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2008 U.S. Presidential Election
Topic Started: Feb 22 2007, 05:49 AM (37,410 Views)
JeffLynnesBeard
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beatlechick
Nov 5 2008, 06:31 AM
maccascruff
Nov 5 2008, 02:49 AM
wackadoo
Nov 5 2008, 02:29 AM
Bag O' Nails
Nov 4 2008, 07:44 PM
JeffLynnesBeard
Nov 4 2008, 07:43 PM
...but not enough, hopefully. ;)
:peace:
It's a bit more balanced on PM.com, Heidi. Less sarcasm and more respect to each other on both sides. :frustrated: :cheers:
It's only balanced if you are a conservative. It's all in the eyes of the beholder.
That's for damn sure!
You are absolutely cracking me up, Mary Ann - more balanced on pm.com? They're about 95% conservative on there, some of them hard line, repeating talking points from Bill O'Reilly's shows and getting applauded for it by ignorant people who don't know any better.

If I want to read comedy right-wing rants, I'll go to pm.com, but it's not often I'm in the mood for that kind of material. You may find that the e-mail you reproduced here will get a much more sympathetic hearing there, but there is a good reason for that.

I'm pleased that neo-Cons are now officially in the minority in the USA. Perhaps now the country can move forward instead of regressing.
...and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
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FamousGroupie
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Someone over at another site has just announced that America is f*cked - run by a 'dude who looks like a monkey'.

:blink:

This is exactly why America needs someone like Barack Obama. To change the outdated attitudes that some people still hold.
I don't believe in Bondi. I don't believe in rugby league. I believe in Yoko, John Lennon, the Lost Weekend and me.
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beatlechick
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Dorothy
Nov 5 2008, 07:23 AM
Obama mind me of the movie omen. Where Damien said, you all would get to love me. He said, I know the ones who did not vote for me will get to love me. I had to laugh on how it minds me of that movie. You don't think he is the Anti- Christ do you? : Unsure: blink: whistle: Ok, Dorothy gets hold of your self you paranormal is getting to you.
Dotty, don't be drawing any conclusions to that. All politicians want to be loved. Besides the movie The Omen is just a movie based on nothing but being a horror movie. There is no truth in it.
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beatlechick
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FamousGroupie
Nov 5 2008, 07:26 AM
Someone over at another site has just announced that America is f*cked - run by a 'dude who looks like a monkey'.

:blink:

This is exactly why America needs someone like Barack Obama. To change the outdated attitudes that some people still hold.
OMIGAWD, that's disturbing! Better a monkey than a jackass who doesn't know what the hell they are doing (not talking McCain).
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Dorfliedot
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beatlechick
Nov 5 2008, 07:26 AM
Dorothy
Nov 5 2008, 07:23 AM
Obama mind me of the movie omen. Where Damien said, you all would get to love me. He said, I know the ones who did not vote for me will get to love me. I had to laugh on how it minds me of that movie. You don't think he is the Anti- Christ do you? : Unsure: blink: whistle: Ok, Dorothy gets hold of your self you paranormal is getting to you.
Dotty, don't be drawing any conclusions to that. All politicians want to be loved. Besides the movie The Omen is just a movie based on nothing but being a horror movie. There is no truth in it.
Wait! there is an anti- christ out there and I think I know who it is. But, I can't tell it is my Secret. :unsure:
Edited by Dorfliedot, Nov 5 2008, 07:31 AM.
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JeffLynnesBeard
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beatlechick
Nov 5 2008, 07:24 AM
Mia, the thought is that the Republicans will be grooming Palin for 2012.
Well, that should guarantee that Obama serves the full eight years.

Go for it, Republicans!

My thoughts are that this is probably the first and last time we'll see Sarah Palin being touted for a serious political job. Any intelligent Republican would surely know by now that she's only good for attracting the lowest common denominator voter.

I believe she cost more votes than she won.
...and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
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FamousGroupie
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Mate, I'm having a good old ding-dong with this girl. Something about losing freedom of speech (a civil liberty and not negotiable), the right to vote (funny when you consider that not everbody bothers to vote, then b*tches about the outcome), and the right to bear arms.

Next, she'll be saying that Obama will sell you all into white slavery as an apology to his African American ancestors. :roll:
I don't believe in Bondi. I don't believe in rugby league. I believe in Yoko, John Lennon, the Lost Weekend and me.
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Dorfliedot
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Honestly I think bill on true blood should be president.
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Dorfliedot
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FamousGroupie
Nov 5 2008, 07:33 AM
Mate, I'm having a good old ding-dong with this girl. Something about losing freedom of speech (a civil liberty and not negotiable), the right to vote (funny when you consider that not everbody bothers to vote, then b*tches about the outcome), and the right to bear arms.

Next, she'll be saying that Obama will sell you all into white slavery as an apology to his African American ancestors. :roll:
I would keep the ding- dong to my self if I was you Clair. :lol:
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beatlechick
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FamousGroupie
Nov 5 2008, 07:33 AM
Next, she'll be saying that Obama will sell you all into white slavery as an apology to his African American ancestors. :roll:
Phew! That makes me safe! I have Mexican/Mexican Indian blood in me. Half that and half eastern European, so I'm okay!

What ridiculous people. I guess we will have to prove that a black man isn't out to get anybody and wants to have just as much free speech as everyone else does. I don't oppose the right to arm bears, either! :giggle:

Clare, kick her ass for me would ya?!?
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Dorfliedot
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Just the other day I swear a black man wanted to sleep with me. On the other hand, was that my imagination>? I think his name was... Oh, never mind
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FamousGroupie
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Her:
Quote:
 
Clare, do you think that the annointed one is going to gather us all together and sit down and sing kumbaya with us??? You need to wake up and smell the coffee honey. Life here is going to change. I am guessing the first thing to go is the freedom of speech. I predict guns will go next. I am evening thinking we are going to eventually lose the right to vote.
You think everyone is going to be happy when they figure out they still have to pay for their own gas and no one else is paying their mortgages???


Me:
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Life EVERYWHERE is going to change - Americans seem to think that they are the only country in the world, or at least the only one that matters. We don't have guns here - we deal with that quite happily. We still have freedom of speech - that's a civil liberty that no one can change. However, we hopefully now won't be needlessly killing young men just because another country won't share their oil. Why do Americans think that the rest of the world only exists to serve THEIR needs?


Her:
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Oh ho! We are in Iraq for the oil. Yeah, too bad they don't give us any. Maybe you should stop listing to the MSM and start to find out some real information.
Here in America, we are preparing to lose a lot. Why is half the country is so scared? G-d fearing people I should add. That war in Iraq is keeping our country safe. This guy is going to sit down with Iran and have no set preconditions. Oh wait a minute. He changed his mind on that one. OK, so he promised that he would not pressure Israel to have a divided Jerusalem. OHHH, NOPE. A few days later when others were upset with that comment he said that is not what he meant. Let's see. I know. He made a statement by not wearing a flag pin. Oh, nope. Can't keep to that. When he saw it wasn't helping him politically, he put one on. Lies about not killing live babies. Lies about gun control. He changes his mind as much as he changes his socks
Why discuss it with you anyway? You like him so much, you can have him.


Me:
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Well, you got him for at least four years now. Deal with it.... honey.


Her:
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Ah, Clare Sweetie, I am NOT going to deal with him. I am moving out of the country. Funny thing is, one of the places my brother told me to go to was Australia!


