont live in the same world as we do....they don't have any rules....they have no conscience....they are unable to feel basically.... like robotic killing machines.... minds like that are terrifying really!!!! :o :wacko:

Yes, well, you are still talking about the revenge instinct, and I don't deny that I would feel exactly the same - but there is a time and place for the anger and loathing, and there is another situation to be dealt with once they are behind lock and key. Look, if the jail system was irreparably prone to letting lunatics of such magnitude out of prison, or systematically fails to keep them from escaping, then the death penalty would gather much more weight as a sheer mechanism of protection of the people in a society. But as long as it is possible to keep them completely locked away, killing them is only pure revenge - something done as an (probably weak) attempt to soothe the aching nerves of those calling out for blood. Again, as I wrote just before, if they are caught in the act of killing, then if they are "taken out" by a swat team or similar in doing so, because there is reason to believe they will kill even more if given just another few seconds, I'm not going to be the one complaining loudly - but the issue I'm talking about is when they are already in jail. I'm not talking about holding out any hope for these diseased people with those kind of warped brains to "recover" - I'm talking about the unnecessity of killing them off once they are put away for life.
"My definition of a free society is a society where it is safe to be unpopular." - Adlai Stevenson

"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying." - Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
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Blondie10
Aug 7 2007, 06:53 PM
I think in some cases the death penalty is JUST!!!

Florida still has the death penalty and here is one of the people who received it...

Read a bit about this monster...had he been put to death his first round in jail...there would not have been a horrible massacre at a Florida college... innocent young woman brutally murdered.... in cases like this...DAMN right I believe in the death penalty!!!


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Bundy

Again, why does it have to be a choice between killing them or letting them go? :wacko:
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MaccaByrd
Aug 7 2007, 08:01 PM
Blondie10
Aug 7 2007, 06:53 PM
I think in some cases the death penalty is JUST!!!

Florida still has the death penalty and here is one of the people who received it...

Read a bit about this monster...had he been put to death his first round in jail...there would not have been a horrible massacre at a Florida college... innocent young woman brutally murdered.... in cases like this...DAMN right I believe in the death penalty!!!


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Bundy

Again, why does it have to be a choice between killing them or letting them go? :wacko:

I'm not sure what other choices we have besides life sentence and death penalty?? :o I'm Thinking though... put em all on a deserted island with NO way off and let nature take it's course??? Hmmmm
There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened. -- Douglas Adams <a href='http://eapr-1/@' target='_blank'></a>
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Sorry guys I just feel kind of strongly about all this.... I know most people don't share my point of view.... but just take a quick read of this....

http://www.prodeathpenalty.com/


There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened. -- Douglas Adams <a href='http://eapr-1/@' target='_blank'></a>
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Blondie10
Aug 7 2007, 08:57 PM
Sorry guys I just feel kind of strongly about all this.... I know most people don't share my point of view.... but just take a quick read of this....

http://www.prodeathpenalty.com/

I do understand where you are coming from and I have also at one time supported the death penalty at one point in my life. Some cases I will admit, am ok with the death penalty, what I mean is if a child is tortured, raped and killed like Jessica Lunsford was, and they hand down the death penalty, I won't be calling for a stay of execution. Sometimes these criminals prefer death or don't care. That is when I think why not let them live, serve a life sentence in a way they wished they had got the death penalty. Of course you have the human rights people saying it's cruel and inhumane, we can't allow that to happen. I could after what they did. Now what exactly would I do, see my prior post. Hard manual labor in an extreme enviorments, or sit in a cell 24/7.
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Blondie10
Aug 7 2007, 01:57 PM
Sorry guys I just feel kind of strongly about all this.... I know most people don't share my point of view.... but just take a quick read of this....

http://www.prodeathpenalty.com/

Sorry Val, but no matter what any document says I am a firm believer in no capital punishment. What good does it really do since it has been proven time and again that it was to be used as a deterrent but it no longer works? Sure we get rid of that person who performed an evil deed but there are more than one person ready to take their place. What do we do with them? Kill them? Why should they get special, easy treatment by putting them to death? Why should the gov't be able to satiate their bloodlust when the public is not allowed to?
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Blondie10
Aug 8 2007, 04:30 AM
And everyone against the death penalty.....what if someone abducted, tortured and then killed your child... or your spouse or your mother or father... I say DEATH PENALTY.....as long as a person is still alive...they still have hope...these kind of evil monsters DO NOT deserve hope!!! :angry:

Once again, the death penalty issue is not about the right to live - it's about the right to kill. ;)
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Bill
Aug 7 2007, 10:42 PM
Blondie10
Aug 8 2007, 04:30 AM
And everyone against the death penalty.....what if someone abducted, tortured and then killed your child... or your spouse or your  mother or father... I say DEATH PENALTY.....as long as a person is still alive...they still have hope...these kind of evil monsters DO NOT deserve hope!!! :angry:

Once again, the death penalty issue is not about the right to live - it's about the right to kill. ;)

So the criminals have the right to kill then. I understand now. ;)
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BlueMolly2006
Aug 4 2007, 07:05 PM
Why does it seem the more liberal minded people are against the death penalty and the more conservatory minded people are for the death penalty?  :hmm:

I studied at conservatories for years and I only support the death penalty in cases of vigilante retribution.
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Bill
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Mr Bellamy
Aug 8 2007, 01:35 PM
Bill
Aug 7 2007, 10:42 PM
Blondie10
Aug 8 2007, 04:30 AM
And everyone against the death penalty.....what if someone abducted, tortured and then killed your child... or your spouse or your  mother or father... I say DEATH PENALTY.....as long as a person is still alive...they still have hope...these kind of evil monsters DO NOT deserve hope!!! :angry:

Once again, the death penalty issue is not about the right to live - it's about the right to kill. ;)

So the criminals have the right to kill then. I understand now. ;)

Did I say that? I think not.

No-one has the right to kill. That's the point. If an individual deserves to die (and I'm not saying they don't) that does NOT give others the right to kill him.

I am deeply suspicious of any government that assumes the power of life and death over its people. Okay, so they can't balance the budget, run a health system or get the trains running on time (no disrespect Mark and Andy) but they can be trusted to decide who lives and who dies?
No thank you!
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Mr Bellamy
Aug 8 2007, 03:35 AM
Bill
Aug 7 2007, 10:42 PM
Blondie10
Aug 8 2007, 04:30 AM
And everyone against the death penalty.....what if someone abducted, tortured and then killed your child... or your spouse or your  mother or father... I say DEATH PENALTY.....as long as a person is still alive...they still have hope...these kind of evil monsters DO NOT deserve hope!!! :angry:

Once again, the death penalty issue is not about the right to live - it's about the right to kill. ;)

So the criminals have the right to kill then. I understand now. ;)

Good point.... I suppose we have to protect the vicious murderers and child rapists and killers ...... form being put to death in a much more humane way then they did their victims..... it's not really and eye for an eye...if it was...then Ted Bundy would have been stalked...beaten with a club all over his face and body till semi concious....then raped multiple time , BITTEN all over the body in places we wont talk about...given one last blow about the head...and then have his dead bloody body raped again...now THAT would be...and eye for an eye....

SOME cases deserve the death penalty.... :cry:
There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened. -- Douglas Adams <a href='http://eapr-1/@' target='_blank'></a>
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Bill
Aug 8 2007, 01:11 PM
Mr Bellamy
Aug 8 2007, 01:35 PM
Bill
Aug 7 2007, 10:42 PM
Blondie10
Aug 8 2007, 04:30 AM
And everyone against the death penalty.....what if someone abducted, tortured and then killed your child... or your spouse or your  mother or father... I say DEATH PENALTY.....as long as a person is still alive...they still have hope...these kind of evil monsters DO NOT deserve hope!!! :angry:

Once again, the death penalty issue is not about the right to live - it's about the right to kill. ;)

So the criminals have the right to kill then. I understand now. ;)

Did I say that? I think not.

No-one has the right to kill. That's the point. If an individual deserves to die (and I'm not saying they don't) that does NOT give others the right to kill him.

I am deeply suspicious of any government that assumes the power of life and death over its people. Okay, so they can't balance the budget, run a health system or get the trains running on time (no disrespect Mark and Andy) but they can be trusted to decide who lives and who dies?
No thank you!

I think there have to be STRONG rules sometimes Bill....I ABHORE killing...all we really have is life....thats the most precious thing right next to love.....LOVE and life...we CANT allow vicious maniacs to be given the luxary of LIFE....when your alive...you can still...think and hope and dream under any circumstances...THESE horrible NOT HUMAN creatures don't deserve this.... Florida has the death penalty..and I am 100 percent FOR it....there are so few executions ...... people arent executed left and right.... it's saved ONLY for the most horrid criminals...and with DNA testing now....we know we're not putting an innocent man to death....