Me:
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How very mature. You can f*ck off - we're full.
I don't believe in Bondi. I don't believe in rugby league. I believe in Yoko, John Lennon, the Lost Weekend and me.
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Dorfliedot
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Hey, there was to many me and her in your post that I couldn't till who was what.
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Dorfliedot
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Ah! ah! you all run hide. because, I am on.
Edited by Dorfliedot, Nov 5 2008, 07:54 AM.
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JeffLynnesBeard
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If you stick to the subject at hand, Dotty, I'm sure people would be delighted to talk to you. ^_^
...and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
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beatlechick
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Well I hope that she does leave the US. Be one less fool to worry about! Let her see that other countries are just as screwed up as the US is. Does she really think that Americans are naive enough to think that others will pay for our mortgages, which btw is something McCain was talking about doing, and pay for our gas?

Unfortunately, Clare, there are a lot of Americans who think we are the world's power. That our countries will do anything to do our bidding. Therefore, the US can be like sh*t to them and they have to like it because we are the mighty and powerful US.
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Dorfliedot
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JeffLynnesBeard
Nov 5 2008, 07:55 AM
If you stick to the subject at hand, Dotty, I'm sure people would be delighted to talk to you. ^_^
Ok. obama he is the man he can prisident like no other can
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Dorfliedot
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Personally, I think you all take this election stuff to personally. That is my opinion. I think there are more important things in this world. Like family and bills. In addition, other things.
Edited by Dorfliedot, Nov 5 2008, 08:04 AM.
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JeffLynnesBeard
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Dorothy
Nov 5 2008, 08:03 AM
Personally, I think you all take this election stuff to personally. That is my opinion. I think there are more important things in this world. Like family and bills. In addition, other things.
Thing is, Dotty, the outcome of this (and every) election directly affects things like family issues and bills. You may not see the relvance of politics when you look at your own life, but there is so much of everyone's life which could be either better or worse depending on who is running your country.

It matters. I like to see people getting passionate about politics and caring. There has been way too much political apathy in my lifetime and I think it is wonderful that all sides care so much that they want to talk about it and do something about it.
...and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
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BlueMolly2009
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The only thing I don't like is how personal these things can get. People can be passionate all they want, but when it comes to name calling and stuff like that, that's where I draw the line. You can have your disagreements, but keep it civil.
Edited by BlueMolly2009, Nov 5 2008, 08:11 AM.
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Bill
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Clare, never argue with a mug. ;)

The irony is that all the right-wingers talking about exodus are looking at countries that are far more liberal even in their most conservative moments than America has been under any Democrat.
Put a puppet on it.
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Dorfliedot
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JeffLynnesBeard
Nov 5 2008, 08:07 AM
Dorothy
Nov 5 2008, 08:03 AM
Personally, I think you all take this election stuff to personally. That is my opinion. I think there are more important things in this world. Like family and bills. In addition, other things.
Thing is, Dotty, the outcome of this (and every) election directly affects things like family issues and bills. You may not see the relvance of politics when you look at your own life, but there is so much of everyone's life which could be either better or worse depending on who is running your country.

It matters. I like to see people getting passionate about politics and caring. There has been way too much political apathy in my lifetime and I think it is wonderful that all sides care so much that they want to talk about it and do something about it.
What I saw was Andy was people getting upset with other if they did not see their point of view. I see what you do not. I see things in different way then others. Maybe, that is why I am different from all of you. I do not see the world in all you views. I see what has happen and shall come. I do not see peace or solution. I see revelation.
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JeffLynnesBeard
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Mmm.... OK then.
...and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
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FamousGroupie
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That's all right - she doesn't seem to understand that for some reason what goes on in America seems to affect every country - so by moving she really won't be 'safe from Barack Obama', as she puts it. She'll still be dealing with America's policies, albeit filtered.

I would just like to see her sulk for the next four years.

I don't believe in Bondi. I don't believe in rugby league. I believe in Yoko, John Lennon, the Lost Weekend and me.
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Dorfliedot
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JeffLynnesBeard
Nov 5 2008, 08:16 AM
Mmm.... OK then.
Ok, i am not Wierd you know. .Maybe, sort of. :lol:
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BlueMolly2009
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I think what Dotty is trying to say is that people got a bit too emotional and got really upset and sometimes person if others didn't go their way. This is why I really try to stay away from politics, because people don't seem to want to be civil and respectful with each other. They just want to go to a very low level.
I think we all should listen to both what McCain and Obama said. It's time to stop with the bickering and try to work together. Do you think Obama is wrong for saying that? Do you think partisanship is the best way to deal with things? I personally don't think so.

Yeah, I'm sounding like a broken record, but this is how I'm feeling at the point.
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JeffLynnesBeard
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I think you're over-simplifying things a little, Molly. Not everyone talks about politics in the same way or reacts the same way if their views are challenged. Some people take it personally, when it isn't actually personal. Thing is, when political views are tied in so intrinsically with their personalities, a challenge or debunk of a political view can feel like a personal insult, when, in reality, it isn't. I think you do the majority of contributors to this thread a disservice when you say that people just want to take it to the lowest level - that's simply not true.

I'm neither Republican nor Democrat. I prefer to talk about my views on an issue by issue basis, but I can certainly tell you which Presidential candidate would serve my particular interests more. People talking about working together and trying to get over partisan politics is very noble and worthy, of course, but some views are naturally opposing and compromises on some issues are very difficult, if not impossible, to work out. I'm sure that Obama and McCain have the greatest intentions, but just watch the reality a couple of months into Obama's Presidency - there will be at least as much bi-partisanship as there was before. It's the nature of politics.

I welcome the participation of any member in any political thread, but it isn't particularly helpful to have members who don't take part in the political discussion telling those who do how to conduct themselves. It also isn't helpful to hear people dismissing the importance or relevence of politics to their lives - all of this affects us all and the more informed we are, the better.

All I can personally say is that it doesn't matter who I disagree with politically - be it Mary Ann, Ron or anyone else, I generally leave things that happen in political threads in the political threads and don't allow it to cloud any other discussions we may have. Mary Ann is a sweet, kind, warm lady. Ron is a talented musician with good taste in music who also has a great sense of humour. I recognise all of these things and see people for the whole of their personalities, not just their political views. I hope people are able to do the same with me.
...and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
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Monkey Chow
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beep beep m beep beep yeah
Oh, well, congrats to Obama. While I understand the anti-Bush sentiment in the country, I still don't understand the hard turn to the left. All things must pass, I guess.
Everybody's got something to hide 'cept for me and my monkey.
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Monkey Chow
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JeffLynnesBeard
Nov 5 2008, 09:09 AM
Ron is a talented musician with good taste in music who also has a great sense of humour.
Thank you.
Everybody's got something to hide 'cept for me and my monkey.
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Queenbee
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I voted for Obama and my husband voted for McCain. He is a staunch Republican. He blames the democrats for all our problems. Now to research and prove him it's not just Democrats.

PEACE and love to my friends, Judy

When the Power of Love over comes the Love of Power, the world will know Peace.
-Sri Chinmnoy Ghose

Till me meet again ~ I Love you Mike! You were one of a kind.
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pood for paul

I never get involved in political discussions, because more often than not, they turn ugly.
I do not ridicule anyone's candidate, and expect the same courtesy in return. That is the wonderful thing about free choice.

I do know that my state, (Michigan) could not survive another 4 years of a Republican president, and that came out loud and clear, in this election.