AGGHH....Damn this thread!!! :P I'm a t work and HAVE TO WORK!!! :o :P
There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened. -- Douglas Adams <a href='http://eapr-1/@' target='_blank'></a>
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Mr Bellamy

Bill
Aug 8 2007, 09:11 AM
Mr Bellamy
Aug 8 2007, 01:35 PM
Bill
Aug 7 2007, 10:42 PM
Blondie10
Aug 8 2007, 04:30 AM
And everyone against the death penalty.....what if someone abducted, tortured and then killed your child... or your spouse or your  mother or father... I say DEATH PENALTY.....as long as a person is still alive...they still have hope...these kind of evil monsters DO NOT deserve hope!!! :angry:

Once again, the death penalty issue is not about the right to live - it's about the right to kill. ;)

So the criminals have the right to kill then. I understand now. ;)

Did I say that? I think not.

No-one has the right to kill. That's the point. If an individual deserves to die (and I'm not saying they don't) that does NOT give others the right to kill him.

I am deeply suspicious of any government that assumes the power of life and death over its people. Okay, so they can't balance the budget, run a health system or get the trains running on time (no disrespect Mark and Andy) but they can be trusted to decide who lives and who dies?
No thank you!

Once again, you're thinking only about the criminals here.

I'm not saying the Death Penalty is the answer - I believe LIFE in jail, should mean LIFE - not 10 years of rehablitation in a social club atmosphere, playing video games, watching DVD's, being allowed to write books.

People have this wrong in my view - prison is about PUNISHMENT, NOT about rehabilitation, and if a person TAKES a life, then the punishment should be harsh, forever and endless.

I often hear about HUMAN RIGHTS - the indignity of the system, the HUMAN RIGHTS of the criminal etc..

Well here is MY take...

WHAT ABOUT THE HUMAN RIGHTS OF THE VICTIMS & THEIR FAMILIES

When any person kills, the they GIVE UP their human rights. The families of murdered and raped kids are punished till the day they die, and they HAVE DONE NOTHING WRONG.

Surely the KILLERS SHOULD BE PUNISHED till the day they die too, and in severe cases be put down, just as wild dogs are.

I have NO sympathy with killers and rapists - they think they can get away with it, and do. Liberalism sometimes goes TOO far.
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Blondie10
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dantheweatherman
Aug 7 2007, 10:59 PM
Blondie10
Aug 7 2007, 08:57 PM
Sorry guys I just feel kind of strongly about all this.... I know most people don't share my point of view.... but just take a quick read of this....

http://www.prodeathpenalty.com/

I do understand where you are coming from and I have also at one time supported the death penalty at one point in my life. Some cases I will admit, am ok with the death penalty, what I mean is if a child is tortured, raped and killed like Jessica Lunsford was, and they hand down the death penalty, I won't be calling for a stay of execution. Sometimes these criminals prefer death or don't care. That is when I think why not let them live, serve a life sentence in a way they wished they had got the death penalty. Of course you have the human rights people saying it's cruel and inhumane, we can't allow that to happen. I could after what they did. Now what exactly would I do, see my prior post. Hard manual labor in an extreme enviorments, or sit in a cell 24/7.

YOu know....This is only my opinion...but I even think hard, manual labor is too good for these in human creatures......In my mind life is our most precious gift...we have the abiltiy to love...think...imagine...see ..... hear... these HORRIBLE KILLERS...have taken this gift AWAY from innocent people and WORSE YET from innocent CHILDREN...makes me want to cry really.... hard to think about and ever harder to watch on the news...read about... I don't even look at it as revenge...I look at it as justice... and the killers have the added BONUS of being killed in a humane way....not chased down....bludgeoned...stabbed...raped and worse....DISGUSTING....

NOW I AM WORKING DAMN IT!!! :hyper: :o
There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened. -- Douglas Adams <a href='http://eapr-1/@' target='_blank'></a>
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Bill
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Mr Bellamy
Aug 8 2007, 11:33 PM

Once again, you're thinking only about the criminals here.

You could not be more wrong!

I am thinking about all the good law-abiding people who are, by their support and by their citizenship, accessories to homicide whenever someone is executed.

What about the rights of the victim? Right to what? Kill people? No-one has that right. But no-one.

I don't care about the rights of killers AT ALL! And you will find nothing in anything that I have said that goes close to saying that I do. What I am saying is that no-one has the right to kill. And I find the bloodlust that some people exhibit on the subject truly disturbing. Anyone who fantasises about torturing and killing others - no matter who those others are - don't talk to me vicious killers when you're already thinking like one.
I refuse to become what I despise. Sorry if you don't.
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Bill
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Blondie10
Aug 8 2007, 11:28 PM

I think there have to be STRONG rules sometimes Bill....I ABHORE killing...all we really have is life....thats the most precious thing right next to love.....LOVE and life...we CANT allow vicious maniacs to be given the luxary of LIFE....when your alive...you can still...think and hope and dream under any circumstances...THESE horrible NOT HUMAN creatures don't deserve this.... Florida has the death penalty..and I am 100 percent FOR it....there are so few executions ...... people arent executed left and right.... it's saved ONLY for the most horrid criminals...and with DNA testing now....we know we're not putting an innocent man to death....


AGGHH....Damn this thread!!! :P I'm a t work and HAVE TO WORK!!! :o :P

DNA testing is not flawless and it's irrelevant to my point anyway. You do not have the right to kill. Not you, not them, not anyone.

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Mr Bellamy

Bill
Aug 8 2007, 09:52 AM
Mr Bellamy
Aug 8 2007, 11:33 PM

Once again, you're thinking only about the criminals here.

You could not be more wrong!

I am thinking about all the good law-abiding people who are, by their support and by their citizenship, accessories to homicide whenever someone is executed.

What about the rights of the victim? Right to what? Kill people? No-one has that right. But no-one.

I don't care about the rights of killers AT ALL! And you will find nothing in anything that I have said that goes close to saying that I do. What I am saying is that no-one has the right to kill. And I find the bloodlust that some people exhibit on the subject truly disturbing. Anyone who fantasises about torturing and killing others - no matter who those others are - don't talk to me about animals.

I find the liberalist point of view truly disturbing too. It's NOT about bloodlust and torture. It's about PUNISHMENT.

AND...if you read my post correctly, you will see I said the Human Rights of the VICTIM, meaning victim of the cirme.

So, it's fair then, that a family can be punished and tortured for life, due to a murder or rape, and the criminal has no torture, and no punishment? Whichever way you look at it, SOMEONE get's tortured for life. Surely the criminal/killer deserves to get at LEAST the same amount as the family.

You see Bill, it's easy for you to have a point of view on this, BUT...tell me....what is YOUR way of handling these sick, serial rapists/killers? Do you feel it's right then, for them to spend maybe 15 years inside prison living a reasonable life, when they have wiped out whole families? What would be YOUR punishment for these people?
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Blondie10
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Bill
Aug 8 2007, 01:56 PM
Blondie10
Aug 8 2007, 11:28 PM

I think there have to be STRONG rules sometimes Bill....I ABHORE killing...all we really have is life....thats the most precious thing right next to love.....LOVE and life...we CANT allow vicious maniacs to be given the luxary of LIFE....when your alive...you can still...think and hope and dream under any circumstances...THESE horrible NOT HUMAN creatures don't deserve this.... Florida has the death penalty..and I am 100 percent FOR it....there are so few executions ...... people arent executed left and right.... it's saved ONLY for the most horrid criminals...and with DNA testing now....we know we're not putting an innocent man to death....


AGGHH....Damn this thread!!! :P I'm a t work and HAVE TO WORK!!! :o  :P

DNA testing is not flawless and it's irrelevant to my point anyway. You do not have the right to kill. Not you, not them, not anyone.

I'd not ever kill anyone.... :lol: and I'm sure you would not either...thats not what we are talking about...we're talking about legal justice

well....I disagree with you completely in the most amicable of ways.... :lol:

I'ts great we all live in countries we're able to state our opinions without out getting killed.... and I suppose we can all thank the soldiers who fought for our freedom of speech and living!!! ;)
There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened. -- Douglas Adams <a href='http://eapr-1/@' target='_blank'></a>
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Bill
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Simple: Life. No release, no parole.

As I said a few pages ago, do a week in maximum security then tell me if it's a reasonable life.

And what the hell has liberalism got to do with it? This is not about right and left, it's about right and wrong.