To say (paraphrasing here) that our new President looks "like a monkey" is childish and immature-and I'm thinking the person that made those remarks is not intelligent enough to get their thoughts across any other way.

I hope that President Obama will be successful in repairing the some of the damage done by George Bush, but it will take more than one term, I'm afraid...........
"Hey Jude, don't make it bad...
Take a sad song, and make it better..."
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Jacaranda
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JeffLynnesBeard
Nov 5 2008, 09:09 AM
All I can personally say is that it doesn't matter who I disagree with politically - be it Mary Ann, Ron or anyone else, I generally leave things that happen in political threads in the political threads and don't allow it to cloud any other discussions we may have. Mary Ann is a sweet, kind, warm lady. Ron is a talented musician with good taste in music who also has a great sense of humour. I recognise all of these things and see people for the whole of their personalities, not just their political views. I hope people are able to do the same with me.
Thank you Andy. We are all more than what we write in one thread, no matter what the subject is.

Everyone here is more than what they write on this whole board as well, and we deserve respect and courtesy. We are all more than just our political views. While I do not necessarily agree with what they've said, I defend Ron, Maryann and Heidi's right to say what they think. That right is essential to democratic ideals and our freedoms as Americans.

And this is from Obama's acceptance speech, by way of Abraham Lincoln, both speaking of all Americans, a saying I feel is quite appropriate: "We are not enemies, but friends."
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"If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through." General Melchett, Blackadder Goes Forth




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Beatlesaholic
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Me At Thanksgiving On November 24, 2011.
I Don't Trust Obama When He Is President!
Paul John George Ringo Are My Favorite Beatles!

The Beatles Rule!!!!!

Beatles Biggest Fan Kirsten

Julian Lennon Biggest Fan

RIP John Lennon

RIP George Harrison

RIP Maurice Gibb

RIP Andy Gibb

RIP Michael Jackson

RIP Grandpa Nick

RIP Grandma Tess

My Favorite Beatles Movie And Album Is A Hard Day's Night & My Favorite Paul McCartney Album Is Good Evening New York City!

Gold Strawberry: BeatlesBiggestFan (16 votes)

:beatles:









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JeffLynnesBeard
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BeatlesBiggestFan
Nov 5 2008, 05:08 PM
I Don't Trust Obama When He Is President!
Well, never mind Kirsten. Millions of Americans didn't trust George W. Bush for eight long years, but America still survived. Not all of its citizens did, of course... but we won't go down that route.

Take some heart from the words John McCain said in his classy concession speech;

John McCain
November 4th 2008
I urge all Americans who supported me to join me in not just congratulating him, but offering our next president our goodwill and earnest effort to find ways to come together, to find the necessary compromises, to bridge our differences and help restore our prosperity, defend our security in a dangerous world, and leave our children and grandchildren a stronger, better country than we inherited.


...and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
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JeffLynnesBeard
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Jacaranda
Nov 5 2008, 03:54 PM
Everyone here is more than what they write on this whole board as well, and we deserve respect and courtesy. We are all more than just our political views. While I do not necessarily agree with what they've said, I defend Ron, Maryann and Heidi's right to say what they think. That right is essential to democratic ideals and our freedoms as Americans.

And this is from Obama's acceptance speech, by way of Abraham Lincoln, both speaking of all Americans, a saying I feel is quite appropriate: "We are not enemies, but friends."
Nicely said, Lisa. Further to that, I would also like to add that without the input of those who have differing opinions, not only would this board be dull, but none of us would be able to make progress on some of the issues that face us.

I have learned a lot about a vast array of different issues and my stance on some of those issues have changed. Without the different abortion debates, for example, it is probable that I wouldn't have spent so much time reading up on the fact, listening to varying opinions and refining my views.

Without this Presidential debate, I wouldn't be able to touch base with 'ordinary' people across America (although you're all kinda special to me) and hear what their thoughts are as the campaign unfolds. That kind of insight, from regular people instead of political pundits, is completely invaluable. I may not always have liked what I've heard and have been disheartened at some of the political mud throwing - from supporters of both sides (in general, not at this forum), but have generally been heartened by the way that everyone here has conducted themselves.

I have witnessed a real will by the members here to discuss and debate this civilly. Of course, tempers have occasionally frayed, but considering the stake of this debate, that was always going to happen. Put it this way, I have seen worse. Much, much worse. I hope everyone who was friends before this election remains friends now.

Thank you to everyone who has contributed to this thread, whatever their view. It has been one of the most lively and interesting threads we have ever had on this board... and if you'd have just had a bunch of Obama supporters and no-one for McCain on it - well, I don't think it would have been half as interesting. Maybe not ever a quarter. :)
...and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
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Dorfliedot
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My problem is… I did not get to vote. I got stuck baby sitting. Now, crucify me. :blush:
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Bag O' Nails
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LapisLee
Nov 5 2008, 05:28 AM
Finally, I am proud to be an American.
:o
Reminded me of what the future first lady once said....
I've ALWAYS been proud to be an American! :clap:
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One sweet dream came true....London & Liverpool '08
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maccascruff
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I have sent Mary Ann a PM.

Watch this beautiful piece:

Here Comes the Sun (America The Promise Land)

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x7apfm_here-comes-the-sun-indivo_music

I thought McCain's concession speech was very nicely done and very tactful.

Believe me, I do know about disappointment. I shed tears of great fear and disappointment in 2000 and 2004. Last night's tears and those of this morning are still happy tears.

I know it won't be easy, but change is coming. I can hardly wait for January 20, 2009.
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Bag O' Nails
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MaccaMomma
Kudos to President-elect Obama for a campaign well-run and executed. Only time will tell if America was right. He may want to represent "those who didn't vote for him" (like me); he may say he will "listen to us" and "needs us;" he may promise to "reach across the table," but I somehow highly doubt that Pelosi and Reed and the rest of the ruling Democratic will be willing to rule from the center.

Kudos to John McCain; the mere fact that he was a Republican running after a very non-popular Republican in the White House was almost an impossible task. He gave a very gracious concession speech, and I couldn't have been prouder to have voted for him! :clap:

NBC reported that Obama earned 62.98 million votes nationwide and McCain, 55.78 million; the numbers weren't that bad for McCain, so I'd like to think that there are still a fair number of people out there that still have a conservative slant.



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JeffLynnesBeard
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With every victory, there comes a disappointment.

Looks like Prop. 8 in California passed. :-/
...and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
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BlueMolly2009
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Don't get me started on Prop 8. I'll just say that the fight isn't over. I don't live in California, but the passing on Prop 8 makes my heart sink.
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Aimee Wilbury
STOP CHANGING THIS ADMINS
I had been following the election. I didnt post here as I didn't want to get involved in the fights, but i'll say im glad how it turned out.
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bluemeanie
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is now a happily married woman x
can anyone enlighten me why North Carolina and Missouri still havent turned blue or red ???
Jayne x

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is loving life and is so happy xxx
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Monkey Chow
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beep beep m beep beep yeah
bluemeanie
Nov 5 2008, 11:58 PM
can anyone enlighten me why North Carolina and Missouri still havent turned blue or red ???
So close they can't call them. Fortunately, the race was not so close that it matters.