Is it fair on the families of the victims? No, it isn't. But show me a family who were able to live happily ever after when someone was executed. Show me one victim who has been brought back to life thanks to capital punishment. It's never happened and it never will. So the idea that killing criminals somehow honours the victims is an absolute crock.

Let me ask a simple question. Is it wrong to kill people? Answer yes or no.

If the answer is "No," then you understand my stance on the death penalty.
If the answer is "Sometimes," then you have taken the first step to thinking like a killer - to rationalise homicide.
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Bill
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Blondie10
Aug 9 2007, 12:13 AM

I'd not ever kill anyone.... :lol:

Glad to hear it. :lol:

So, despite supporting capital punishment, you wouldn't be the one to throw the switch? ;)
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Bill, or anyone against the death penalty. When is killing wrong? The answer I would give is "When it is a murder". If someone had a gun and was going to use it on me and I had one, I will kill them first. Should I be charged with a crime? No. If someone is convicted of a murder, society has the right to end his life. That does not mean you have to, but you have the right to do so.
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Bill
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Say who?

Killing in self-defence is justified in every legal and moral code in the world.

What is murder?
I would define murder as the deliberate pre-meditated killing of another. That definition applies perfectly to an execution.
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Mr Bellamy

Bill
Aug 8 2007, 10:15 AM
Simple: Life. No release, no parole.

As I said a few pages ago, do a week in maximum security then tell me if it's a reasonable life.

And what the hell has liberalism got to do with it? This is not about right and left, it's about right and wrong.

Is it fair on the families of the victims? No, it isn't. But show me a family who were able to live happily ever after when someone was executed. Show me one victim who has been brought back to life thanks to capital punishment. It's never happened and it never will. So the idea that killing criminals somehow honours the victims is an absolute crock.

Let me ask a simple question. Is it wrong to kill people? Answer yes or no.

If the answer is "No," then you understand my stance on the death penalty.
If the answer is "Sometimes," then you have taken the first step to thinking like a killer - to rationalise homicide.

It is NOT wrong to kill SOME people in my view - but the fact that you accuse me of thinking like a killer is ridiculous, and i take an amicable exception to that.

I take it if we were all of the same mind as you Bill, Nazi Germany would now rule the entire planet. Killing is sometimes an evil neccesity unfortunately.

I support Capital Punishment in VERY extreme cases - I would much rather have extreme life sentences. I also support Voluntary Euthnanasia in extreme cases too - but on the OTHER side of the coin, I could never support the SMACKING fraternity.

I sometimes feel we treat our dogs more rationally than our fellow human beings.

Interesting topic, and one that will never, ever be agreed upon.

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Mr Bellamy

Bill
Aug 8 2007, 10:27 AM
Say who?

Killing in self-defence is justified in every legal and moral code in the world.

What is murder?
I would define murder as the deliberate pre-meditated killing of another. That definition applies perfectly to an execution.

The war against Hitler was planned and pre-meditated too - as was the response to Pearl Harbour, and the response to Saddam invading Kuwait - you can't pigeon hole stuff like this.
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dantheweatherman
Aug 8 2007, 10:20 AM
Bill, or anyone against the death penalty. When is killing wrong? The answer I would give is "When it is a murder". If someone had a gun and was going to use it on me and I had one, I will kill them first. Should I be charged with a crime? No. If someone is convicted of a murder, society has the right to end his life. That does not mean you have to, but you have the right to do so.

Correct, the killer forfeits all his human rights, as he has killed a fellow human being. Society has the right to punish as they see fit - if that means a humane death, then so be it.
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Blondie10
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Bill
Aug 8 2007, 02:18 PM
Blondie10
Aug 9 2007, 12:13 AM

I'd not ever kill anyone.... :lol:

Glad to hear it. :lol:

So, despite supporting capital punishment, you wouldn't be the one to throw the switch? ;)

If someone tortured , raped and killed my child...or my loved one... I"d certianly allow the Florida switcher....to THROW the switch!!! It would bring me NO happiness.... but it would certianly put my mind at ease that this murderer is no longer able to commit a crime....do you have ANY idea what the murder rate INSIDE jails are....thise wacks are KILLING each other as well as the guards and anyone they can get their hands on.... their purpose in life is to KILL KILL KILL...