(I mean that. you know I am conservative and supported McCain but this country doesn't need the divisive crap we had in 2000 with the uncertainty about who won. Maybe some healing will go on.)
Edited by Monkey Chow, Nov 6 2008, 12:11 AM.
Everybody's got something to hide 'cept for me and my monkey.
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bluemeanie
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is now a happily married woman x
with livin in the UK i dont know what went on in the past (sorry) but will it ever be revealed how them states voted ?? if so is there a time limit??
Jayne x

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beep beep m beep beep yeah
It will. It will probably take a few days to count all the regular votes, absentee ballots, and provisionals as they all will matter.
Everybody's got something to hide 'cept for me and my monkey.
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BlueMolly2008
Nov 5 2008, 07:34 PM
Don't get me started on Prop 8. I'll just say that the fight isn't over. I don't live in California, but the passing on Prop 8 makes my heart sink.
You should hear how it is being talked about it here. So many people elated with the Presidential election but it is a bittersweet win with Prop 8 passing. A lesbian couple has started a lawsuit against Prop. 8 while others are stating that there is still about a million or so votes to be counted yet and will not allow the election be called. It has pretty much been tears of joy and tears of sorrow here all day.
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Bag O' Nails
Nov 5 2008, 07:02 PM
Kudos to President-elect Obama for a campaign well-run and executed. Only time will tell if America was right. He may want to represent "those who didn't vote for him" (like me); he may say he will "listen to us" and "needs us;" he may promise to "reach across the table," but I somehow highly doubt that Pelosi and Reed and the rest of the ruling Democratic will be willing to rule from the center.

For the most part, you don't know that Obama will not be doing the reaching. And please don't generalize the ruling Democrats as not willing to rule from the center. I could go ahead and state just the opposite, but that would be a generalization.

I fully understand Lapislee when he says he is proud to be an American, now. I, too have always been proud to be an American but then this election has shown that most Americans were willing to overlook his black skin and funny name. They were willing to overlook those barriers, totally jumped over them, and elected Barack Hussein Obama a black American with a Muslim name. That, my friends, is a huge thing that is making us proud - VERY PROUD! The willingness to see past our racist past and look to the future walking side-by-side is a very humbling ideal that is now being realized.
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maccascruff
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Humorous video:

http://www.theonion.com/content/video/obama_win_causes_obsessive?utm_source=EMTF_Onion


And a serious article by the daughter of George Wallace

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/11/03/wallace.kennedy.obama/index.html?iref=newssearch
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beatlechick
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Wow, beautiful article.
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I am actually proud of my country again. And it feels great.
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Bill
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Nov 5 2008, 05:08 PM
I Don't Trust Obama When He Is President!
Because?
Put a puppet on it.
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beatlechick
Nov 6 2008, 01:35 AM



Quote:
 
For the most part, you don't know that Obama will not be doing the reaching. And please don't generalize the ruling Democrats as not willing to rule from the center. I could go ahead and state just the opposite, but that would be a generalization.


Read what I said again; I stated that I hoped he would do the reaching, but that I doubted that many of the other dems would be as willing. Case in point; I just heard that Obama has offered Rahm "Rahmbo" Emanuel to be his Chief of Staff...not exactly the kind of guy who works easily across the table. :whistle:

Quote:
 
I fully understand Lapislee when he says he is proud to be an American, now. I, too have always been proud to be an American but then this election has shown that most Americans were willing to overlook his black skin and funny name. They were willing to overlook those barriers, totally jumped over them, and elected Barack Hussein Obama a black American with a Muslim name. That, my friends, is a huge thing that is making us proud - VERY PROUD! The willingness to see past our racist past and look to the future walking side-by-side is a very humbling ideal that is now being realized.


Well to make a blanket statement like that is easily misconstrued as basing ones pride depending on who is in office. Again, I will say I have always been proud to be an American, no matter who was in office and whether or not I voted for them.

While I do see the historical importance of Obama being the first African American to win the presidency, now that he has been elected, it's "ok" to mention his race whereas before, if race was mentioned, we were told we that race didn't matter.
Obama's race had no bearing on my opinion of him.
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BlueMolly2008
Nov 5 2008, 07:34 PM
Don't get me started on Prop 8. I'll just say that the fight isn't over. I don't live in California, but the passing on Prop 8 makes my heart sink.
And it never will be. No matter how many times the people vote for "traditional" marriage, this will be put on the ballot over and over again until one day it will pass. And until then, it will be in litigation. :huh:

California isn't the only state that passed a prop like this. In all reality, what's the big deal? If gay people want to live together in domestic partnership, nobody is stopping them! They still have rights! And if they really must have a "marriage license" they can move to another state that allows it.

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JeffLynnesBeard
Nov 5 2008, 07:04 PM
With every victory, there comes a disappointment.

Looks like Prop. 8 in California passed. :-/
Not everything goes as desired... ;)

I posted seperately about Prop 8, but I'm concerned with 2 other props...

Prop 2: deals with the treatment of farm animals including calves, pigs and chickens. (63% YES ~ 36.9% NO)

Prop 4: Parental Notification for abortion on minors (52% NO ~ 48% YES)

LA Times

Reporting from Sacramento -- It was a good day for chickens...
Voters may have banned same-sex marriage, but they rejected a measure that would have required parents to be notified before a girl could obtain an abortion.

If you look at the maps on how the counties voted, you will see that the ones that passed Prop 2 voted against Prop 4, and vice versa.

Since when did the welfare of chickens and pigs become more important than protecting the rights of a minor to have a serious medical procedure without parent notification? For cryin' out loud, the school nurse can't even give your kid an aspirin or a Tums without written permission...yet an abortion can be secretly done?

Someone please help me understand.

FYI...I voted YES on both these props!
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Nov 5 2008, 06:39 PM
LapisLee
Nov 5 2008, 05:28 AM
Finally, I am proud to be an American.
:o
Reminded me of what the future first lady once said....
I've ALWAYS been proud to be an American! :clap:
I was embarrassed by a lot of things our country did during the Bush administration, just as I was during the Nixon administration. I don't agree with everything any President has done, but I thought those two in particular made us look worse in the world's opinion.
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Bill
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Nov 6 2008, 05:17 AM


Read what I said again; I stated that I hoped he would do the reaching, but that I doubted that many of the other dems would be as willing. Case in point; I just heard that Obama has offered Rahm "Rahmbo" Emanuel to be his Chief of Staff...not exactly the kind of guy who works easily across the table. :whistle:
He's made ONE appointment and you're ready to judge his administration?
Is that an example of reaching across the table?

Let's be clear on something: it's going to take willingness from both sides to co-operate but it only take one side to destroy such co-operation.
To the Republicans among us, I ask, Do you actually want this to work? Or are you looking for the first excuse to write his presidency off before it has even started?

Let's be honest - if John McCain had won, even by the slimmest of margins, there would be people here saying, "He won. Get over it. And now he has a mandate to govern as he sees fit and all you liberals should just shut up and deal with it."

Am I right? Be honest. ;)

One appointment, does not a cabinet make. Obama has vowed a bipartisan cabinet and he's going to look pretty stupid if he doesn't make good on that promise - once he's had a chance to make good on it. I would hope that there might be a place for John McCain in there, should he choose to accept it.
Put a puppet on it.
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Adilah
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Congratulations to Mr. Obama. It appears the will of the American people was finally heard.
"We call 10 American deaths a catastrophe. One hundred European deaths are a tragedy. One thousand Asian deaths are a shame. And 10,000 African deaths we call a Monday." - Lissa (1981-2007) ÇáÓáÇã Úáíßã æÑÍãÉ Çááå æÈÑßÇÊå
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Bill
Nov 6 2008, 04:06 AM
BeatlesBiggestFan
Nov 5 2008, 05:08 PM
I Don't Trust Obama When He Is President!
Because?
We have to face change. I guess, that is part of growing as union.
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maccascruff
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LapisLee
Nov 6 2008, 06:42 AM
Bag O' Nails
Nov 5 2008, 06:39 PM
LapisLee
Nov 5 2008, 05:28 AM
Finally, I am proud to be an American.
:o
Reminded me of what the future first lady once said....
I've ALWAYS been proud to be an American! :clap:
I was embarrassed by a lot of things our country did during the Bush administration, just as I was during the Nixon administration. I don't agree with everything any President has done, but I thought those two in particular made us look worse in the world's opinion.
Same here. I've traveled overseas wishing that I didn't have an American passport or accent because I was embarrassed.
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JeffLynnesBeard
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Looks like Obama has taken North Carolina. :yes: :thumbsup:

Missouri still undecided.
...and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
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maccascruff
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I hope Betsy did us proud.
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It's a real shame that Missouri are all on their own in still being undecided.

We all know that Missouri loves company.
...and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
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Bag O' Nails
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maccascruff
Nov 6 2008, 06:21 PM
I've traveled overseas wishing that I didn't have an American passport or accent because I was embarrassed.
:blink:
Sorry, I simply cannot understand that mentality. :no: Just because I may not have liked or agreed with everything the current administration did has no bearing on my American pride!
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Nov 5 2008, 03:10 PM
To say (paraphrasing here) that our new President looks "like a monkey" is childish and immature-and I'm thinking the person that made those remarks is not intelligent enough to get their thoughts across any other way.

I hope that President Obama will be successful in repairing the some of the damage done by George Bush, but it will take more than one term, I'm afraid...........
Childish and immature? No, it's ignorance. A person who makes this type of comment should go back to school to learn history. African slaves gave their blood to build what today is known as Americas and people are still racist? They should be grateful. Americas and Europe still owe a social debt to the African-American slaves and their descendants, let's not forget, another reason why people should think twice before opening their mouth to discriminate black people or anybody else. If she was in my country saying bullsh*t like that, "the president looks like a monkey" she would be in trouble because I WOULD report her. Discrimination is crime there. It has nothing to do with freedom of speech. If you can't open your mouth to add anything to the world, don't open it or face the consequences.

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hear,hear,LS. Theres just so many idiotic and ignorant people around.

And ,the KKK can take their Halloween costumes to hell with them.
Listen to the colour of your dreams
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I just have to say that my emotions these last few days have been inexplicable. Fear creeping in on my faith only as the time got nearer. Going to bed the night before, tossing and turning and then getting up as soon as I heard a car go by and knowing the results must be in... it was like the most terrifying Christmas Eve ever! My relief and excitement and pride. I am so happy.

I was incredibly let down that California decided (very closely) to take away the right for gays to marry and basically to feel like human beings. As though it said, 'Think we're hip and progessive in this blue beach town? Well, we'll show you!' It's one thing to make the decision in the first place but to snatch it away when all it did was bring joy disgusts me beyond belief. Who on earth sat there fuming the entire time it was legal, waiting for this moment? 11000 gay marriages in California since then - what does that tell you? They believe they should be able to.

But, no. We forbid it.
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Bag O' Nails
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Nov 6 2008, 10:00 PM
I just have to say that my emotions these last few days have been inexplicable. Fear creeping in on my faith only as the time got nearer. Going to bed the night before, tossing and turning and then getting up as soon as I heard a car go by and knowing the results must be in... it was like the most terrifying Christmas Eve ever! My relief and excitement and pride. I am so happy.

I was incredibly let down that California decided (very closely) to take away the right for gays to marry and basically to feel like human beings. As though it said, 'Think we're hip and progessive in this blue beach town? Well, we'll show you!' It's one thing to make the decision in the first place but to snatch it away when all it did was bring joy disgusts me beyond belief. Who on earth sat there fuming the entire time it was legal, waiting for this moment? 11000 gay marriages in California since then - what does that tell you? They believe they should be able to.

But, no. We forbid it.
Just like the election of Obama, the people have voted and the majority has spoken...and it's not the first time.

I don't see the losers of any of the other propositions out there protesting...
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I believe this particular prop. was more to do with morals than any of the others, except for the farm animals of course.

I don't think for a second that there was any sort of shadowy figure rigging the vote, I am just disappointed in people. Extremely. I know that one day it will be legal again; I just suppose an African-American president and equality for gays was too much to ask for in one election.
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Nov 6 2008, 09:40 PM
pood for paul
Nov 5 2008, 03:10 PM
To say (paraphrasing here) that our new President looks "like a monkey" is childish and immature-and I'm thinking the person that made those remarks is not intelligent enough to get their thoughts across any other way.
Childish and immature? No, it's ignorance. A person who makes this type of comment should go back to school to learn history... If she was in my country saying bullsh*t like that, "the president looks like a monkey" she would be in trouble because I WOULD report her. Discrimination is crime there. It has nothing to do with freedom of speech.

I'm not defending whoever this person was who said these things about Obama...but I recall many people (some here) poking fun and posting pictures of President Bush looking like a chimp!

Should they have been arrested and gone back to school, too? :whistle:
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Nov 6 2008, 10:13 PM
I believe this particular prop. was more to do with morals than any of the others, except for the farm animals of course.

I don't think for a second that there was any sort of shadowy figure rigging the vote, I am just disappointed in people. Extremely. I know that one day it will be legal again; I just suppose an African-American president and equality for gays was too much to ask for in one election.
If the farm animal prop didn't pass, should there have been protesting, too?

What about the prop for notification of minors having abortions?

If you go back a page, I posted a question about these...nobody has responded...I'd like to hear opinions about that.
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Yes, there should be protesting if prop. 2 didn't pass. If not from anyone else, certainly from me. I don't know which exact post you're referring to on the previous page but I agree: I don't know why animals were given their basic rights (and, in fact, several key rights passed this time around) and yet a large group of humans could not ask to retain theirs. It has puzzled me.
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Bill
Nov 6 2008, 06:46 AM








Quote:
 
He's made ONE appointment and you're ready to judge his administration?
Is that an example of reaching across the table?

Not only one appointment, but his first and very important one! If this is indicative of the type of people he will surround himself with, I certainly am making a judgement! Isn't Rahm the one who during the Clinton days said, "Republicans can go f*ck themselves!" :ponder: Yeah, Rhambo will reach across the table. :whistle: Hopefully we will see Obama appoint some more people from the center.

Oh, and let's see what happens to Joe Lieberman.... :ponder:

Quote:
 
Let's be clear on something: it's going to take willingness from both sides to co-operate but it only take one side to destroy such co-operation.

Yes, that was quite evident when Bush was narrowly elected. ;) :roll:

Quote:
 
To the Republicans among us, I ask, Do you actually want this to work? Or are you looking for the first excuse to write his presidency off before it has even started?

What kind of a question is that?! :blink: Certainly we want our country to survive and prosper! But don't think that we will automatically lovingly embrace everything Obama does. When he does something we agree with, we will support him. When he doesn't, we will disagree.

Quote:
 
Let's be honest - if John McCain had won, even by the slimmest of margins, there would be people here saying, "He won. Get over it. And now he has a mandate to govern as he sees fit and all you liberals should just shut up and deal with it."