It's CRAZY.... :o
There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened. -- Douglas Adams <a href='http://eapr-1/@' target='_blank'></a>
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Blondie10
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Mr Bellamy
Aug 8 2007, 02:31 PM
dantheweatherman
Aug 8 2007, 10:20 AM
Bill, or anyone against the death penalty. When is killing wrong? The answer I would give is "When it is a murder". If someone had a gun and was going to use it on me and I had one, I will kill them first. Should I be charged with a crime? No. If someone is convicted of a murder, society has the right to end his life. That does not mean you have to, but you have the right to do so.

Correct, the killer forfeits all his human rights, as he has killed a fellow human being. Society has the right to punish as they see fit - if that means a humane death, then so be it.

I second this.....GOOD point Dan!!


And just so EVERYONE KNOWS.... Gary is one of the MOST peaceloving gentle people I've ever met!!! ;) We just don't wear rose colored glasses and see the world for what it really is....a BEAUTIFUL place ...that sometimes MUST have harsh rules.... and that most humans are GOOD and NOT evil.... but this aint the wild west....law and order are necessary...we all just disagree on the way to acheive law and order.... ;)
There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened. -- Douglas Adams <a href='http://eapr-1/@' target='_blank'></a>
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Mr Bellamy

Blondie10
Aug 8 2007, 10:40 AM
Mr Bellamy
Aug 8 2007, 02:31 PM
dantheweatherman
Aug 8 2007, 10:20 AM
Bill, or anyone against the death penalty. When is killing wrong? The answer I would give is "When it is a murder". If someone had a gun and was going to use it on me and I had one, I will kill them first. Should I be charged with a crime? No. If someone is convicted of a murder, society has the right to end his life. That does not mean you have to, but you have the right to do so.

Correct, the killer forfeits all his human rights, as he has killed a fellow human being. Society has the right to punish as they see fit - if that means a humane death, then so be it.

I second this.....GOOD point Dan!!


And just so EVERYONE KNOWS.... Gary is one of the MOST peaceloving gentle people I've ever met!!! ;) We just don't wear rose colored glasses and see the world for what it really is....a BEAUTIFUL place ...that sometimes MUST have harsh rules.... and that most humans are GOOD and NOT evil.... but this aint the wild west....law and order are necessary...we all just disagree on the way to acheive law and order.... ;)

And I should add.......we don't just agree on this cos we're together. Val is a peaceful, loving, decent person too, but there has to be punishment in society, or it would INDEED become the wild west.

The punishment should ALWAYS fit the crime, and I'll state my point of view for the last time - in my opinion, once a person has killed in a pre-meditated way, then he/she forfeits all Human Rights. Society therefore has the right to hand out any punishment needed, and if that includes taking a life, then so be it.
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Bill
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Mr Bellamy
Aug 9 2007, 12:28 AM

It is NOT wrong to kill SOME people in my view - but the fact that you accuse me of thinking like a killer is ridiculous, and i take an amicable exception to that.

Good - it was an amicable accusation. ;)

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I take it if we were all of the same mind as you Bill, Nazi Germany would now rule the entire planet.

Amicable or not, what the f*ck??? You have completely misrepresented my point.

Quote:
 
The war against Hitler was planned and pre-meditated too - as was the response to Pearl Harbour, and the response to Saddam invading Kuwait - you can't pigeon hole stuff like this.

World War 2 was fought in self-defence which, as we have already established, is allowed for in every legal and moral code ever. And the killing in war is not done with the intention of killing but is simply a necessary evil to achieve an objective. If you think it was all about killing people then that would mean that Germany won - they still had the greater body count.

The war was about defending freedom, not killing people who displeased us. There is no analogy. If the same objective could have been achieved without all the killing, then that's what would have been done.

Taking someone held prisoner into a room, then strapping them to something and ritually killing them is not exactly self defence is it? That's not a kill-or-be-killed situation. And those who have killed after they were released, well, don't release them! Duh!
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Bill
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Mr Bellamy
Aug 9 2007, 12:47 AM

And I should add.......we don't just agree on this cos we're together. Val is a peaceful, loving, decent person too, but there has to be punishment in society, or it would INDEED become the wild west.

Ironically enough, there were far more killings in the name of "justice" back then. ;)
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Quote:
 
Killing in self-defence is justified in every legal and moral code in the world.

Execution - The act or an instance of putting to death or being put to death as a lawful penalty.