If McCain won, the outcry would be loud from the other side and you can bet there would be protesting, complaining, and re-counts!

Quote:
 
I would hope that there might be a place for John McCain in there, should he choose to accept it.

One can only hope....
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Nov 6 2008, 10:26 PM
Yes, there should be protesting if prop. 2 didn't pass. If not from anyone else, certainly from me. I don't know which exact post you're referring to on the previous page but I agree: I don't know why animals were given their basic rights (and, in fact, several key rights passed this time around) and yet a large group of humans could not ask to retain theirs. It has puzzled me.


SEE BELOW
Edited by Bag O' Nails, Nov 6 2008, 10:44 PM.
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Nov 6 2008, 05:45 AM
JeffLynnesBeard
Nov 5 2008, 07:04 PM
With every victory, there comes a disappointment.

Looks like Prop. 8 in California passed. :-/
Not everything goes as desired... ;)

I posted seperately about Prop 8, but I'm concerned with 2 other props...

Prop 2: deals with the treatment of farm animals including calves, pigs and chickens. (63% YES ~ 36.9% NO)

Prop 4: Parental Notification for abortion on minors (52% NO ~ 48% YES)

LA Times

Reporting from Sacramento -- It was a good day for chickens...
Voters may have banned same-sex marriage, but they rejected a measure that would have required parents to be notified before a girl could obtain an abortion.

If you look at the maps on how the counties voted, you will see that the ones that passed Prop 2 voted against Prop 4, and vice versa.

Since when did the welfare of chickens and pigs become more important than protecting the rights of a minor to have a serious medical procedure without parent notification? For cryin' out loud, the school nurse can't even give your kid an aspirin or a Tums without written permission...yet an abortion can be secretly done?

Someone please help me understand.

FYI...I voted YES on both these props!
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Nov 6 2008, 10:15 PM
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Nov 6 2008, 09:40 PM
pood for paul
Nov 5 2008, 03:10 PM
To say (paraphrasing here) that our new President looks "like a monkey" is childish and immature-and I'm thinking the person that made those remarks is not intelligent enough to get their thoughts across any other way.
Childish and immature? No, it's ignorance. A person who makes this type of comment should go back to school to learn history... If she was in my country saying bullsh*t like that, "the president looks like a monkey" she would be in trouble because I WOULD report her. Discrimination is crime there. It has nothing to do with freedom of speech.

I'm not defending whoever this person was who said these things about Obama...but I recall many people (some here) poking fun and posting pictures of President Bush looking like a chimp!

Should they have been arrested and gone back to school, too? :whistle:
People were making fun of Sarah Palin spelling and I didn't agree, maybe you missed it.

Firstly, racism doesn't affect white people like it affects black people.

Secondly, she called him "monkey" because of his ancestry, that's racism and in MY COUNTRY, she would be sued not arrested.

Calling George W. Bush a chimp is not nice but his government was so chaotic and literally bloody maybe that's why he is jokeable.

I don't think these voters who said they wouldn't vote for Obama because he is black know what they are talking about. Knowledge is always welcome. What's wrong with going back to school? If people are ignorant about something, they need to educate themselves.
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Nov 6 2008, 10:46 PM







Quote:
 
People were making fun of Sarah Palin spelling and I didn't agree, maybe you missed it.
I did, and it's nice to know you didn't agree with it.


Quote:
 
Firstly, racism doesn't affect white people like it affects black people.
True.

Quote:
 
Secondly, she called him "monkey" because of his ancestry, that's racism and in MY COUNTRY, she would be sued not arrested.
I thought it was because of his ears (that's what some people have said); and yes, calling him a monkey due to his ancestry (or his looks) is not good in my book, either!

Quote:
 
Calling George W. Bush a chimp is not nice but his government was so chaotic and literally bloody maybe that's why he is jokeable.
Unfortunately, everyone is susceptible to being mocked.

I was just trying to point out a double-standard. ;)
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I know Heidi. Unfortunately many people have to face discrimination everyday in both sides.
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maccascruff
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Bag O' Nails
Nov 6 2008, 09:36 PM
maccascruff
Nov 6 2008, 06:21 PM
I've traveled overseas wishing that I didn't have an American passport or accent because I was embarrassed.
:blink:
Sorry, I simply cannot understand that mentality. :no: Just because I may not have liked or agreed with everything the current administration did has no bearing on my American pride!
Apparently you weren't traveling overseas when it was very unpopular to be an American and you did not get treated very well.
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maccascruff
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I never made fun of Palin's spelling, but I did of her pronunciation. I would do it again if she runs for national office. It is one of many things she needs to learn--along with foreign policy.
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Bill
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Nov 6 2008, 09:36 PM
maccascruff
Nov 6 2008, 06:21 PM
I've traveled overseas wishing that I didn't have an American passport or accent because I was embarrassed.
:blink:
Sorry, I simply cannot understand that mentality. :no: Just because I may not have liked or agreed with everything the current administration did has no bearing on my American pride!
I think there might be some confusion here between pride in being American and pride in America.

Linda, you should never be ashamed to be an American no matter how ashamed you may be of America's behaviour.
There is a distinction and most of us furreners are sophisticated enough to get it. ;)

I may have been ashamed of John Howard, but it never made me ashamed to be Australian. I was proud of the opportunity afforded by places like this and the Maccaboard to explain that the little dweeb didn't speak for all of us and none of us hold the Bush administration against Americans at large. Politics should never be personal.

Remember that those who are remembered as the greatest patriots of all are not the ones who said, "my country, right or wrong." They're the ones who said, "My country IS wrong and now we're going to put it right!"

There's nothing unpatriotic about any American holding their head a little higher this week.
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Bill
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Nov 6 2008, 10:15 PM
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Nov 6 2008, 09:40 PM
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Nov 5 2008, 03:10 PM
To say (paraphrasing here) that our new President looks "like a monkey" is childish and immature-and I'm thinking the person that made those remarks is not intelligent enough to get their thoughts across any other way.
Childish and immature? No, it's ignorance. A person who makes this type of comment should go back to school to learn history... If she was in my country saying bullsh*t like that, "the president looks like a monkey" she would be in trouble because I WOULD report her. Discrimination is crime there. It has nothing to do with freedom of speech.

I'm not defending whoever this person was who said these things about Obama...but I recall many people (some here) poking fun and posting pictures of President Bush looking like a chimp!

Should they have been arrested and gone back to school, too? :whistle:
Spot on, Heidi!

Okay, it would be naive to think that saying Obama looks like a chimp does not have racist overtones. But can we at least agree that saying anyone looks like a chimp for any reason is not cool?

I never had any time for the Bush/chimp comparisons. If that was the worst thing anyone could say about him, I'd be a very happy camper.
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maccascruff
Nov 7 2008, 12:18 AM
I never made fun of Palin's spelling, but I did of her pronunciation. I would do it again if she runs for national office. It is one of many things she needs to learn--along with foreign policy.
Would it be fair to mock her not knowing who the partied of NAFTA are?

North American Free Trade Agreement - how many could there be?
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Bag O' Nails
Nov 6 2008, 05:23 AM
BlueMolly2008
Nov 5 2008, 07:34 PM
Don't get me started on Prop 8. I'll just say that the fight isn't over. I don't live in California, but the passing on Prop 8 makes my heart sink.
And it never will be. No matter how many times the people vote for "traditional" marriage, this will be put on the ballot over and over again until one day it will pass. And until then, it will be in litigation. :huh:

California isn't the only state that passed a prop like this. In all reality, what's the big deal? If gay people want to live together in domestic partnership, nobody is stopping them! They still have rights! And if they really must have a "marriage license" they can move to another state that allows it.

You really don't understand! Of course they will have ALMOST all the rights of a married couple but what they really wanted was to have ALL the rights AS A MARRIED COUPLE! For you, there is little difference but for those who can not get a marriage license there is. YOU CAN get a marriage license. THEY CAN"T!

Let's turn this around. Seemingly this society is made up of the dark haired people, more dark haired than light haired that I see, so let's say the dark haired people CAN get married, marriage license and all, but tell the light haired people they can only have all the rights of a married couple but CAN NOT get that much sought after marriage license for whatever reasons there may be as governed by the dark hair society.

Sure the light haired people can live together domestically or they can darken their hair and join the dark haired society, but then roots will always show through eventually. Heidi, since you appear to be light haired and I am dark haired, than the discrimination applies to you and not me. I can marry as I please, but any of your domesticated partnerships are not legal. Now does that sound fair to you?

As for moving to another state, would you move to another state from one that you love for that license? That's hardly fair either.
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beatlechick
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Nov 6 2008, 05:17 AM
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I fully understand Lapislee when he says he is proud to be an American, now. I, too have always been proud to be an American but then this election has shown that most Americans were willing to overlook his black skin and funny name. They were willing to overlook those barriers, totally jumped over them, and elected Barack Hussein Obama a black American with a Muslim name. That, my friends, is a huge thing that is making us proud - VERY PROUD! The willingness to see past our racist past and look to the future walking side-by-side is a very humbling ideal that is now being realized.


Well to make a blanket statement like that is easily misconstrued as basing ones pride depending on who is in office. Again, I will say I have always been proud to be an American, no matter who was in office and whether or not I voted for them.

While I do see the historical importance of Obama being the first African American to win the presidency, now that he has been elected, it's "ok" to mention his race whereas before, if race was mentioned, we were told we that race didn't matter.
Obama's race had no bearing on my opinion of him.
Where is the blanket statement? This is what I have been hearing on the news, from people I know, and myself. The pride isn't coming from who was elected but from the fact that ANY person of color (there are many Mexican-Americans who are now stating that maybe soon a Mexican-American can be elected) was elected. Race, during the campaign, did not matter. I was not voting on race, Linda was not voting on race, Fiona was not voting on race, nobody I know (black. white, Asian, and Latino) were voting on race. So Obama's race was NOT AN ISSUE. But it is a basis on the pride many of us are feeling today. Again, that pride stems from the fact that a person of color (and one that still sees prejudice against them) was elected into a post that, up until now, was held by white men.

When JFK was elected, and at that time his religion WAS held against him, people were proud that an Irish-Catholic was elected into a post that was held by fundamental Christians.

The pride is always there but when a person of race or religion, and ones that have been beaten to death in the past for being that race or religion (and still goes on today), that pride gets stepped up and bursts forth. It also shows that a woman, a Jewish person, a Native American, a Mexican-American, and everyone else that populates the US CAN become President. This election showed it!
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beatlechick
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MaccaByrd
Nov 6 2008, 10:13 PM
I believe this particular prop. was more to do with morals than any of the others, except for the farm animals of course.

I don't think for a second that there was any sort of shadowy figure rigging the vote, I am just disappointed in people. Extremely. I know that one day it will be legal again; I just suppose an African-American president and equality for gays was too much to ask for in one election.
AMEN TO THAT, MY CALIFORNIAN SISTA!!
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Monkey Chow
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beep beep m beep beep yeah
beatlechick
Nov 7 2008, 01:37 AM
Bag O' Nails
Nov 6 2008, 05:23 AM
BlueMolly2008
Nov 5 2008, 07:34 PM
Don't get me started on Prop 8. I'll just say that the fight isn't over. I don't live in California, but the passing on Prop 8 makes my heart sink.
And it never will be. No matter how many times the people vote for "traditional" marriage, this will be put on the ballot over and over again until one day it will pass. And until then, it will be in litigation. :huh:

California isn't the only state that passed a prop like this. In all reality, what's the big deal? If gay people want to live together in domestic partnership, nobody is stopping them! They still have rights! And if they really must have a "marriage license" they can move to another state that allows it.

You really don't understand! Of course they will have ALMOST all the rights of a married couple but what they really wanted was to have ALL the rights AS A MARRIED COUPLE! For you, there is little difference but for those who can not get a marriage license there is. YOU CAN get a marriage license. THEY CAN"T!

Let's turn this around. Seemingly this society is made up of the dark haired people, more dark haired than light haired that I see, so let's say the dark haired people CAN get married, marriage license and all, but tell the light haired people they can only have all the rights of a married couple but CAN NOT get that much sought after marriage license for whatever reasons there may be as governed by the dark hair society.

Sure the light haired people can live together domestically or they can darken their hair and join the dark haired society, but then roots will always show through eventually. Heidi, since you appear to be light haired and I am dark haired, than the discrimination applies to you and not me. I can marry as I please, but any of your domesticated partnerships are not legal. Now does that sound fair to you?

As for moving to another state, would you move to another state from one that you love for that license? That's hardly fair either.
Just asking. Has marriage between members of the same sex ever been accepted by any society anywhere in time anywhere in the world? And what about civil unions as an alternative?
Everybody's got something to hide 'cept for me and my monkey.
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Bill
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And should the government have any say in it either way? ;)
Put a puppet on it.
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beatlechick
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Nov 6 2008, 05:45 AM
I posted seperately about Prop 8, but I'm concerned with 2 other props...

Prop 2: deals with the treatment of farm animals including calves, pigs and chickens. (63% YES ~ 36.9% NO)

Prop 4: Parental Notification for abortion on minors (52% NO ~ 48% YES)

If you look at the maps on how the counties voted, you will see that the ones that passed Prop 2 voted against Prop 4, and vice versa.

Since when did the welfare of chickens and pigs become more important than protecting the rights of a minor to have a serious medical procedure without parent notification? For cryin' out loud, the school nurse can't even give your kid an aspirin or a Tums without written permission...yet an abortion can be secretly done?

Someone please help me understand.

FYI...I voted YES on both these props!
This may help you understand why I voted no on Prop 4!

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/549316?rss

Purported Benefits, Risks and Potential Harms of Parental Consent Laws. Proponents of parental notification and consent laws argue that the decision to have an abortion is perhaps the biggest decision a minor can make, and that minors lack the emotional development to make such a decision without parental advice. They also contend that parents may be a significant source of support for teens undergoing an abortion, and that they may be able to talk a teen out of a decision she may later regret by advising to continue the pregnancy and give the resulting child up for adoption.[14] For teens with supportive parents, these arguments make sense, although one would hope that for those who communicate openly and honestly about reproductive matters with their parents, these laws would be unnecessary.

In states that do not have mandatory parental consent or notice requirements, data have shown that 61% of parents knew about their daughters' pregnancy.[15] Among minors who did not tell a parent about their abortion, 30% had experienced violence in their family, or feared violence or being forced to leave home.