Executing someone can be definined as self-defense as well, to ensure that that person will never kill again. Inmates do kill other inmates so if you put them in prison, they can still kill.
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Blondie10
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i'M JUST CURIOUS.....was anyone here PRO abortion who is ANTI Capitol punishment? OK...so you know where I'm going with this but I'm really just curious... ;) :D
There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened. -- Douglas Adams <a href='http://eapr-1/@' target='_blank'></a>
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Bill
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Excellent question! I'm against both. :)
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dantheweatherman
Aug 8 2007, 02:51 PM
Quote:
 
Killing in self-defence is justified in every legal and moral code in the world.

Execution - The act or an instance of putting to death or being put to death as a lawful penalty.

Executing someone can be definined as self-defense as well, to ensure that that person will never kill again. Inmates do kill other inmates so if you put them in prison, they can still kill.

RIGHT ON!!!
There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened. -- Douglas Adams <a href='http://eapr-1/@' target='_blank'></a>
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Bill
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dantheweatherman
Aug 9 2007, 12:51 AM
Quote:
 
Killing in self-defence is justified in every legal and moral code in the world.

Execution - The act or an instance of putting to death or being put to death as a lawful penalty.

Executing someone can be definined as self-defense as well, to ensure that that person will never kill again. Inmates do kill other inmates so if you put them in prison, they can still kill.

No, it doesn't work that way. You could use that justification to kill anyone who looks at you the wrong way on the grounds that he might possibly one day do you harm.

Again, fans of irony will note that this is the way many people end up on death row. :lol:
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Blondie10
Aug 8 2007, 02:59 PM
dantheweatherman
Aug 8 2007, 02:51 PM
Quote:
 
Killing in self-defence is justified in every legal and moral code in the world.

Execution - The act or an instance of putting to death or being put to death as a lawful penalty.

Executing someone can be definined as self-defense as well, to ensure that that person will never kill again. Inmates do kill other inmates so if you put them in prison, they can still kill.

RIGHT ON!!!

Thanks, and I am against abortion.
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Blondie10
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Bill
Aug 8 2007, 02:58 PM
Excellent question! I'm against both. :)

Well....your sticking to what you believe and I respect you for that.... I STILL TOTALLY DISAGREE WITH YOU ABOUT CAPITOL PUNISHMENT THOUGH..LMAO :P

WHY can you not see our point of VIEW?? WHY WHY??? :D DAMN IT!!! :P

OK...just messin but I've knocked my head against walls discussing this with people at work...and I had a friend who was the victim of a BRUTAL crime...I worked with her and this happened just 2 years ago...I won't go into total detail but she was viciously murdered in her home...body parts cut out...and she was beheaded.... CAPITOL PUNISHMENT!!!! THIS assh*le turned out to be a serial killer and killed as many as 100 people.... :angry:

some people are monsters...
There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened. -- Douglas Adams <a href='http://eapr-1/@' target='_blank'></a>
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Bill
Aug 8 2007, 03:00 PM
dantheweatherman
Aug 9 2007, 12:51 AM
Quote:
 
Killing in self-defence is justified in every legal and moral code in the world.

Execution - The act or an instance of putting to death or being put to death as a lawful penalty.

Executing someone can be definined as self-defense as well, to ensure that that person will never kill again. Inmates do kill other inmates so if you put them in prison, they can still kill.

No, it doesn't work that way. You could use that justification to kill anyone who looks at you the wrong way on the grounds that he might possibly one day do you harm.

Again, fans of irony will note that this is the way many people end up on death row. :lol:

Come on Bill you can give a better arrgument than that! You can't kill someone for looking at you the wrong way. It wouldn't even stand in court. If the person had a weapon in his/her hand pointing it at me with that look, then yes.
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Blondie10
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dantheweatherman
Aug 8 2007, 03:02 PM
Blondie10
Aug 8 2007, 02:59 PM
dantheweatherman
Aug 8 2007, 02:51 PM
Quote:
 
Killing in self-defence is justified in every legal and moral code in the world.

Execution - The act or an instance of putting to death or being put to death as a lawful penalty.

Executing someone can be definined as self-defense as well, to ensure that that person will never kill again. Inmates do kill other inmates so if you put them in prison, they can still kill.

RIGHT ON!!!

Thanks, and I am against abortion.

DOUBLE RIGHT ON!!! :lol: :D
There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened. -- Douglas Adams <a href='http://eapr-1/@' target='_blank'></a>
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