Whether or not parental involvement laws reduce overall abortion rates remains controversial. Some data support a reduced rate in the state with a consent law but an increased rate in neighboring states, suggesting that teens travel outside their state of residence for the procedure.[15] A recent study from Texas[16] showed that its parental notification law was associated with a decline in abortion rates among those aged 15-17 years not accounted for by cross-border travel for abortion. However, the law was also associated with increased birth rates and rates of abortion during the second trimester of pregnancy among a subgroup aged 17.50-17.74 years at the time of conception. These findings suggest an increase in both unwanted childbearing and later-stage abortions (associated with a higher rate of complications) among older teens.

The notification required could have placed teens in danger, and further limited access to other reproductive health services. If the father was a relative or parent, or the teen's home life was otherwise abusive or unstable, requiring parental notification could increase the risk for violence.[14] It has been shown that nearly 50% of teens with a history of abuse reported being assaulted during their pregnancy, most often by a family member.[15]

These initiatives could have also increased the number of unwanted pregnancies, as well as rates of sexually transmitted infections (STIs). Reddy and colleagues[17] found that parental consent and notification laws for contraception could prevent as many as 50% of teens from using Planned Parenthood services, including counseling, contraception, and STI testing and treatment, while stopping only 1% from having sex. Mandatory parental notification for abortion, a related but somewhat different issue, could have a similarly chilling effect on teens' willingness to access a variety of reproductive health services.


I would hope that any daughter, or son, of mine would feel free to come and talk to me about stuff like this. Having had known kids that did not feel that freedom, I would rather they have someone they can talk to and get advise from than someone they can't talk to or fear repercussions from. I was one of the luckiest kids amongst my friends who had a mother who cared. Of my 4 or 5 close friends I was the only one who had that safety net. All of my other friends did not. Of my 3 closest friends, 2 got pregnant before leaving high school. If a minor does not have the emotional capacity for an abortion, how would they have an emotional capacity to have a baby? I would rather be a consent law however, I had a good situation and could feel free to talk to my mom (who when she was young was molested by her own dad and could not talk to her mom).
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beatlechick
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Ron, in answer to your question. As far as I know there never has been any acceptance of a same-sex marriage, unless in places like Africa where it has been more acceptable than the US and I do believe that Massachusetts still has it on their books. Civil unions is acceptable but, as my gay friends have said, it is not the same thing as being actually married. Civil unions are not legally binding either. They want to be known as a legally married couple and not a civil unioned couple.
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Fiona? I love your new avatar!
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Bill
Nov 7 2008, 02:18 AM
And should the government have any say in it either way? ;)
I say no. Stay out of my womb, my bedroom, and my coffin, damn it!
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It is always nice not to make fun of other. Even though we shouldn't we tend to do it.
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BlueMolly2009
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It's sad that people make fun of either side, but that's the way of the world. We need to get used to it, I guess.
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JeffLynnesBeard
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Analysis of the 'yes' on Prop. 8 in California in my newspaper this morning has explained that it is probably as a result of a higher African-American turnout in the election, many of whom are socially conservative, enough to tip the balance in favour of this proposition passing. That seems to make sense to me.

Of course, I'm disappointed in the outcome as it is a blow for true equality, but in a democracy, you have to accept the will of the people. There are legal challenges to the outcome of the ballot, but I think that those who support gay marriage would probably be better served by waiting until they can get this issue legitimately voted on again, that way they wouldn't be forcing the issue against the wishes of the majority of Californians who voted.

You have to respect the democratic process, not just when it goes your way.
Edited by JeffLynnesBeard, Nov 7 2008, 05:29 AM.
...and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
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JeffLynnesBeard
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As far as Prop. 4 goes, there were good arguments for and against that one but was generally swayed towards the 'no' decision because of the implications of enforced parental notification. Not everyone's parents are understanding, supportive or, indeed, non-violent. The child should be encouraged to talk to their parents or an understanding relative but if that isn't possible or they are too scared, then I disagree with the law jumping in and putting teachers or healthcare professionals in a very difficult position.

In a perfect world, full of understanding, supportive and caring parents, a 'yes' on Prop. 4 would be a no-brainer, but my experience of life has taught me that it would put lives at risk, even more so than a 'no' allegedly would.
...and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
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Bill
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Just for the exercise, I decided to do a little research.

Between the start of this thread, and the result there were Parliamentary and/or Presidential elections in

Senegal
Estonia
Northern Ireland
Mauritania
Finland
Benin
Timor-Leste
Nigeria
France
Syria
Mali
Bahamas
Scotland
Wales
Burkina Faso
Seychelles
Iceland
Armenia
Philippines
Algeria
Vietnam
Ireland
Belgium
Congo
Papua New Guinea
Virgin Islands
India
Turkey
Cameroon
Albania
Japan
Sierra Leone
Kazakhstan
Kiribati
Jamaica
Morocco
Guatemala
Greece
Ukraine
Ecuador
Pakistan (apparently)
Costa Rica
Gibraltar
Togo
Slovenia
Switzerland
Poland
Oman
Argentina
Trinidad and Tobago
Northern Mariana Islands
Denmark
Kosovo
Jordan
Australia
Croatia
Marshall Islands
Russia
Hong Kong
Kyrgyzstan
Bermuda
South Korea
Uzbekistan
Thailand
Pitcairn Islands
Kenya
Bhutan
Georgia
Taiwan
Barbados
Faroe Islands
Serbia
Belize
Czech Republic
Djibouti
Cyprus
Malta
Malaysia
Spain
Iran
Zimbabwe (guffaw)
Montenegro
Nepal
Italy
Paraguay
Tonga
Nauru
Equatorial Guinea
Serbia (again)
Dominican Republic
Kuwait
Lebanon
Macedonia
Mongolia
Grenada
Cambodia
Vanuatu
Angola
Rwanda
Swaziland
Austria
Belarus
Maldives
Lithuania
Canada
Azerbaijan
Zambia
Dominica
Palau
and New Zealand will be having theirs tomorrow.

2007

2008
Put a puppet on it.
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BeatleBarb
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I wonder what kind of mud slinging went on in the Maldives?

Zimbabwe?
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BeatleBarb
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JeffLynnesBeard
Nov 7 2008, 05:27 AM
Analysis of the 'yes' on Prop. 8 in California in my newspaper this morning has explained that it is probably as a result of a higher African-American turnout in the election, many of whom are socially conservative, enough to tip the balance in favour of this proposition passing. That seems to make sense to me.

Of course, I'm disappointed in the outcome as it is a blow for true equality, but in a democracy, you have to accept the will of the people. There are legal challenges to the outcome of the ballot, but I think that those who support gay marriage would probably be better served by waiting until they can get this issue legitimately voted on again, that way they wouldn't be forcing the issue against the wishes of the majority of Californians who voted.

You have to respect the democratic process, not just when it goes your way.
I agree that the process should be respected, and for that very reason, if it is legally challengeable, I say why wait for another vote?
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JeffLynnesBeard
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I'm with you on the cause, Barb, but the fact of the matter is that if Prop. 8 had been defeated, it's probable that nobody would have been challenging the legitimacy of the proposition then.

It was a narrowly fought thing, but if the majority of Californians who voted, voted for Prop. 8, then - like it or not - it should stand.

I agree that there may be other legal avenues open to those who seek equality for gay couples and it may be achieved without another state proposition (personally, I believe it should be fought for Federally in the Supreme court, rather than on a state-by-state basis), but when it comes down to it, on this occasion, the people of California were asked and they voted.

The outcome is, of course, very disappointing.
...and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
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